A 'Wonderful Wagon': hmmmm......

[Prometheus]

I never got around to building one of these until yesterday. I doubt very much if I'll ever build one again, either. Five different types of adhesive [CA, PVA, liquid poly, impact and epoxy] conspired to hold everything in place however, although the fold around corners were absolute blighters.

 

It is extremely free running, but with replacement wheels in better bearings. The original Peco wheelsets were horrors and appeared to be crudely lathed aluminium affairs which ran in deep brass bearings that were hardly any better. The axle holes were so deep I simply inserted replacement plain bearings into the original bearing cups.

 

The kit cost 50p, very recently, in a junk shop. Having assembled it, one can see that not much has changed since 1954, although then they must have been the bee's knees....

 

 

 

 

Those brake levers do stick out rather but the buffers and axle boxes spring rather satisfyingly. I'm not sure that I'd call the latter compensation however. Anyway, a nice little period piece.

 

Tony

Edited September 7, 2016 by Prometheus

[Il Grifone]

The original wheels for these kits were pinpointed nylon (available as 'scale' A/HD (BRMSB/Dublo) and 'coarse' R/T (Rovex/Trix)) running in brass bearing cups. They did tend to wobble somewhat. Later ones have a plastic bearing and take either Peco's wheels (now redesigned) or proper metal axles and are very free running.

 

The axle springing is rather too stiff to be much use and the buffer springing does tend to jam (probably flash in the moulding). Early buffer heads were metal, but they now have an awful plastic version.

 

Having built quite a few of these, I would agree that the corners are a problem to get sharp enough. The earliest ones had a body made from ply which needed trimming to fit together (My first attempt (Saxa Salt) was a dismal failure because of this*), but around 1960 they changed to a die-cast body with plastic solebars and extensions for the sides to make  the 7 plank and van versions. The detail is a bit coarse and flat as a result of being stamped card, but was good for it's time (plastic moulding has spoiled us). The original cost was 7/6d (or at least it was when I built my first one -1958 IIRC), which was expensive at the time, but considering the wheels cost 1/4d and the couplings 1/6d individually, not too bad.

 

I believe some of the printed cards are still available, as are the underframe parts.

 

* The underframe was recycled for a gas cylinder wagon and a SHARK brake van. Both scratch built by yours truly and the less said about either the better....

 

EDIT:

To put the first 'and' in the right place and make sense.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

Thanks for that - I was interested in the history of these wagons.

 

I guess the wheels that came with the kit may have been the original purchaser's substitutes then, although they were in a sealed grease proof paper-type bag. Anyway, they've gone ! The buffers on this one are metal and one shows some signs of jamming already. The sides could be 'improved' [i suppose] by gently scribing between the planks with a soft pencil to introduce some shadow. I'll leave well alone however.

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

Weathering is a bit of a problem as the card absorbs the solvent (rather like blotting paper) - possibly a coat of varnish first?

 

The original wheelsets have long axles (as was the standard back then) and are stamped with their maker's name and the standard (as if it isn't obvious).

 

There were several series over the years - I'll try and dig mine out and post some photos (famous last words).

Edited September 8, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

Likewise - long, rounded axles.

 

Tony

[Prometheus]

And here they are - the axles are 28mm long. there are no manufacturer's markings.

 

 

Tony

[phil_sutters]

I had one or two POs back in the sixties - Mendip Mountain Quarries comes to mind, appropriately as our layout was on Mendip. I am surprised that you needed multiple glues on the one you have just made. To my recollection the only glue that was needed was something like EvoStick to glue the printed and embossed card wrapper to the diecast body. The rest of the assembly was with a soldering iron, or similar hot implement, squidging the polythene type soft plastic pegs, from the solebars and buffer and coupling assemblies, into rivets, inside the die cast body. The 'W' irons were in pressed steel and you turned their tabs over inside the body with a screw driver or similar. I bought a Garswood PO in a job lot recently and that has the same construction. Mind you I never built a van so the assembly might be different.

I subsequently used a number of the chassis under scratch built SDJR goods wagons. They were a lot more presentable than the Hornby Dublo and Triang chassis of the era - the Dublo ones had solid webs between the brake gear and the solebars and the Triang ones had open ended axle boxes. I still have some of each - so I can compare the quality. One problem they did have was that, like Airfix's little soldiers, the flexible plastic didn't like enamel paints, so painting the solebar details took a bit of care and persistence.

As for the original wheels, I had a feeling they were nylon moulded ones at the period. Mine all seem to have been rewheeled with metal ones, partly to give them a bit more weight, I think. The scratchbuilt-bodied ones were made from Plasticard and were fairly light.

 

9/9/2016 - I never thought of my 1960s rolling stock as Vintage or Collectable - just those boxes of old railway stuff in the garage! Mind you I do have plans for some of it!

Edited September 9, 2016 by phil_sutters

[BG John]

And here they are - the axles are 28mm long. there are no manufacturer's markings.

 

 

Tony

They're Jackson aren't they?

[Il Grifone]

They are almost certainly Jackson - the standard metal wheel of the time. The rounded rather than pinpoint axles run rather less than freely in the Peco bearing cupsas the axle rests on the sides of the cup rather than the point - not that the shape of the cup is ideal as the end is rounded rather than conical. That said most of mine ended up with these. As said before, the weight is useful* and metal wheels 'roll' better than plastic (and pick up less crud).

 

* Peco promoted the wagons for their light weight - "For long trains". (Not at 7/6d a shot - at least on my budget!)

 

The first series was also advertised as "Doors can be made to open". IIRC this involved cutting out the door aperture and cotton thread hinges....

 

The assembly of the vans consisted of extended plastic sides and a plastic roof. Unfortunately the plastic is nylon which is resistant to adhesives. (In the first series salt wagons the roof assembly was card. I seem to recall mine got squashed quite quickly hastening its demise and replcement with the Dublo model. I did start a replacement 'Saxa Salt'. This, like many most of my projects, stalled and is unlikely to ever get finished.  Acquiring a Bachmann body really finished it off - I need to build it an underframe....

 

I have got my wagons out of storage for the threatened photos....

[Golden Fleece 30]

Jackson wheels came in nickel plated brass for bogie and tender wheels, chemically browned for coach and wagons then for some silly reason plain soft plain aluminium which are the ones I remember. There may have been other variations. Are the above ones the ally wagon ones? As the photo shows these had spokes that were recessed to take a plastic spoked disc that was very hard to fit and times the spokes did not line up with the wheel ones. I seem to remember that if you did fit one then it was proud of the turned wheel. The spokes I think were stamped out as there was always a burr on the backs of them.

Edited September 9, 2016 by Golden Fleece 30

[Prometheus]

Yes, these are the aluminium ones, complete with burrs as you have experienced. They are astonishingly light too, you could be forgiven for thinking that they might float !

 

Tony

[BG John]

Good olde aluminium wheels! I never did get the loco I built with Stephen Poole aluminium tyred driving wheels to work.

[2750Papyrus]

PECO "Wonderful Wagons" are one of the few things I can afford to collect.  I first saw them with my Dad at a MRC Easter Show at the Central Hall in, I think, 1954.  Having "done" the exhibition, we returned to the PECO stand to buy a couple of kits but they were not yet available for sale - delays between anouncements/displays and issue are nothing new!  Eventually, my Dad managed to buy two (I suspect he didn't admit to Mum how expensive they were - 7/6 when a Trix or Dublo open wagon would have been around 4/6).  He built them using a soldering iron to melt over the plastic pips and an adhesive called "Durofix" for other assembly.  We thought they were marvellous - truly "wonderful" as at that time, our Trix wagons were printed tinplate with no underframe detail at all.  Here were wagons with underframe detail, bodies with 3D relief (the embossed card) and novelties like sprung suspension and buffers, even though the plastic was very visco-elastic. And the colours.... by this time, coal wagons on BR were uniformly liveried in coal dust.  I knew from our Trix "Charingons" and "Hinchcliffe" wagons that at one time PO wagons were dark red - but these new wagons were yellow and green (C & G Ayres) and pale yellow (Hickling)! 

 

Later on, these two were joined by a Mangers salt wagon but by then, HD and Trix were making wagons by die-casting and injection moulding, so the PECO fleet did not grow further.

 

Fast forward 40 or 50 years and I think I have managed to collect all that were made, as they were available cheaply at toyfairs and on E-Bay.  Some were bought as kits which i made up, but the bulk were bought assembled. I cannot help but think of the previous builders and owners, who must by now nearly all have gone to the Great Heavenly Railway (with pearly gates at the terminus rather than a Doric Arch!).  I started to convert them to tensionlock couplings from the original Simplex, though the project has stalled for a while, but to be honest, the original wheels (and I think they are all moulded) need replacing as well.  But one day, I will run them as a train behind the BG or Tango. 

 

The last time I looked at the PECO catalogue, the only 00 Wonderful Wagons available as complete kits were tankers but many of the embossed cards were still available, as were the underframes..........

[Nearholmer]

Did you get the Charles and Diana wedding special?

 

I bought one at the time, stored it for blooming ages unmade, then got rid of it in a rash clear-out moment, which I began to regret almost instantly.

 

K

[Il Grifone]

AH! two horrors recalled 'Durofix and aluminium wheels..

 

Back then we had 'Durofix', 'Seccotine' and my favourite 'Lepage's Balsa cement (the latter did actually stick things together). Woolworth's did a stuff called cold solder which was reputed to stick metal....

 

I can't remember which I used for my Peco wagon - probably the balsa cement. This substance contracts as it dries so would not have helped the success (or rather lack of it) of the project.

 

I neglected to mention that the earlier wagons had a die cast floor/solebar unit to which card solebars were to be attached so at least they matched the bodywork. Later ones had plastic solebars ('wood' for 9' wheelbase and 'steel' for 10'), which gained in realism, but were the devil to colour match to the body. The brakegear came with two sets of brake blocks and the set not required had to be cut off (no problem with the 9' wheelbase, but tricky (at least for me) for the 10').

 

Pre-war there were Trix P.O. wagons for 'Trix' in yellow and Bassett-Lowke' in grey as well as 'Charingtons' and 'Hinchliffes', Fictitious of course, but I suppose legitimate as devised for the companies concerned. These two are relatively rare and valuable today. In the sixties they produced a range of plastic P.O. wagons. The body is a hybrid scale but acceptable for 4mm, though it lacks a curb rail. The underframe is rather less satisfactory, but makes up for this in its extreme free running

[Prometheus]

My earlier comment about the use of five different adhesives in this construction may have caused some surprise !

 

For the record then, epoxy resin to secure the underframe parts to the inside of the diecast lower body unit, and also to attach the Bachmann couplings to the lower part of the buffer beam, liquid poly to attach the roof to the upper body unit, superglue to attach the brake gear to the underframe, the brake levers to the sides and the completed upper body unit to its diecast base, impact adhesive to secure the printed sides to the body and finally PVA to ensure that the fold-around corners stayed put.

 

I looked but I couldn't find any use for Sellotape !

 

Is this a record ?!

 

All joking aside, whilst I said I'd not build another, there is one coal wagon that I'm hunting down, the Craven Llewellyn version. But that's it. Absolutely it. Life is problematic enough assembling old K's wagon kits.....

 

Tony

[bertiedog]

 

Woolworth's did a stuff called cold solder which was reputed to stick metal....

It did not!.....it was cellulose paste with aluminium powder in it....er...basically coloured balsa cement...........

 

Stephen.

[melmerby]

Good olde aluminium wheels! I never did get the loco I built with Stephen Poole aluminium tyred driving wheels to work.

Are those the ones with ally tyres on plastic centres?

 

I built a chassis for a GWR big prairie using those and it went down the track in a shower of sparks from the pickups!

 

Keith

[sagaguy]

Did you get the Charles and Diana wedding special?

 

I bought one at the time, stored it for blooming ages unmade, then got rid of it in a rash clear-out moment, which I began to regret almost instantly.

 

K

There`s one here if you want to replace it!!!.

 

                   http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/PECO-WONDERFUL-WAGON-KIT-MINERAL-WAGON-ROYAL-WEDDING-1981-OO-GAUGE-BOXED-/371730231123?hash=item56

 

                            Ray.

[Nearholmer]

Who knows, it may even be the one I got rid of, having travelled, unmade, through many modeller's store cupboards over the years!

 

K

[2750Papyrus]

It did not!.....it was cellulose paste with aluminium powder in it....er...basically coloured balsa cement...........

 

Stephen.

 

Crikey, yes, I'd forgotten that!  It was a great disappointment to a 9 or 10 year old frightened of a soldering iron!

[BG John]

Are those the ones with ally tyres on plastic centres?

 

I built a chassis for a GWR big prairie using those and it went down the track in a shower of sparks from the pickups!

 

Keith

Yup! Brilliant idea wasn't it! Mine's a big prairie too. Airfix body on a Wrenn N2 chassis with the dreaded wheels. I don't remember how, or even if, it ran. As my first serious bit of loco building, it's on my current to-do list to finish, but I suspect the wheels will need replacing.

[melmerby]

Yup! Brilliant idea wasn't it! Mine's a big prairie too. Airfix body on a Wrenn N2 chassis with the dreaded wheels. I don't remember how, or even if, it ran. As my first serious bit of loco building, it's on my current to-do list to finish, but I suspect the wheels will need replacing.

I started with an Airfix Kit body but later bought a S/H Graham Farish die-cast loco.

One of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRAHAM-FARISH-OO-GAUGE-GWR-GREEN-2-6-2-PRAIRIE-TANK-LOCOMOTIVE-6103/191411957334?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3De8b9e6e84a4046fab6be2fc726292fd3%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D14%26rkt%3D17%26sd%3D232065296882

The original chassis only had pickups on two wheels, one of which was the flangeless slightly undersize centre one. so I decided to make a new one out of brass using those wheels.

 

The bits are now all in the spares box

 

Keith

Edited September 10, 2016 by melmerby

[Il Grifone]

It did not!.....it was cellulose paste with aluminium powder in it....er...basically coloured balsa cement...........

 

Stephen.

 

That's why I said, 'Reputed'. Like most adhesives then (and now come to that - pound shop 'superglue' for instance), its attachment powers were limited. In its defence, it was better than some.

 

I recently attempted to fix a Peco underframe to a modified Lima mineral wagon body (one tends to collect junk). The pegs that are supposed to be welded over inside the wagon had been cut off (not sure how this came about), so I attached all the brakegear and solebars with gel 'superglue'. It seemed OK for about five minutes and then fell apart. I shall have to devise some other method (involving pins in holes drilled through both parts?).

 

My attempt at a motorised Kitmaster prairie (it was that long ago) was a dismal failure. For some unknown reason, I decided to use a Tri-ang R59 2-6-2T chassis. I divided the cylinder block and stuck the two cylinders to the block using Evo-stik (then new, at least to me). All worked well until the joint failed....

Tri-ang's plastic is as unstickable as Peco's (nylon in both cases?). Why I didn't just buy the above Farish Prairie I don't know. The eccentric pickup system would probably have thrown me at the time though. The one I'm sorting out at the moment (see the Farish thread in the next few days) will either have a long metal strip contacting the trailing driver on top or one linking the centre and trailing wheels underneath. 

 

I had one of the Craven Llewyllyn wagons (one of the few end door wagons in the first Peco series). This was a more successful attempt after the Saxa failure. I copied its livery onto a Trix mineral wagon (which I still have), but what happened to it afterwards I don't know.

 

Now K's kits are another story....

Edited September 10, 2016 by Il Grifone

[BG John]

I started with an Airfix Kit body but later bought a S/H Graham Farish die-cast loco.

One of these: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GRAHAM-FARISH-OO-GAUGE-GWR-GREEN-2-6-2-PRAIRIE-TANK-LOCOMOTIVE-6103/191411957334?_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIC.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3De8b9e6e84a4046fab6be2fc726292fd3%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D14%26rkt%3D17%26sd%3D232065296882

The original chassis only had pickups on two wheels, one of which was the flangeless slightly undersize centre one. so I decided to make a new one out of brass using those wheels.

 

The bits are now all in the spares box

 

Keith

Mine's in my box of loco projects, still in one piece. It needs a good clean up, the wheels sorted, and further work on the body, but might turn into quite a nice loco. I've posted these before in other topics. Note the Jackson wheels, with and without insert.

 

I'm afraid I don't have any Peco wagons for it to haul, so we're wandering off topic a bit!!

Edited September 10, 2016 by BG John