GCR Coaches

[Skaran]

I am wondering if anyone can help me. I am trying to find out which GCR coach types would have been running over the GWR/GCR joint railway just prior to WW1.

 

Also if anyone can point me in the direction of something which will explain how the GCR classified their coaches and the years they were in service it would be very helpful in working out what kits etc. to aquire.

[Earlswood Nob]

Hello Skaran

 

I think GCR coaches are a bit thin on the ground. There are probably a few expensive etched kits, but I don't know of any budget examples.

 

The old Triang/Hornby Clerestorys can be easily converted to represent GCR clerestorys built c1900-1910. 

 

A Chocolate and French grey repaint gives a reasonable representation. If the grabrails are replaced, they look even better.

 

Earlswood nob

[Skaran]

Hi Earlswood,

Not really what I was after, which was basically an explanation of the codes used for example Mousa has a GCR coach kit for a D.1Y2 ZB  but I have not found anywhere in my resources what this means. Also an approximate list of when various coaches may have appeared on the GWR/GCR Joint Railway

[Dava]

Great Central Railway Society is the group with the knowledge, there is a group restoring GC coaches at Ruddington

 

http://www.gcrsociety.co.uk/

[Poggy1165]

This will be of no immediate help, but I was talking to a gentleman on Saturday who is actively working on a book on GC coaches, which he hopes will be available within three years from a very reputable publisher.

 

The short answer to your question, is there is no simple answer to your question. Over a section of railway as important as the GW and GC mainline, almost anything could appear, if only on excursions, about the only thing I would exclude in the time frame are the four wheelers - sadly about the most readily available 4mm kit at the moment. (Bill Bedford).

 

I think regular trains would be dominated by the latest Robinson bogie stock, given that this was the part of the GC that got the best stuff, even on locals. Your best bet is probably to study photos from the era.

 

There have never been that many kits. D&S used to provide a whole range of 4mm Robinson stock, but these will be like hen's teeth now. Perseverance used to do some clerestories (which had some faults) I am not sure whether these can be obtained either nowadays. The GCRS has the rights to some Pollitt stock, but I'm not sure where they are up to with making them available. There is some 'scratch aid' stuff available from Worsley Works. That's about it. You will probably have to scratch build. There are some useful drawings (albeit basic) at the back of George Dow's Great Central, volume 3.

 

Good luck with the project.

[Steamport Southport]

I don't have any expert knowledge on GCR coaches but a ZB (usually BZ) is a six wheeled NPCCS Brake under normal carriage designations. The D.1Y2 part is the Diagram number.

 

XBT is a Brake Third.

XT is a Third.

XC is a Composite

XCLAV is a Composite Lavatory.

 

I believe the X means Corridor and these were probably operated as a set.

 

 

Jason

[Skaran]

Looks like some scratch building then as it looks like I will need a lot of Robinson types.

[Western Star]

This contribution is meant to be helpful - just how helpful depends upon what time you have available to pursue the lead.

 

In the late 1960s I visited the photographic studio of Sweetland of High Wycombe and purchased a print of the first GCR train to leave High Wycombe for Marylebone.  Subsequently, I was given a "Frith" print of the same train, on the same day, at the same place...  from the other side.  I suspect that as the first photo had been taken by the founder of Sweetland's business then there is a fair chance that the second photo was taken by the same photographer.

 

I have mislaid both prints.  However, the train engine is a 9K and the train is "modern" stock painted in the grey and brown livery.

 

In the recent past I have tried to locate the negatives of Sweetland and I was advised by the High Wycombe library curator of local studies that the collection had been split and at least one part had passed to Hamnett Rafferty (estate agents in the town).  So far I have not found any trace of either my Sweetland photo or the Frith print on t'net.

 

regards, Graham Beare

[Edwardian]

Not a subject I know much about.  I would have thought that, for local trains, the photographs in the Oakwood volume on the line would suffice.

 

These seem to have been 3 coach trains.  A matching set, of, what looks like, brake third, compo, brake third, features with examples of both liveries, while there is a lovely shot of a 2 clerestory and 1 low roof coach train. I think these photographs, even in the small size reproduced for the book, are clear enough for anyone with any knowledge of GC coaches to identify the diagrams.

[Andy Hayter]

No one has yet mentioned the Parker express stock built for the London extension.

 

Drawings can be found in Railway Modeller 1981 January and June and 1982 August. 

[salmonpastures]

Hi Earlswood,

Not really what I was after, which was basically an explanation of the codes used for example Mousa has a GCR coach kit for a D.1Y2 ZB  but I have not found anywhere in my resources what this means. Also an approximate list of when various coaches may have appeared on the GWR/GCR Joint Railway

Hello Skaran,

Couldn't agree more with the suggestion to look at the GCR Society pages for detailed questions such as coaching stock,,,, they are a very helpful and friendly bunch.

There are quite a few GC/LNER modellers on here as well,, myself included.

Loco's situation is slowly getting better with the assistance of Bachmann & John at  http://www.greatcentralmodels.co.uk/ which are designed for P4 but apparently can be used for other 4mm systems with a bit of effort.

 

 

SAD 

[Skaran]

I have a number of GCR loco and wagon kits in my metal mountain plus a Bachmann 04 which I intend to backdate. The Bachmann D11 is a bit too late for me, I can just about use a D10. But coaching stock is the most difficult. I have a fair number of the old Hornby/Triang short clerestories so will probably do some GCRish stock from that source. As for the locos from Great Central models though I had expressed interest in some of these they now appear to be out of production an the site states they will not be redone.

The information and directions you have given is very useful to me though and it is much appreciated.

[jwealleans]

At least part of the Perseverance range is available again, though I don't believe the carriages are as yet part of that. There were dimensional problems with them which Steve Banks covered in a Model Rail article, now also available on his website.

 

The GCRS Parker stock is awaiting castings, which they have confirmed to me in the past will be sold separately so as to be used with the Worsley Works components.

 

A book on GC carriage stock is long overdue and I wish the gent the best in his endeavour.

[Barry O]

I have a number of GCR loco and wagon kits in my metal mountain plus a Bachmann 04 which I intend to backdate. The Bachmann D11 is a bit too late for me, I can just about use a D10. But coaching stock is the most difficult. I have a fair number of the old Hornby/Triang short clerestories so will probably do some GCRish stock from that source. As for the locos from Great Central models though I had expressed interest in some of these they now appear to be out of production an the site states they will not be redone.

The information and directions you have given is very useful to me though and it is much appreciated.

Mike Edge (Judith Edge kits) does etching for an N5, a D10 and some other GC locomotives (including a very nice 0-6-0T.

 

You could also ask the GC steward of the HMRS if he can help.

Baz

Edited September 22, 2016 by Barry O

[Edwardian]

I have a number of GCR loco and wagon kits in my metal mountain plus a Bachmann 04 which I intend to backdate. The Bachmann D11 is a bit too late for me, I can just about use a D10. But coaching stock is the most difficult. I have a fair number of the old Hornby/Triang short clerestories so will probably do some GCRish stock from that source. As for the locos from Great Central models though I had expressed interest in some of these they now appear to be out of production an the site states they will not be redone.

The information and directions you have given is very useful to me though and it is much appreciated.

 

While, again, apologising for my ignorance on the subject, I noted that the roof profiles of the clerestories pictured in the Oakwood volume seemed more rounded than the GW's and closer to the MR clerestories.  That might not be the case for GC clerestories generally, for all I know.

 

There is a good shot of a GW Birdcage with a 4-coach set of Triangesque GW clerestories in the Oakwood volume.

 

Peco's technical department might be able to supply the roof sprue for the Ratio MR clerestories.

[billbedford]

The GCR had a policy of allocating its newest coaches to services out 
of Marylebone. The suburban services utilised the following coach types:
 
1895-c1903 -- six wheelers
c1903-c1913 -- 50' bogie stock
c1913-c1938 -- matchboard stock
c1938 onward -- Gresley stock.
 
 Mainline services followed a similar pattern.

 

GCR diagram numbers were of the form Number Letter Number, where the first number indicated the type of vehicle:
 
1 - NPCS
2 - Four and Six wheeled passenger coaches
3 - Ordinary bogie coaches
4 - Ordinary bogie coaches with Lavatories
5 - Gangwayed bogie coaches
6 - Railmotors etc.
 
The letter indicated the type of accommodation:
 
A - Van Third
B - Third
C - Open Third
D - Restaurant Third
E - Open Van Third
F - Saloon Third
G - Open Third, also Kitchen Car*
H - Van Composite
J - Slip Composite
K - Baggage Composite
L - Composite
M - Restaurant Composite
N - Saloon Composite
P - Van First
Q - Ordinary First
R - Restaurant First
S - Saloon First
T - Open Carriage Truck
U - Covered Carriage Truck
W - Special Cattle Box
X - Horse Box
Y - Brake Van
Z - Miscellaneous Van
 
* The Barnum saloons were 5G1, composite restaurants that were rebuilt 
as kitchen cars by the LNER became 5G2 etc.
 
The final digits of diagram number was a serial of the initial number 
and letter, unfortunately these don't align with the various body 
styles, for instance, the sequence of lavatory composites is:
 
4L1 - 38' MS&L built 1880
4L2 to 4L6 - clerestories built 1903/4
4L7 & 4L8 - London suburban built 1906 & 1907
4L9 & 4L10 - 60' matchboard built 1911/2 & 1920

[billbedford]

Etches for GCR coaches can be found here: Full kits, 4 and 6 wheelers, Bogie stock etches only, NPCS full kits

[Skaran]

Based on my proposed 1913 setting it looks like 50' bogie and early matchboard stock for the bulk of my coaching needs with perhaps an occasional GCR clerestory. Part of the advantage of this route is how short, relatively speaking GCR passenger trains were.

Thanks for the links Bill. Looks like I'll be putting an order in for a couple in the next week or so to start myself up. I still have to deicde on the make up of the rain though. Any ideas for a reasonable set?

[richard i]

Great central remembered by d.l.franks has loads of GCR photos all with the carrage formation explained . Great reference material.

Richard

[richard i]

At least part of the Perseverance range is available again, though I don't believe the carriages are as yet part of that. There were dimensional problems with them which Steve Banks covered in a Model Rail article, now also available on his website.The GCRS Parker stock is awaiting castings, which they have confirmed to me in the past will be sold separately so as to be used with the Worsley Works components.A book on GC carriage stock is long overdue and I wish the gent the best in his endeavour.

Keep us posted, I have six to build. Just need the bogies.

Richard

[Jim Martin]

The issues of Locomotives Illustrated covering the Atlantics and the Robinson 4-4-0s have a few photos from your period, although even the GCR-period pictures tend to be from a bit later (typically 1920-ish) and from further north.

 

Another good source of information on rolling stock is accident reports. The Railway Archive (http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventlisting.php) lists two accidents on the southern end of the GCR between 1910 and 1914 - a collision at Marylebone and another at Canfield Place (just outside Marylebone). The accident reports list three different passenger train formations.

 

Jim

[Earlswood Nob]

Good morning all

 

The classic transport film Metroland has a GCR Atlantic (pre-WWI) working along the joint lines with a train of GCR stock. 

 

 

Earlswood nob

[billbedford]

Dukinfield built two 5 car matchboard suburban set in 1911. These were arranged as brake third, composite, first, third, brake third, (3A7, 3L4, 3Q2, 3B5, 3A7). The brakes had six compartments. A year later six more sets were built arranged brake third, composite, third, third, brake third, (3A9, 3L5, 3B5, 3B5, 3A9). These brakes had seven compartments and the composites 4 first and 5 thirds. Altogether 31 D.3B5 thirds were built so it is likely that the sets were made up to six or seven cars with extra thirds.

[Skaran]

Looks like Mousa can provide etchings for the entire 5 coach matchboard set which is great. So if I order the entire train I presume I will still need to source roofs, underframes and bogies

[billbedford]

The underframes are included in the the etchings. Roofs and bogies are likely to be available in the future.