Scratch-built card and styrene structures (based on real buildings around London Bridge)

[grahame]

Just a very little progress today:

 

 

hardly worth taking and posting a pic, but thinking forward I'm looking for some info, details and, in particular, pics of the building next to it that is outlined in purple in the pic in post #551 and which only shows a little of the roofs. Is anyone able to help?

 

G

 

 

[grahame]

I'm also now starting to run up against a lack of information and detail for the building currently slowly being made.

 

This is mainly for the street level - was the ground floor a series of shops? Or something else? Fortunately much of it will be hidden at the back of the layout by buildings on the other side of the street, and although I can make up what I think that part of the building looked like, it would be nice to know what really should be there.  So, again, does anyone have any knowledge or reference, particularly photographs, that will help? I don't even know the name of the building, or even if it has one, so if anyone knows that . . . . . .  Thanks in anticipation.

 

In the meantime here's another very similar photo of the lack of major progress. None of the window panel walls are glued in position and are just placed for the snap - they need further detailing, painting and glazing:

 

 

G.

 

 

 

 

[Marly51]

Grahame,

Are there by any chance old records held by the local council’s planning department, which could indicate which businesses were at ground level? Then you could possibly source details of typical shop fronts, company logos, etc of the period you are modelling?

At one time I had a 1945 Post Office of Edinburgh, which detailed every resident, domestic and and commercial, in every street in the city - a great resource, but unfortunately my dad gave it away ☹️

Your facade detail is looking good so far. Not many folk would tackle scratchbuilding something like this - a lot of repetitive work!

Marlyn

[grahame]

Are there by any chance old records held by the local council’s planning department, which could indicate which businesses were at ground level? Then you could possibly source details of typical shop fronts, company logos, etc of the period you are modelling?

At one time I had a 1945 Post Office of Edinburgh, which detailed every resident, domestic and and commercial, in every street in the city - a great resource, but unfortunately my dad gave it away ☹️

Your facade detail is looking good so far. Not many folk would tackle scratchbuilding something like this - a lot of repetitive work!

 

I think the problem is that it was a short lived building - presumably built 1950/60s but gone and replaced by a Hilton Hotel by the mid 1990s. I've been able to source a couple of interesting documents about the area:

 

http://www.exploringsouthwark.co.uk/tooley-street/4594181061

www.southwark.gov.uk/download/downloads/id/4122/tooley_street_character_area

 

but neither mention or feature it and skip over that short section of Tooley Street (north side) between Hays Galleria and Aston Webb House. The second main document covers all the buildings, but being written at the turn of the millennium, the block had been demolished and replaced by the Hilton Hotel (which is featured in a couple of the pics). Earlier maps tend not to include the 60s buildings as the old Victorian warehousing was still in place.

 

I think I'm going to have to make up the street level frontage and the buildings next to it (of which the roofs just show over the top of the SER office 'flat iron' building). They'll be at the back of the layout and obscured by the building on the other side of the street so perhaps they'll not be noticeable and I'll get away with it.

 

G.

[westerhamstation]

Hi Grahame, hope this might be of a bit of use.

http://maps.nls.uk//view/103031115

   All the best Adrian

[grahame]

Hi Grahame, hope this might be of a bit of use.

http://maps.nls.uk//view/103031115

   All the best Adrian

 

Thanks - that's a great and useful map.

 

The map is dated as drawn in 1953 and doesn't show the office block building so it was presumably built in the late 1950s/early 60s (location in red outline). The area appears to be open ground at the time without any large structures. 

 

 

The blue outline is Hays Galleria (model made), the green outline is Aston Webb House and the purple is the block I also need to make. The whole area west of Battle Bridge Lane and north of Tooley Street and almost up to Tower Bridge had been cleared by 1987 (except Southwark Court and Aston Webb House) so the office block was very short lived, but unfortunately just the period I'm looking for:

 

 

You can just see a part of Hays Galleria in the lower left corner.

 

G.

[Marly51]

Oh for the days when building plans and elevations were beautifully rendered in ink on linen - works of art in themselves and a dream for modelmakers. Old photographs for the majority of rural buildings in a specific area are also thin on the ground. In a way railway modellers like yourself are piecing together a jigsaw puzzle to give us an insight into a city landscape we often took forgranted.

[Jim Martin]

There are several movies on Youtube which show bits of the area. A search for "Pathe South Bank" will get you some. Unfortunately, although there are a number of aerial shots of HMS Belfast, almost every one ends just as the camera is pulling out enough to take in Tooley Street! I visited HMS Belfast with my mother and sister in what must have been the mid-to-late 70s: frankly, I have no recollection of the area being quite as much of a dump as it appears to have been at that time.

 

Jim

[phil_sutters]

Hi Grahame,

 

As I was in the area today, I had a look in the Southwark Local History Library at their photos of Tooley Street, but they had none of that building.

I had a look in the Post Office Directory for 1965, which seems to be the latest they had - perhaps Southwark didn't want to subscribe, although the LCC had previously done so. Any way - Battlebridge House had about 15 - 20 companies listed in the building, plus Customs & Excise, if I remember correctly, but no retail outlets. There were a handful, including a florist, in the buildings to the west nos. 80,81 & 82 I think.

 

I hope that may help - perhaps a series of windows with a central officey sort of door or double doors.

 

Edit - having had another look at your most detailed photo - I think that the above ties in with the photo.

 

Phil

Edited February 2, 2018 by phil_sutters

[grahame]

Thanks for taking a look. It certainly seems like a ghost building without any photo record.

 

Battlebridge House, I didn't realize that was it's name. Apparently it was 87 - 113 Tooley Street, SE1 2RA. And there is still one company registered there Imber Production Limited (that is now dissolved). But no pics on searching for Battlebridge House.

 

G

[grahame]

I've now added the ground floor basic structure to which I will model and add appropriate windows/doors, etc. My plan is for large double entry doors (for the upper floor offices) at the right hand end with reception and a smaller entry at the left end. The main central ground floor section will be display windows with perhaps one or two as small retail outlets (such as a building society) - much in the same way as a very similar building I once worked in at Croydon had.

All the parts have been given a coat of grey primer ready for painting and glazing, although nothing is yet glued together.



However, any further work will need to go on hold as I'm planning to get the window frames printed (in black on acetate) by someone who offered to do it for me. The windows seem quite odd with a black outer surround and main vertical dividing bar, but then with white fames behind and inside them.

In the meantime I think I'll concentrate on the short row to the left (West) of Battlebridge House. I've almost no information or reference on them so will need to spend some time hunting for pics and, if nothing is forthcoming, making an educated guess of what they looked like to design something appropriate.

G

[phil_sutters]

I am sorry I didn't note down the businesses  (in 1965) in the buildings to the left, but there was definitely a florist. You can put a row of cut flowers in buckets outside - the London Bridge area then wasn't so upmarket. 

 

The businesses in Battlebridge House seemed to be mainly to do with the docks trade, so your display windows could show commodities or shipping-related images - a tiny model of a cargo ship?! Tea, coffee, wine, dried fruit and provisions seem to have been major imports into the wharves in this area. (Source London's Lost Riverscape - a photographic panorama) Although most if not all of the traffic had moved elsewhere by the 60s, I expect that  company offices were maintained there near to The City.

Edited February 3, 2018 by phil_sutters

[grahame]

I am sorry I didn't note down the businesses  (in 1965) in the buildings to the left, but there was definitely a florist. You can put a row of cut flowers in buckets outside - the London Bridge area then wasn't so upmarket. 

 

 

No problem. 

 

I'm temporarily putting to one side Battlebridge House to concentrate on the small row to the west of it; 81 to 85 Tooley Street. Again, an initial hunt shows there is almost no photographic record of them, much like Battlebridge House which seems to have been a forgotten ghost building. The map shows that the property on the left end (on the corner with Battlebridge Lane) was a pub (at least in 1953) and with one of the shops being a florist I've got a start.

 

But I think I'm going to have to design them on a best guess basis and the small amount of roofing seen peeping over the SER offices 'flat iron' building in the 1978 pic cropped (presumably, and hopefully, the scene remained like that until the mid 1980s when a lot of the building were started to be demolished for the 'More London' development) and the view from behind:

 

 

 

Unfortunately, by zooming in on these type of aerial views makes them very fuzzy and difficult to discern detail - but it's the best I have at the moment.

 

G

[phil_sutters]

This is from an OS map from 1964 on the Southwark Mapping Service. I am sure you must have had it before, but for those who don't know the area...........  Battlebridge House is 87 to 95 Tooley Street.

Edited February 3, 2018 by phil_sutters

[grahame]

This is from an OS map from 1964 on the Southwark Mapping Service. I am sure you must have had it before, but for those who don't know the area...........  Battlebridge House is 87 to 95 Tooley Street.

OS 1964 map Tooley Bermondsey St junction.jpg

 

I'm not so sure about the accuracy of that map. In this pic the Battlebridge House frontage extends along Tooley Street to the corner with Morgan's Lane and this site: http://www.ukaddressbook.uk/a/battlebridge-house-87-113-tooley-street-london-se1-2ra indicates the number of Battlebridge House was 87 to 113 (rather than 95). With Aston Webb House being the next building at 115-121 it would seem to follow sequentially. The map shows a big gap where 97 to 113 should be.

 

 

I suppose it could have been extended after 1964 - the extra portion does look a little different and there is the centre breached wall on the roof, but I'm not so sure the extra bit is a later build extension - maybe a second planned phase. Nonetheless, for the period I'm covering it needs to be the longer version as in the pic (dated 1978) which is what I have built.

 

G.

[grahame]

The Duke of Clarance, 69 Tooley Street, is listed in a little booklet I compiled and published in 1978 about real ale pubs in SE London as selling Bass on handpump - so I must have been in it and had a beer. It is also mentioned in a 1986 issue of London Drinker as still selling real ale so was around then - and was probably demolished as part of the 1987 'More London' development clearance.

If only I had a digital camera then. The big question is does anyone have any pics of it?

G.

[grahame]

A little progress. The pic below is of 73-87 Tooley Street in 1980 (from the Collage archive). Presumably the building that can just be seen at the far left end is the Duke of Clarence pub and Battlebridge House is just out of shot at the right end. It's an evocative pic (shame the car cannot be discerned - looks like a flash coupe) with the wall mounted crane and range of building styles - warehousing, retail, office and a pub.

 

'Clarkair International' seems to be a dissolved Hong Kong company ( http://www.hongkongcompanylist.com/clarkair-international-far-east-limited-bfpyq/#.WngiL0x2tPY). . . . but the building with it's angular peaked ground floor display window is certainly of an age in trying to look modern - was that the retail outlet that became a florist? I think the archway in the white stone fronted building next door leads to English Ground (see 1953 map).

 

 

Now, if I can get similar snaps with the Duke of Clarence and Battlebridge House as the main subjects from that era, then I'm off and running.

 

G

 

 

[grahame]

Due to the compression needed to get things in to a reasonable space and only effectively having a limited gap between the Hays Galleria and Battlebridge House buildings (where this row will fit) I'm going to leave out one of the buildings and a column of windows on the warehouse. The axed one will be the one next to the pub - pubs are essential for variety and the warehouse frontage, with it's original loading/unloading crane, is typical of the area (in that time), plus the other two are just too good not to model. So I've sketched up a sort of character drawing of how it the row will look:

 

 

The sketch is roughly to full scale size but next is to work out the exact dimensions and draw up an accurate plan to cut from.

 

G. 

[grahame]

Just out of interest, is this research, planning and design process for the model buildings of interest and worthwhile posting?

 

G.

[phil_sutters]

A little progress. The pic below is of 73-87 Tooley Street in 1980 (from the Collage archive). Presumably the building that can just be seen at the far left end is the Duke of Clarence pub and Battlebridge House is just out of shot at the right end. It's an evocative pic (shame the car cannot be discerned - looks like a flash coupe) with the wall mounted crane and range of building styles - warehousing, retail, office and a pub.

 

'Clarkair International' seems to be a dissolved Hong Kong company ( http://www.hongkongcompanylist.com/clarkair-international-far-east-limited-bfpyq/#.WngiL0x2tPY). . . . but the building with it's angular peaked ground floor display window is certainly of an age in trying to look modern - was that the retail outlet that became a florist? I think the archway in the white stone fronted building next door leads to English Ground (see 1953 map).

 

Imagecrop.jpg

 

Now, if I can get similar snaps with the Duke of Clarence and Battlebridge House as the main subjects from that era, then I'm off and running.

 

G

The florist was in the 1965 PO Directory - so things look as if they have moved on since then.

[Branwell]

Just out of interest, is this research, planning and design process for the model buildings of interest and worthwhile posting?

 

G.

 

Yes it is - please don't stop.

[acg5324]

Just out of interest, is this research, planning and design process for the model buildings of interest and worthwhile posting?

 

G.

The research is often the most interesting part of our hobby....keep going please Grahame

[Campaman]

That car could be the humble Morris Marina coupe, or possibly the Opal Cadet coupe.

Edited February 5, 2018 by Campaman

[Stubby47]

Sunbeam Rapier possibly ?

[grahame]

I've measured up and found that I've a little more room for the length of the row, so, although I'll still leave out one building, I can include all the warehouse window columns and make the widths of the buildings a little more as in this pic:

 

 

The ground floors probably need to be just a little taller raising the overall height, but the row roof top is substantially lower than the blocks (Hays \galleria and Battlebridge House) either side.

 

G.

Edited February 5, 2018 by grahame