Hornby GWR Autocoach

[ndg910]

Hornby are gradually refreshing their fleet of restaurant cars. The LMS 12wheeler is still reasonable, a new Mk1 restaurant buffet is in the works and an SR restaurant appeared a couple of years back. That leaves (if am not mistaken) a new LNER restaurant and a new GWR restaurant to replace the Railroad version. Restaurants and Buffets are price sensitive animals as most people only buy one or perhaps two and the price has to reflect the smaller production run. So Hornby, how about a GWR bow ended restaurant? The existing bow ended under frame will be similar and doesn’t the Dart Valley have an original coach to measure? 

[The Johnster]

19 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Now that Hornby have released the Large Prairie, they might want to scout about to see what they can make next. Might it be a pannier? preferably an earlier version, so as not to directly compete with the Bachmann model.  Therefore, what about a 517 or a Metro tank? Both are smaller, and might conceivably complement the Hornby range, or, bite the bullet, and make an all-sing & dancing 14xx autotank. 

My constant banging on about Collett Suburbans eventually (to my amazement and delight even if they weren't the 5 coach South Wales coaches turned up Donalds, so these are worth flagging up.  An all singing all dancing 14xx has the option of being produced as a 58xx and the chassis can be used for the Stafford Road 3D 517, and, it having been produced by Hornby, Simon Kohler will regard it as rightfully their loco in the same way that he did with the Terrier when Rails stepped on his toes.

 

But I'm going to put a word in for another Hornby staple, since  Triang Hornby days, the 2721.  The chassis of this has been improved over the years but is still fundamentally the incorrect for everything equally generic Jinty.  The body is credible in some ways; not many RTR locos had separate tank side handrails when it was introduced, or full backplate detail, but the boiler top furniture is hopeless (chimney should be parallel but tapers the wrong way, and the safety valve cover is not much cop) and the thing retains it's 1960s under boiler skirts.  A retooling is arguably 50 years overdue, which presents an opportunity for it to be a serious hi fi reworking.  The chassis  block might even be viable for topfeedless 57xx, 8750, 54xx, 74xx, to bang an old and well worn drum, or maybe saddle tank 2721.  Simon can keep the old tooling in Railroad production if he wants; it'd make a nice train set with the shorty clerestories.

 

It also occurs that a Metro is a good chance to introduce working inside motion, but watch the price pass £200.  Metros present production problems in coming in 3 sizes, and H are bound to produce the one you didn't want, which is worse than not having one at all...

 

All I have to do now is persuade somebody to make almost any (but preferably Diagram N) pre A28 trailer, an A43 cyclops with A44 all third, an E147 flat ended Tondu B set, a 44xx, and a Collett 1938 31xx.  How about a diagram N trailer to go with a 517 or a Metro?  Wishlisting, moi! 

Edited August 16, 2020 by The Johnster

[Steamport Southport]

Triang days?

 

The 2721 came out in 1980 which was a decade after Triang had gone. It has absolutely nothing of Triang in it. The last new models that had Triang parts was the awful J83 and King Arthur. Both very short lived, although the J83 reappeared with the new chassis a few years afterwards.

 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=145

 

Which means it's newer than the 14XX and autotrailer by two years.

 

 

Jason

 

 

[melmerby]

6 hours ago, ndg910 said:

Hornby are gradually refreshing their fleet of restaurant cars. The LMS 12wheeler is still reasonable,

Reasonable for what though?

Lack of detail, runs too high, cutaway solebars so that 12 wheel bogies can go around the tightest trainset curves. etc. etc.

IMHO it's rubbish.

I bought one to run with the Hornby Stanier coaches. I wish I hadn't, it stands out like a sore thumb!

I've lowered it, filled in the sides so it looks better but it's still below par.

[Steamport Southport]

2 minutes ago, melmerby said:

Reasonable for what though?

Lack of detail, runs too high, cutaway solebars so that 12 wheel bogies can go around the tightest trainset curves. etc. etc.

IMHO it's rubbish.

I bought one to run with the Hornby Stanier coaches. I wish I hadn't, it stands out like a sore thumb!

I've lowered it, filled in the sides so it looks better but it's still below par.

 

Look for an original with the scale chassis. Hard to find, but worth it.

 

 

But aren't people paying attention?

 

Hornby have already announced the catering vehicles for the Coronation Scot. Expect them to appear as regular versions in the next year or two.

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

Triang days?

 

The 2721 came out in 1980 which was a decade after Triang had gone. It has absolutely nothing of Triang in it.

 

 

Jason

 

 

Apart from a reworked part plastic version of the Jinty chassis & XO3 motor and it's made by a company called Rovex.

Edited August 16, 2020 by melmerby

[David Bigcheeseplant]

I have made a 3D printed part that fits behind the bufferbeam to represent the autogear, I do a similar one for the luggage end too, these suit the Bachmann and Airfix models. 

[tomparryharry]

1 hour ago, David Bigcheeseplant said:

I have made a 3D printed part that fits behind the bufferbeam to represent the autogear, I do a similar one for the luggage end too, these suit the Bachmann and Airfix models. 

 

Nice, nice, nice!

[tomparryharry]

I'd surmise that we won't see a Metro tank, even though it does well on Mr. McDermotts lists every time. The problem is, there isn't an extant example to be scanned, which is the industry path nowadays. As far as the 14xx is concerned, there is a little problem about Hornby releasing the 'newer' version a couple of years back, to muted response. 

 

Our 2721 (or, very early 57xx) would be a nice addition to the line-up. The sticking point might be that Bachmann have a re-issue of a 8750 every year or 3.   Or perhaps, the saddle tank version instead?  I won't wishlist; I've got enough stuff going on well into my dotage. 

 

As far as Stanier coaches are concerned, well.... I would suggest that the hapless model isn't rubbish, but I'll certainly agree it's certainly below par. Remember the watchword is constructive observation, even if a model is carp. An object lesson is the newest Toad van, compared to what we had only a few short years back .

 

The wallet is the deciding factor here. If a model is 'not up to standard', don't buy it!

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[tomparryharry]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

My constant banging on about Collett Suburbans eventually (to my amazement and delight even if they weren't the 5 coach South Wales coaches turned up Donalds, so these are worth flagging up.  An all singing all dancing 14xx has the option of being produced as a 58xx and the chassis can be used for the Stafford Road 3D 517, and, it having been produced by Hornby, Simon Kohler will regard it as rightfully their loco in the same way that he did with the Terrier when Rails stepped on his toes.

 

But I'm going to put a word in for another Hornby staple, since  Triang Hornby days, the 2721.  The chassis of this has been improved over the years but is still fundamentally the incorrect for everything equally generic Jinty.  The body is credible in some ways; not many RTR locos had separate tank side handrails when it was introduced, or full backplate detail, but the boiler top furniture is hopeless (chimney should be parallel but tapers the wrong way, and the safety valve cover is not much cop) and the thing retains it's 1960s under boiler skirts.  A retooling is arguably 50 years overdue, which presents an opportunity for it to be a serious hi fi reworking.  The chassis  block might even be viable for topfeedless 57xx, 8750, 54xx, 74xx, to bang an old and well worn drum, or maybe saddle tank 2721.  Simon can keep the old tooling in Railroad production if he wants; it'd make a nice train set with the shorty clerestories.

 

It also occurs that a Metro is a good chance to introduce working inside motion, but watch the price pass £200.  Metros present production problems in coming in 3 sizes, and H are bound to produce the one you didn't want, which is worse than not having one at all...

 

All I have to do now is persuade somebody to make almost any (but preferably Diagram N) pre A28 trailer, an A43 cyclops with A44 all third, an E147 flat ended Tondu B set, a 44xx, and a Collett 1938 31xx.  How about a diagram N trailer to go with a 517 or a Metro?  Wishlisting, moi! 

 

We are all guilty of wishlisting here. By & large, it only works to a degree. I too, am guilty as a wish-lister. Things need to get inventive if you/we want to ask for these things. I don't have an answer, mind.....

 

Ian. 

[The Johnster]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Triang days?

 

The 2721 came out in 1980 which was a decade after Triang had gone. It has absolutely nothing of Triang in it. The last new models that had Triang parts was the awful J83 and King Arthur. Both very short lived, although the J83 reappeared with the new chassis a few years afterwards.

 

 

http://www.hornbyguide.com/item_year_details.asp?itemyearid=145

 

Which means it's newer than the 14XX and autotrailer by two years.

 

 

Jason

 

 

Quite correct, I should have said Hornby!  It did have the generic incorrect Jinty chassis, only improved from the original R52 by the inclusion of open backed wheels/

 

25 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

The wallet is the deciding factor here. If a model is 'not up to standard', don't buy it!

Good Grief wherever did you get that idea from, Ian.  If wallets were deciding factors I wouldn't have a railway at all!  

 

You are right of course and my problem is my inability to resist buying inexpensive models that are not up to standard and spending ages and money making them the best I can manage; 2761 and the more recent 'Cyclops' are classic examples.  I'd buy a Hornby Peckett or a Hattons AB if I had the money; I rate them as 'up to standard'; it's the wallet that's below par...

[melmerby]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Quite correct, I should have said Hornby!  It did have the generic incorrect Jinty chassis, only improved from the original R52 by the inclusion of open backed wheels/

 

It's not the same as the "generic" Jinty chassis as the motor was moved forward to drive the front axle, AFAIK up until then the Jinty drove on the middle axle.

The service sheet supplied with it has both types of chassis shown.

Edited August 16, 2020 by melmerby

[Ruffnut Thorston]

The Tri-ang Hornby Pannier Tank loco is the later cab type 57XX, class 8750.

 

This was the last loco to be tooled before the change to Hornby Railways, after the failure of Lines Bros.

 

The solid wheels went back in 1961, replaced by see through wheels, except on the black PrIncess, R.50, which was dropped in 1962...

 

There have been various 0-6-0 “Jinty” type chassis.

 

The original plate frame with weight blocks, C1953-1960.

The X.03 (No oil pads)  or X.04 (with oil pads) motor drives the centre axle in the first types of chassis...

 

Cast chassis block with integral mounting for Seuthe type smoke unit, 1961-1963.

 

Cast chassis with flat area to the “front” on steam locos (The rear when used for the R.156 Diesel Shunter), this taking a small Synchrosmoke unit, or for non smoke fitted, and R.156 Diesel Shunter, a cast weight block. 1964-
 

(some later Diesel Shunters use a B12 Chassis block with a plastic plate on the bottom...)

 

Now Front wheel drive, plastic keeper plate with brake shoes, and with X.03 (new type) motor. From this chassis, bodies clipped onto the chassis, previously one fixing screw was used.

 

SSPP, Super Strong Pulling Power, chassis with traction tyres on the centre driving wheels, and a sprung rear axle.

 

Similar but without the sprung rear axle.

 

Traction tyres deleted, all wheels flanged, some fitted with DCC decoder mounting brackets.
 

 

The 2721 is a Hornby Railways model, introduced C1980,  and has had some improvements made over the years...

 

The “British Railways” Loco is an earlier version, repainted, etc., with moulded handrails on the bunker and at the front of the tanks...also the solid top safety valve cover, the same as made for the 8750.

 

The other one is a first issue from the Railroad Stable, with separate handrails, a better safety valve cover, but no shading to the GWR lettering, and other simplified or missing livery Elements.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by Sarahagain
Added chassis details in response to other posts...

[BWsTrains]

On 15/08/2020 at 09:19, Jon Harbour said:

The other thing I'd really love of course is a decent 14xx / 48xx.... Let me just try to put the lid back on that can of worms!

Hi Jon,

 

good one. Now look what you've gone and done.

 

cat is out of bag with worms all over floor. A whole page of wishes, opinions on various topics and diverse views in less than 2 days. No hope I'm afraid, but we could "run a book" on how long until we see "Godwins Law" in action now your modest enquiry has slipped off topic!

 

To test this, I once posted a topic which was innocent enough in itself and let it run with the occasional prod. It got to 12 pages, spanned many aspects of rail in the UK and lasted over a year !

 

Colin

 

 

Edited August 16, 2020 by BWsTrains

[Steamport Southport]

Worms? Is that what the dangly bits are called nowadays?

 

I'll be in my bunker and thinking about 1729....

 

 

 

 

I wonder whether anyone will get the 1729 reference. 

[Jon Harbour]

59 minutes ago, BWsTrains said:

Hi Jon,

 

good one. Now look what you've gone and done.

 

cat is out of bag with worms all over floor. A whole page of wishes, opinions on various topics and diverse views in less than 2 days. No hope I'm afraid, but we could "run a book" on how long until we see "Godwins Law" in action now your modest enquiry has slipped off topic!

 

To test this, I once posted a topic which was innocent enough in itself and let it run with the occasional prod. It got to 12 pages, spanned many aspects of rail in the UK and lasted over a year !

 

Colin

 

 

 

Guilty as charged M'lud.... didn't mean for things to go in that direction, but I suppose it was inevitable.... 

[frobisher]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Apart from a reworked part plastic version of the Jinty chassis & XO3 motor and it's made by a company called Rovex.

 

Except that's the 1978 Jinty, not the Triang one...

[melmerby]

7 hours ago, frobisher said:

 

Except that's the 1978 Jinty, not the Triang one...

I said re-worked. I didn't say it was the actual Triang one.

It still has Triang heritage as the same motor was used and the same coupling rods and the same axles...........

Edited August 17, 2020 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

2 hours ago, melmerby said:

I said re-worked. I didn't say it was the actual Triang one.

It still has Triang heritage as the same motor was used and the same coupling rods and the same axles...........

 

But they would just be standard parts.

 

It's a bit like saying car X is the same as car Y because they use the same tyres and cigarette lighter.

 

 

 

Jason

[melmerby]

2 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

But they would just be standard parts.

 

It's a bit like saying car X is the same as car Y because they use the same tyres and cigarette lighter.

 

 

 

Jason

Who said it was the same? Stop trying to twist it around.

IMHO you were wrong to claim there was "Nothing of Triang In it"

It quite clearly has Triang heritage, the motor is an unchanged Triang, the chassis is derived from the Jinty but with a "Hornby" designed body.  The company is a direct lineal descendent of Triang, it was called Rovex at the time the 2721 was made, the same as when the brand was Triang, but in different ownership and using a different Brand

 

You claim is like a Ford model Y has nothing of a Ford mdel X in it when it shares engines, gearboxes etc.

 

EDIT Re-written for clarity.

Edited August 17, 2020 by melmerby

[Ruffnut Thorston]

4 hours ago, melmerby said:

I said re-worked. I didn't say it was the actual Triang one.

It still has Triang heritage as the same motor was used and the same coupling rods and the same axles...........

 

It gets more complicated...
 

The original gear wheel on the driven axle was a brass 40 tooth (?) gear wheel.

 

Later in Tri-ang Hornby days, this was replaced by a black plastic gear wheel...

 

The X.04 motor design was modified to use a shorter armature shaft, needing the brass worm to be fitted on “backwards” as the new shaft wasn’t long enough for the existing tapered hole in the Two start brass worm to grip the shaft properly. For the very last X.04 production, the oil retaining pads were also deleted.

 

The “New type” (The part number was reused!) X.03 motors are the same as the very last X.04 motors, but use a black plastic, nylon, single start worm, needing a new 20 tooth(?) gear wheel, also made from plastic, and usually silver grey in colour...though I have found at least one in black! (Potentially causing confusion!)

 

The X.03 New type motors were replaced in the SSPP chassis with the current type of small, “disposable” motor in a plastic housing....

 

The coupling rods were changed from the introduction of the SSPP Chassis.

 

Two part rods were then used to allow the sprung axle of the chassis to move up and  down relative to the other two axles.

 

This design of coupling rods are still current...

 

The axles, and wheels, were changed. The newer axles have a smaller diameter in the actual wheel hub, though the main axle diameter remains the same as the original Tri-ang Railways parts. (Handy if you wish to put finer wheels on an older model....)
 

Currently, most wheels now have plastic centres, needing contact wipers on both sides of the loco.

 

Possibly the actual axle spacing is the same as the original C1953 R.52 “Jinty”?

 

Yes, the actual company history does stretch back to Rovex Plastics, then of Richmond, Surrey.

 

I won’t go into the evolution of the company here...

 

 

 

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Sarahagain
More added

[melmerby]

I have a R(0)59 2744, bought new when they came out.

It has the one piece coupling rods from the Jinty

It has provision for the "Magnadesion" magnet, The motor is claimed to be an XO3, without oil pads.

The centre wheels are smaller diameter. All wheels are metal with see through spokes and use an insulating bush on one side of the loco.

The couplings are part of the chassis plastic keeper plate.

There is a metal weight in the smokebox.

[The Johnster]

Mine is 2761, and has what is AFAIK the chassis used on the current production Railroad model.  This has a can motor driving a nylon axle on the front axle, wheels all the same size.  The rear axle has a crude form of springing which is effective but took a good deal of faffing to get it to that stage.  Hornby gave this model a 1945-7 G W R initials livery which is incorrect; the loco was painted austerity black between 1942 and 1945 at Caerphilly Works, and was withdrawn from Tondu in 1950 in this livery, which has the 'grotesque' script unshaded initials.  

 

The chassis is clearly based on and has a clear lineage from R52.  It is the generic Hornby 0-6-0 chassis in it's most recent form, but retains the basic faults of R52 in the form of the axle spacing, which is incorrect for any loco Triang, Triang Hornby, or Hornby have ever used it under.  Coupling rods are fluted, fine by me as 2761 had them in the condition I've modelled her, and correct separate forward and rear sections.  The couplings are attached to the plastic keeper plate.

 

It is common practice to upgrade the chassis with a Bachmann 57xx type, but this was not an option for me because of the fluted coupling rods.  It gives correct axle spacing for a 2721, but because the model is designed to fit an incorrect R52 derived chassis, the splashers do not line up, and using the Bachmann Jinty/1F type is even further 'out'.  I've worked 2761 up with correct livery, new chimney and safety valve cover from a scrapped Westward 64xx, and other details; she'll never be a scale model of anything but I'm happy with her as a representative 'layout' model.  The black livery hides the boiler skirts to some extent.  But she'd be given an opportunity of an exciting new career in the landfill industry if a decent model to modern standards was available.  In a heartbeat!

 

2721s are complex beasts once Belpaire boilers began to be fitted to them and they became pannier tanks, with some receiving 57xx type full cabs and some, not necessarily the same locos, receiving 57xx type fishbelly coupling rods.  There were I'm told examples of saddle tanks being refitted if the next boiler in the queue had a round topped firebox, so it is feasible that there were saddle tank 2721s in the 20s and 30s with fishbelly rods and 57xx cabs, but I've never seen a photo of such.  Mind, I've never looked for one!

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Sarahagain said:

The “New type” (The part number was reused!) X.03 motors are the same as the very last X.04 motors, but use a black plastic, nylon, single start worm, needing a new 20 tooth(?) gear wheel, also made from plastic, and usually silver grey in colour...though I have found at least one in black! (Potentially causing confusion!)

 

I think the plastic gear with the single start plastic worm is probably 40T (I'll confirm later) which will give a gear ratio of 40:1 making the top speed of the loco much more realistic than the two start brass gears which are effectively 20:1.

I used to replace the Triang two start brass worms with aftermarket single  start ones, although the worm pitch is incorrect there was enough tolerance for it to work well.

 

EDIT

Just checked, the plastic gear is 30 tooth making it 30:1, still better than 20:1!

Edited August 17, 2020 by melmerby

[Steamport Southport]

3 hours ago, melmerby said:

Who said it was the same? Stop trying to twist it around.

IMHO you were wrong to claim there was "Nothing of Triang In it"

It quite clearly has Triang heritage, the motor is an unchanged Triang, the chassis is derived from the Jinty but with a "Hornby" designed body.  The company is a direct lineal descendent of Triang, it was called Rovex at the time the 2721 was made, the same as when the brand was Triang, but in different ownership and using a different Brand

 

You claim is like a Ford model Y has nothing of a Ford mdel X in it when it shares engines, gearboxes etc.

 

EDIT Re-written for clarity.

 

But you are the one who is trying to twist it by mentioning motors and coupling rods. They use the same screws as well...

 

Triang ceased to exist in 1971. Hence nothing in the Hornby 2721 is Triang and no amount of pedantry is going to change that.

 

 

 

Jason