RailWest Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 Very nice, but intrigued - which Radstock signals are these going to be please, and for what period? I recognise what is probably the West box Up Starting, and maybe an early version of the Up Advanced Starting, and I would guess the 'lofty bracket' will be the Down Home? I shall be interested to see the slot gear in due course :-) I have a suspicion I may know of the layout in question...... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 10 minutes ago, RailWest said: Very nice, but intrigued - which Radstock signals are these going to be please, and for what period? I recognise what is probably the West box Up Starting, and maybe an early version of the Up Advanced Starting, and I would guess the 'lofty bracket' will be the Down Home? I shall be interested to see the slot gear in due course :-) I have a suspicion I may know of the layout in question...... Hahaha, slot gear! If I fit it I doubt it would be working! I'd have to check my notes for the correct names for the signals but I suspect you are right with each one. The one with a stop arm and shunt underneath was shortened, possibly during the BR period and lost its shunt arm. I'm working to photos only with these ones so heights are somewhat guesstimated but the layout in question is set in the 1930s. And most of it is in a garden! Cheers JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 14, 2019 Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) The date for abolition of the subsidiary arm under the Up Advanced Starting is not known, although it was still in place in 1937 and probably (at best guess) was removed circa-1947. The Down Home has always intrigued me 'cos of the odd style of main post. Most photos are taken too far away for clarity, but a couple of closer ones seen a few years ago suggested that it was a normal lattice post encased for most of the way up by some additional iron/framework. Whether this was an original design, or some form of later 'grandfathering', to give additional support is not known. Have you managed to establish (or been provided with the evidence) whether or not the subsidiary arms had 'reduced' aspects - ie the spectacle plates were blanked over almost entirely, with just a small hole in the middle? This was certainly the case with the later version for the Up Starting, which was converted to upper-quadrant circa-1936, but evidence for earlier full-size LQ ringed arms is more limited and none of the Radstock photos that I have seen are sufficient clear/sharp to make a firm judgement. But as long as your customers are happy...:-) Edited June 14, 2019 by RailWest Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted June 14, 2019 Author Share Posted June 14, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, RailWest said: The date for abolition of the subsidiary arm under the Up Advanced Starting is not known, although it was still in place in 1937 and probably (at best guess) was removed circa-1947. The Down Home has always intrigued me 'cos of the odd style of main post. Most photos are taken too far away for clarity, but a couple of closer ones seen a few years ago suggested that it was a normal lattice post encased for most of the way up by some additional iron/framework. Whether this was an original design, or some form of later 'grandfathering', to give additional support is not known. Have you managed to establish (or been provided with the evidence) whether or not the subsidiary arms had 'reduced' aspects - ie the spectacle plates were blanked over almost entirely, with just a small hole in the middle? This was certainly the case with the later version for the Up Starting, which was converted to upper-quadrant circa-1936, but evidence for earlier full-size LQ ringed arms is more limited and none of the Radstock photos that I have seen are sufficient clear/sharp to make a firm judgement. But as long as your customers are happy...:-) As you suggest, I don't have a clear enough picture to see if any of the aspects were reduced on the subs. Customers specified all lower quadrants too. The main mast on the bracket signal seems have additional vertical bracing and a series of internal square plates which quite frankly are going to be a right royal PITA to fit but as I'm getting some etches done for it and the brackets, I should be able to sort something out! JF Edited June 14, 2019 by Jon Fitness Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 I think the lower quadrant arms never had reduced aspects. The Southern (LSWR) had a different method of making sure no stray light went through the clear lens, in the form of a blinder (it's quite evident in photos), the spectacle itself being quite standard. I don't think the blinder would have worked on the UQs as they would probably foul the movement of the arm, hence the change in design. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stephen Freeman said: I think the lower quadrant arms never had reduced aspects. The Southern (LSWR) had a different method of making sure no stray light went through the clear lens, in the form of a blinder (it's quite evident in photos), the spectacle itself being quite standard. I don't think the blinder would have worked on the UQs as they would probably foul the movement of the arm, hence the change in design. Two points, as I think we are talking about different things here.... 1. As regards 'stray light', on UQ arms the equivalent to the LQ "Annett's Shield" appears to have taken the form of a rectangular plate fixed to the front of the post so as to be behind the 'green' aspect when the arm was 'on'. It's not obvious in many photos unless you look closely. 2. The 'reduced aspects' IMHO were for a different purpose from the Annett's Shield, namely to reduce the size of the light so as not to outshine the main arm aspect. Although the situation with regard to the ringed arms is unclear in respect of the full-size LQ version, there is photo evidence that at least one example existed. With the smaller 'striped' subsidiary LQ arms most, if not all, examples on the S&DJR definitely had reduced aspects (see example from Glastonbury). Edited June 15, 2019 by RailWest 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sdjr/signals.html Most comprehensive info I have found to date 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted June 15, 2019 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 15, 2019 51 minutes ago, Stephen Freeman said: http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/railco/sdjr/signals.html Most comprehensive info I have found to date Of course its author could have linked it if he wasn't spending his time answering questions (couldn't you Chris? ) But it is an excellent site and the best for S&D Jt R information. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 Of course then there was the LQ bracket signal at Barnstaple (sort of LSWR/SR/GWR) which I understand was "interesting" in more ways than one and falls into the category of a prototype for everything. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 5 hours ago, The Stationmaster said: Of course its author could have linked it if he wasn't spending his time answering questions (couldn't you Chris? ) But it is an excellent site and the best for S&D Jt R information. Ah, but I was trying to modest, and trying not to tell people things that they might already know....:-) 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 15, 2019 Share Posted June 15, 2019 5 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said: Of course then there was the LQ bracket signal at Barnstaple (sort of LSWR/SR/GWR) which I understand was "interesting" in more ways than one and falls into the category of a prototype for everything. Which bracket did you have in mind please at which Barnstaple station? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted June 15, 2019 Author Share Posted June 15, 2019 Every day's a school day on here! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 13 hours ago, RailWest said: Which bracket did you have in mind please at which Barnstaple station? The one on SEMG - I think it's the one with GWR finials, with a reduced aspect LSWR LQ full sized red spectacle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 1 hour ago, Stephen Freeman said: The one on SEMG - I think it's the one with GWR finials, with a reduced aspect LSWR LQ full sized red spectacle. I think I have found the one that you mean eventually, the Up Homes coming from Fremington? What makes you think they are GWR finials please, I've never seen anything to suggest that it's anything other than an old L&SWR signal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 I may be mistaken but I have it in mind that there was something like that at Barnstaple, perhaps ex GWR arms on an exLSWR post maybe Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Freeman Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 I may be mistaken but I have it in mind that there was something like that at Barnstaple, perhaps ex GWR arms on an exLSWR post maybe. Just had another look and now convinced I was right first time! The other things to note are that the dolls appear to be timber rather than lattice although the main post is lattice. Perhaps BR subsituted the WR finials along with the the dolls, yet kept the Stevens arms? The photo is dated 1970. http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_06.html 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 16, 2019 Share Posted June 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Stephen Freeman said: I may be mistaken but I have it in mind that there was something like that at Barnstaple, perhaps ex GWR arms on an exLSWR post maybe. Just had another look and now convinced I was right first time! The other things to note are that the dolls appear to be timber rather than lattice although the main post is lattice. Perhaps BR subsituted the WR finials along with the the dolls, yet kept the Stevens arms? The photo is dated 1970. http://www.semgonline.com/proto/semaphore_06.html If you go back in history you will find that that bracket was a circa-1920s replacement for an earlier all-timber bracket. It is quite possible that the replacement had a new lattice post, but re-used the old wooden dolls and finials. The dolls seen in the SEMG photo are the same IMHO as those which existed in SR days and appear to be no different than those used on many other ex-L&SWR wooden posts signals and certainly not (G)WR style. Edited June 16, 2019 by RailWest 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 On 15/06/2019 at 23:19, Jon Fitness said: Every day's a school day on here! Right-oh. Simple question; having got the white dot and black ring on the front, I'm not sure what should be on the back. Is it a corresponding black dot or a black stripe? Thanks in anticipation, JF 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted June 18, 2019 Share Posted June 18, 2019 A black dot [ read my notes :-) ] Looking nice. Here's a real one...excuse the awful editing ! 2 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted June 18, 2019 Author Share Posted June 18, 2019 20 minutes ago, RailWest said: A black dot [ read my notes :-) ] Looking nice. Here's a real one...excuse the awful editing ! Lovely. Thanks for that, I can finish it off now! Cheers JF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 Hi All, Except for the weathering I've now completed 2 of the three Radstock signals. The third one needs me to finish some etch artwork off and get it etched. Hopefully I'll get it right first time! Here's a pic of the third one for illustrative purposes only. No copyright problems intended of course! More soon.. JF 5 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 They are seriously good !! However, I'm a little puzzled why the paint scheme for the two sub arms appears to differ from the main arms in having more black/less red on the blades? The sub in the photo of the Down Home bracket was not like that, nor the one on the Up Starting as seen in a 1928 photo. I'd be interested to know the source of the photo of the bracket signal please, by far the best that I have seen of it in colour. It may be just an illusion, but I reckon you can just about make out the rivets holding the 'ring' to the blade. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted July 14, 2019 Author Share Posted July 14, 2019 Many thanks for the compliment! The main arms I did as metal bladed on which the blade is bolted to the front surface of the spec plate casting. The wooden ones (correct me if I'm wrong) are sandwiched between the casting and a plate at the back and I've done the the subs as"wooden". It was more down to what I had in stock! The colour pic of the bracket was supplied to me by Terry, my customer for the signals 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RailWest Posted July 14, 2019 Share Posted July 14, 2019 To be honest, they probably all differed from time to time anyway, but it's the usual problem of having (a) a very limited stock of photos from that era and (b) the difficulty of judging the respective colours in a B&W photo. The arm of which I posted a photo previously had an all-red spectacle casting on the front, but a photo of the arm in-situ shows that the casting was black at that time. There were some wooden arms which were noticeably wider than the 'slot' in the casting and had to be narrowed-down at their RH end to fit, and the casting did not extend very far to the left of the pivot. The attachment here shows the back of the same arm; as you can see, the plate extended out over the blade for some distance and IMHO the black paint on the back of the arm extended further away from the pivot than it did at the front. The other attachment, although of a 'wrong road' arm rather than a ringed arm, gives a good idea how short the castings could be.... 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Fitness Posted August 3, 2019 Author Share Posted August 3, 2019 Here's some artwork I've prepared for etching. I took out the coloured layers for clarity. Apart from the large bracket and the lattice post which are for a commission, it's all experimental stuff! I'm hopefully going to fill a few gaps in what's available for signal building! JF 5 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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