A few Warship Pictures - Date information welcome

[Andy Kirkham]

I'm not sure if I've posted any of these but I'm wondering if anyone (particularly Mark Alden!) has any records that might be able to identify the dates and/or workings.

 

APR 72 03. 814 Dragon at Temple Meads, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

Here is 814 in 1972  at Temple Meads showing 7B86, a working that doesn't appear in the working timetable I borrowed. 814 was withdrawn on New Year's Day 1972 but reinstated in (I think) March, This picture has a processing stamp of APR 72, so that's quite a short time window.

 

AUG 72 04. 812 The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959 at Ashton Meadows, August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

812 at Ashton Meadows in a slide dated AUG 72. It looks like it is hauling a train of miscellaneous junk, perhaps from the Civil Engineering workshops.

 

AUG 72 07. 825 Intrepid at Crediton, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

825 on a milk train at Crediton. Slide dated AUG 72. This must have been not long before final withdrawal.

 

NOV 71 14. 832 Onslaught with a train of woodpulp wagons at Marsh Ponds, November 1971 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

NOV 71 13. 832 Onslaught at Marsh Ponds, November 1971 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

832 on a Portishead-Marsh Ponds woodpulp working. Slide dated NOV 71.

 

NOV 72 01. 7100 approaching Parson Street with a train of woodpulp from Portishead, October or November 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

About a year later (NOV 72) 7100 on a similar working. The only time I ever saw 7100 - not a regular visitor to Bristol.

 

NOV 72 12. 820 Grenville passing Malago Vale carriage sidings. October 1972. by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

My last ever sight of a Warship in service. This photo was processed NOV 72, so by the time I got the slides back from Kodak the loco had been withdrawn (on the first of month).

[Kelly]

Lovely photos , thanks for sharing. I have a bit of a fondness for the Warships, as one was named Kelly (D827), named after a ship that served in WW2, itself named after an Admiral Kelly, the ship didn't fare so well sadly. Seems there are not a lot of photos of 827, though there are some in 'The book of the Warships'.

[Andy Kirkham]

Lovely photos , thanks for sharing. I have a bit of a fondness for the Warships, as one was named Kelly (D827), named after a ship that served in WW2, itself named after an Admiral Kelly, the ship didn't fare so well sadly. Seems there are not a lot of photos of 827, though there are some in 'The book of the Warships'.

I just looked up HMS Kelly and see that she was Lord Mountbatten's ship, sunk by Stukas off Crete in 1941. I had an idea I'd read that the D800's were named after Royal Navy ships that were in service at the time the locos were built, but I can't see any reference to a subsequent re-use of the name by the Navy, so perhaps my source was wrong, or I misremembered it.

 

With names like this I think it is a good job the D800 nameplates had the explanatory subscript "Warship Class". The later generation of Warships, the Class 50s didn't have it and I remember seeing 50 023 arriving at Temple Meads bearing a plate that read simply "Howe", and thinking that most members of the travelling public would be simply mystified by that.

[Rivercider]

I expect some of those workings from the Bristol area will not be in the WTT but would be shown in the local trip booklet. 

Local trip headcodes for the West of England Division started from B70 in each area by the mid to late 1970s.

 

The closest Trip Booklet I have is w.e.f. 6th October 1975.

The wood pulp workings from Portishead to St Annes Board Mills at Marsh Ponds were shown as trips.

 

Trip 3 included

8B72 10.00 Portishead - East Depot Upside (11.00) calling at Ashton Junction 10.25 - 10.35

 

8B72 12.25 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (13.15)

 

8B72 14.30 Portishead - Kingsland Road (15.15)

 

Trip 4 included

6B73 10.25 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (11.17)

 

6B73 11.55 Portishead - Marsh Ponds (12.45)

 

6B73 16.20 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (17.06)

 

6B73 17.55 Portishead - Marsh Ponds (18.45)

 

 

 

cheers

[Andy Kirkham]

I expect some of those workings from the Bristol area will not be in the WTT but would be shown in the local trip booklet. 

Local trip headcodes for the West of England Division started from B70 in each area by the mid to late 1970s.

 

The closest Trip Booklet I have is w.e.f. 6th October 1975.

The wood pulp workings from Portishead to St Annes Board Mills at Marsh Ponds were shown as trips.

 

Trip 3 included

8B72 10.00 Portishead - East Depot Upside (11.00) calling at Ashton Junction 10.25 - 10.35

 

8B72 12.25 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (13.15)

 

8B72 14.30 Portishead - Kingsland Road (15.15)

 

Trip 4 included

6B73 10.25 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (11.17)

 

6B73 11.55 Portishead - Marsh Ponds (12.45)

 

6B73 16.20 Marsh Ponds - Portishead (17.06)

 

6B73 17.55 Portishead - Marsh Ponds (18.45)

 

 

cheers

Thanks Kevin. I've never seen a trip booklet: from what you've written it looks like they were issued weekly. Were they properly printed like WTTs, or just duplicated?

[D826]

Andy

 

Just ticking 'like' doesn't do justice to those shots. Marvellous. Thanks. And I did tick 'like' too. I can hear them in my minds ear !

 

Spot on.

 

Regards

 

Matt Wood

[Rivercider]

Thanks Kevin. I've never seen a trip booklet: from what you've written it looks like they were issued weekly. Were they properly printed like WTTs, or just duplicated?

Hi Andy,

 

the local Trip Booklets that I have were issued by the Divisional Managers Office Bristol, and were not published weekly, but I assume published whenever there were significant alterations, perhaps concurrently with the WTT? perhaps Mike Stationmaster can advise?

All the other area trip booklets I have for 1975 were commencing with effect from Monday 5th May 1975, but the Bristol booklet is shown as re-issued w.e.f 6th October 1975, so possibly replacing an earlier edition from May 1975.

 

Those I have are printed single sided on paper about A5 size and stapled together. The Bristol booklet runs to cover plus 11 pages, whereas a smaller area like Worcester is cover plus 4 pages.

 

As you may expect trains did not always run as per the trip booklet but varied with traffic fluctuations, indeed the cover of the booklets notes

 

'Traincrews may be required, upon instruction to work other than as shown in this book when traffic fluctuations make it necessary'

 

cheers

[Tim H]

Interesting to see a Speedlink-era air-braked (and through vacuum piped) van in the Malago Vale photo.  Not the sort of wagon you associate with diesel hydraulic traction.

[Fat Controller]

Interesting to see a Speedlink-era air-braked (and through vacuum piped) van in the Malago Vale photo.  Not the sort of wagon you associate with diesel hydraulic traction.

The first of the production builds came out in 1969, I believe. Bristol was an early haunt of these, with the first Air-Brake-Network service running from there to Glasgow. From what I remember of these workings, they were a fairly uniform mix of vans and OAA opens, apparently conveying mainly paper traffic and tobacco/ cigarettes.

[Fat Controller]

Hi Andy,

 

the local Trip Booklets that I have were issued by the Divisional Managers Office Bristol, and were not published weekly, but I assume published whenever there were significant alterations, perhaps concurrently with the WTT? perhaps Mike Stationmaster can advise?

All the other area trip booklets I have for 1975 were commencing with effect from Monday 5th May 1975, but the Bristol booklet is shown as re-issued w.e.f 6th October 1975, so possibly replacing an earlier edition from May 1975.

 

Those I have are printed single sided on paper about A5 size and stapled together. The Bristol booklet runs to cover plus 11 pages, whereas a smaller area like Worcester is cover plus 4 pages.

 

As you may expect trains did not always run as per the trip booklet but varied with traffic fluctuations, indeed the cover of the booklets notes

 

'Traincrews may be required, upon instruction to work other than as shown in this book when traffic fluctuations make it necessary'

 

cheers

I used to have what sounds like the equivalent version for Swansea from a few years previously- about thirty pages, with a card cover. I wonder what proportion of those workings were resourced, and how many ever ran.

[br2975]

I used to have what sounds like the equivalent version for Swansea from a few years previously- about thirty pages, with a card cover. I wonder what proportion of those workings were resourced, and how many ever ran.

 

I think (but stand to be corrected) the WR Cardiff District Branches 'may' have done away with the Trip Booklets from 1968-1969, as from 1969-1970 a whole host of 'valleys' freight workings appeared in the Cardiff District Branches WTT that hadn't featured previously, and allowed each diagram to be followed through the WTT.

.

This falls in with the review of freight working in South Wales which was carried out at that time.

.

Brian R

[mark alden]

I'm not sure if I've posted any of these but I'm wondering if anyone (particularly Mark Alden!) has any records that might be able to identify the dates and/or workings.

 

APR 72 03. 814 Dragon at Temple Meads, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

Here is 814 in 1972  at Temple Meads showing 7B86, a working that doesn't appear in the working timetable I borrowed. 814 was withdrawn on New Year's Day 1972 but reinstated in (I think) March, This picture has a processing stamp of APR 72, so that's quite a short time window.

 

AUG 72 04. 812 The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959 at Ashton Meadows, August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

812 at Ashton Meadows in a slide dated AUG 72. It looks like it is hauling a train of miscellaneous junk, perhaps from the Civil Engineering workshops.

 

AUG 72 07. 825 Intrepid at Crediton, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

825 on a milk train at Crediton. Slide dated AUG 72. This must have been not long before final withdrawal.

 

NOV 71 14. 832 Onslaught with a train of woodpulp wagons at Marsh Ponds, November 1971 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

NOV 71 13. 832 Onslaught at Marsh Ponds, November 1971 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

832 on a Portishead-Marsh Ponds woodpulp working. Slide dated NOV 71.

 

NOV 72 01. 7100 approaching Parson Street with a train of woodpulp from Portishead, October or November 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

About a year later (NOV 72) 7100 on a similar working. The only time I ever saw 7100 - not a regular visitor to Bristol.

 

NOV 72 12. 820 Grenville passing Malago Vale carriage sidings. October 1972. by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

 

My last ever sight of a Warship in service. This photo was processed NOV 72, so by the time I got the slides back from Kodak the loco had been withdrawn (on the first of month).

 

814 - 7B86 was St Blazey to Par / Drinnick Mill / Burngullow clay trip and I have Monday 27th March as a possible for this working. The loco had worked Up to Bristol on the Saturday night / Sunday morning on a Plymouth to Avonmouth freight and was used on trips on the 27th.

 

812 - Worked 2B72 Plymouth - Newquay - Plymouth on 20th July and the following day worked to Bristol. It was then in the Bristol area on trip freights until the 26th so likely around these dates.

 

825 - Could be 3rd or 9th August on the Lapford milk trip. 4B10 was the 15.53 Bristol - Plymouth vans, a previous working.

 

832 - is Thursday 3rd November.

 

820 - is Monday 30th October.

 

Hope this helps...

[Enterprisingwestern]

814 - 7B86 was St Blazey to Par / Drinnick Mill / Burngullow clay trip and I have Monday 27th March as a possible for this working. The loco had worked Up to Bristol on the Saturday night / Sunday morning on a Plymouth to Avonmouth freight and was used on trips on the 27th.

 

812 - Worked 2B72 Plymouth - Newquay - Plymouth on 20th July and the following day worked to Bristol. It was then in the Bristol area on trip freights until the 26th so likely around these dates.

 

825 - Could be 3rd or 9th August on the Lapford milk trip. 4B10 was the 15.53 Bristol - Plymouth vans, a previous working.

 

832 - is Thursday 3rd November.

 

820 - is Monday 30th October.

 

Hope this helps...

 

Brilliant. So good that someone has access to all these sort of details.

 

Mike.

[Andy Kirkham]

814 - 7B86 was St Blazey to Par / Drinnick Mill / Burngullow clay trip and I have Monday 27th March as a possible for this working. The loco had worked Up to Bristol on the Saturday night / Sunday morning on a Plymouth to Avonmouth freight and was used on trips on the 27th.

 

812 - Worked 2B72 Plymouth - Newquay - Plymouth on 20th July and the following day worked to Bristol. It was then in the Bristol area on trip freights until the 26th so likely around these dates.

 

825 - Could be 3rd or 9th August on the Lapford milk trip. 4B10 was the 15.53 Bristol - Plymouth vans, a previous working.

 

832 - is Thursday 3rd November.

 

820 - is Monday 30th October.

 

Hope this helps...

Magic!

 

So 820 was only two days from withdrawal.

 

Thank you so much Mark.

[mark alden]

yes... after this working on 30.10.72 820 took fuel tank empties from Bath Road at 17.15 to Avonmouth and then worked the 19.20 freight to Drump Lane.

 

8B73 started at 06.10 and the loco was out and about for 8 hours.

 

On the 31.10.72 820 worked freight trips from Drump Lane ending up at Penzance at lunchtime. it then went light to St Erth, shunted the milk and took the 13.45 milk for Acton to Plymouth where it was failed with transmission faults. 821 worked forward.

 

820 was withdrawn 01.11.72 at laira.

[Andy Kirkham]

I wonder if I might impose one or two more?

 

SEP 70 06. D867 Zenith at Penzance with the 12:25 to Paddington, August 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

D867 with 1A59, the 12:25 Penzance-Paddington. Processed September 1970, so probably taken in August.

 

SEP 70 14. 821 Greyhound St Erth, August 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

On the face of it, not much to go on, but I know it was taken later in the same week as the one of D867, and I noted on the slide mount that the loco is 821 Greyhound. The headcode is obviously false, but we were returning to Penzance from a day in St Ives, so it is probably tea time.

 

SEP 72 06. 812 "The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959" leaving Penzance with the Cornishman (10:25 Penzance-Leeds), August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Back to Penzance two years later. 812 departs with the 1E21 the Cornishman in (probably) August 1972. Does the apparent white dust on the roof indicate a recent involvement with china clay?

 

SEP 72 09. 807 Caradoc shunts carriages outside Penzance, August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

A few frames later on the same film, so a day or more later. 807 is shunting empty stock (observe, the nearer cab is unoccupied).

 

FEB 72 09. 807 Caradoc at Temple Meads with the 08:00 Plymouth-Leeds, January 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

807 again in January 1972 piloting a Peak on 1E30, the 08:00 Plymouth-Leeds.

 

The remainder contain much less evidence, so the prospect of dating is probably slight, but I'll include them anyway.

MAY 70 20. D867 Zenith at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

D867 again, this time at Bath Road with the processing date MAY 70.

 

D864 Zambesi at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

All I can say about this shot of D864 is that it was taken in 1970 (presumably the summer), so I'm not too hopeful. The headcode looks like 7C42.

 

D6354 at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

However does the fact that D6354 was present help to pin it down? It must have been about this time that the Class 22s left Bristol for good. Other photos I have seen suggest that D6354 ended her days at Gloucester working in the Forest of Dean.

 

APR 72 09. 812 The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959 at Temple Meads, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Not much context here, I'm afraid, apart from the headcode 6A17, the processing date April 1972, and my recollection that (I think) this was a Saturday.

 

825 Intrepid passes South Liberty Junction, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Finally the reinstated 825 passes South Liberty Junction with a northbound train in the summer of 1972.

[mark alden]

I wonder if I might impose one or two more?

 

SEP 70 06. D867 Zenith at Penzance with the 12:25 to Paddington, August 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

D867 with 1A59, the 12:25 Penzance-Paddington. Processed September 1970, so probably taken in August.

 

SEP 70 14. 821 Greyhound St Erth, August 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

On the face of it, not much to go on, but I know it was taken later in the same week as the one of D867, and I noted on the slide mount that the loco is 821 Greyhound. The headcode is obviously false, but we were returning to Penzance from a day in St Ives, so it is probably tea time.

 

SEP 72 06. 812 "The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959" leaving Penzance with the Cornishman (10:25 Penzance-Leeds), August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Back to Penzance two years later. 812 departs with the 1E21 the Cornishman in (probably) August 1972. Does the apparent white dust on the roof indicate a recent involvement with china clay?

 

SEP 72 09. 807 Caradoc shunts carriages outside Penzance, August 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

A few frames later on the same film, so a day or more later. 807 is shunting empty stock (observe, the nearer cab is unoccupied).

 

FEB 72 09. 807 Caradoc at Temple Meads with the 08:00 Plymouth-Leeds, January 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

807 again in January 1972 piloting a Peak on 1E30, the 08:00 Plymouth-Leeds.

 

The remainder contain much less evidence, so the prospect of dating is probably slight, but I'll include them anyway.

MAY 70 20. D867 Zenith at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

D867 again, this time at Bath Road with the processing date MAY 70.

 

D864 Zambesi at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

All I can say about this shot of D864 is that it was taken in 1970 (presumably the summer), so I'm not too hopeful. The headcode looks like 7C42.

 

D6354 at Bath Road, 1970 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

However does the fact that D6354 was present help to pin it down? It must have been about this time that the Class 22s left Bristol for good. Other photos I have seen suggest that D6354 ended her days at Gloucester working in the Forest of Dean.

 

APR 72 09. 812 The Royal Naval Reserve 1859-1959 at Temple Meads, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Not much context here, I'm afraid, apart from the headcode 6A17, the processing date April 1972, and my recollection that (I think) this was a Saturday.

 

825 Intrepid passes South Liberty Junction, 1972 by Andy Kirkham, on Flickr

Finally the reinstated 825 passes South Liberty Junction with a northbound train in the summer of 1972.

Gonna take a punt on 812 on 1E21 as Wednesday 23rd August, it failed at Par and had D7577 attached to assist to Plymouth.

 

807 gonna suggest Friday 25th August and the loco has brought Down ECS from Laira to work a FO train to Paddington.

 

867 is before Friday 3rd September. 1A59 was the 12.18 SO 12.25 SX Penzance - Paddington. Probably in the week ending 29th August

 

821 worked 1C49 11.20 Paddington - Penzance (head code is correct) on Saturday 29th August, 1C49 was 855 on the 1st; 833 on the 8th, 853 on the 15th and on the 22nd unknown although on the 22nd 821 was UP an DOwn the SR all day so it can really only be Saturday 29th August 1970.

 

807 - gonna suggest its Monday 7th February and the Peak is D140

 

812 showing 6A17... 6A17 was the 15.05 Penzance- Paddington, the loco worked to Paddington then 4B05 05.015 Paddington - Bristol vans, returning on 6A27 11.20 Bristol - Old Oak Common empty vans. A likely possible date is Saturday 18th March if you say its an April processing date as Saturdays after that the loco was not in the Bristol area until late April which would probably give a May processing date allowing for post?

[Rivercider]

Reference 807 piloting the Peak at Bristol Temple Meads on 1E30 Plymouth - Leeds, I  believe this service was often used

for test runs of locos off repairs at Laira (in 1981 I photographed a 47+46 combination on this service)

 

cheers 

[Phil Bullock]

Re Class 22s at Bristol - IIRC they finally left in April 71

 

EDIT.....Caption here suggests May...

 

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p661346788/h5CFD2298#h5cfd2298

 

Cheers

 

Phil

[Pixie]

Superb selection of photographs, Andy.

 

Mark, your records never cease to amaze me. They must represent years, if not decades, of compiling. Have you got any plans of publishing them? It'd be fantastic to have access to such valuable information.

 

Steve

[Enterprisingwestern]

Superb selection of photographs, Andy.

 

Mark, your records never cease to amaze me. They must represent years, if not decades, of compiling. Have you got any plans of publishing them? It'd be fantastic to have access to such valuable information.

 

Steve

 

I would gladly make all my notes, such as they are in comparison, available for such a monumental exercise.

 

Mike.

[Reading General]

I just looked up HMS Kelly and see that she was Lord Mountbatten's ship, sunk by Stukas off Crete in 1941. I had an idea I'd read that the D800's were named after Royal Navy ships that were in service at the time the locos were built, but I can't see any reference to a subsequent re-use of the name by the Navy, so perhaps my source was wrong, or I misremembered it.

 

With names like this I think it is a good job the D800 nameplates had the explanatory subscript "Warship Class". The later generation of Warships, the Class 50s didn't have it and I remember seeing 50 023 arriving at Temple Meads bearing a plate that read simply "Howe", and thinking that most members of the travelling public would be simply mystified by that.

 

I can't recall from memory but did D800 have "Warship Class" on it's name plates?

[Andy Kirkham]

Gonna take a punt on 812 on 1E21 as Wednesday 23rd August, it failed at Par and had D7577 attached to assist to Plymouth.

 

807 gonna suggest Friday 25th August and the loco has brought Down ECS from Laira to work a FO train to Paddington.

 

867 is before Friday 3rd September. 1A59 was the 12.18 SO 12.25 SX Penzance - Paddington. Probably in the week ending 29th August

 

821 worked 1C49 11.20 Paddington - Penzance (head code is correct) on Saturday 29th August, 1C49 was 855 on the 1st; 833 on the 8th, 853 on the 15th and on the 22nd unknown although on the 22nd 821 was UP an DOwn the SR all day so it can really only be Saturday 29th August 1970.

 

807 - gonna suggest its Monday 7th February and the Peak is D140

 

812 showing 6A17... 6A17 was the 15.05 Penzance- Paddington, the loco worked to Paddington then 4B05 05.015 Paddington - Bristol vans, returning on 6A27 11.20 Bristol - Old Oak Common empty vans. A likely possible date is Saturday 18th March if you say its an April processing date as Saturdays after that the loco was not in the Bristol area until late April which would probably give a May processing date allowing for post?

 

Thank you once again sir! My gratitude is exceeded only by my amazement!

 

I had thought C in a headcode denoted South Wales, but on further delving, I see that this was only the case after May 1971.

[Enterprisingwestern]

I can't recall from memory but did D800 have "Warship Class" on it's name plates?

 

The only one not too.

 

Mike.

[Downendian]

Another "agree" for the seemingly untapped gold vein that Mark has supplied. Pressing a button isn't enough.

D807 with the peak- I'd agree with Mark's assessment here

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/45742-class-4546-west-of-bristol-prior-to-1967/?p=503413

I'd harvested that data from the sadly defunct "Dreadful" bashing site about a decade ago, to which I tuned in as a lurker nightly. It was like a hydraulic soap opera - the original data may have even been posted by Mark?

Those peak-warship combos must have been an amazing sight.

Neil