Hornby announce the ex SECR / SR / BR(s) Wainwright H Class 0-4-4 tank as part of their 2017 range

[The Bigbee Line]

Whilst I am one of those who many years ago cut and shut a Wrenn R1 into an H as per below (excuse the spurious malachite livery, I was a teenager at the time of the conversion and repaint) I am not sure why anyone would want to do it the other way round (as some say if that's where you want to go I wouldn't start from here) as Wrenn R1s are still easy to come by and with a little work (such as pipework, handrails, Romford wheels and etched coupling rods makes a reasonable model).

H 1247_4.jpg

R1 1337_5.jpg

My posting was a little tongue in cheek, I must admit.  Nice to see your model though.

 

On a serious note, the announcement of the H will spur on some modelling of push pull sets.

[Mad Carew Too]

I know there was a request to get back to the H model.

 

Has any body mentioned a possible kitbash into the R1 0-6-0T?

 

I have seen a conversion the other way, IIRC it involved some cut and shut work with a replacement chassis. 

 

Can't see a need.  With South Eastern Finecast and with spare Wrenn-style plastic bodies available.  We can make do with what the manufacturers have dished up! 

[Steamport Southport]

Funnily enough I was thinking about the R1 when this was originally announced.

 

There aren't really that many small SR shunter types and none of them were built in significant numbers. Discounting what is already available or announced, you've got the G6, E1, E2, P and R1.

 

It would be a good shout for a new model in a few years time I reckon. Quite a bit of the design work would have already been done for the H.
 

 

 

 

Jason

[Mad Carew Too]

I suspect we are getting seriously off topic, but, I think there is more to it than that.  It would be wrong to point to various pre-1948 releases and claim that they amounted to even the beginnings of adequate coverage of the Grouping or pre-Grouping scenes.

 

Everything flows from the single salient fact that Blue and Red Box only tool for the BR modeller.  For Grouping and pre-Grouping designs this allows manufacturers in most cases to livery the models back to the late 1930s with ease.  After that, it becomes a bit more hit and miss, and by the time you have arrived pre-WW1, there is very little.

 

This means that the available items represent patchy coverage to say the least.  One accurate LBSC tank, one accurate LSWR tank, one accurate SECR six-coupled goods, coaches announced relevant to only one of the foregoing, etc.  

 

In my non-pre-Grouping Ranter incarnation, I model the Great Western in 1935.  You would be amazed what an exotic choice even 1935 can be, compared with 1936, say, or 1938, let alone 1947 or the Nationalised scene. 

 

Until the incomparable Hornby Colletts came along, and by goodness they were a long time coming, there was not a single suitable passenger vehicle to modern RTR standards for a GW layout set in 1935 or earlier.  Even now, you cannot go south of 1928.

 

Hattons' "4800" has deliberately excluded tooling for the pre-War as built appearance, so even when some recent releases allow better representation of the GW in the Thirties, retrograde steps are still being quite consciously taken.

 

Hornby and Kernow decisions have denied Southern modellers pre 1936 and pre 1933 ex-LSW coaching sets respectively.  It is not merely pre-Groupers who are cut out of RTR LSWR coaches, but anyone who might want to try the first 10-13 years of the Southern.

 

Early Grouping is just as badly covered as pre-Grouping.  Once you go earlier than 1937/8, coverage shelves off very dramatically.

 

I am glad to see some topics springing up in the special interests section concerning back-dating RTR models to a pre-Grouping state.  I hope there will be one devoted to this release (and that it won't get locked again!).  Perhaps we can get some thoughtful and positive discussions of these locos in earlier periods. 

[GeoffBird]

Unfortunately, the locos are not yet available to order from the Hornby web-site.  I notice that the Hattons pre-oder does not include a Hornby "R" number, so presumably they arfe not that far down the line.

[Islesy]

R Numbers are not released to the public until the range is announced etc.

[Oldddudders]

 

There aren't really that many small SR shunter types and none of them were built in significant numbers. Discounting what is already available or announced, you've got the G6, E1, E2, P and R1.

 

 

 

E1? Not in significant numbers? I think the numbers ran from 85 - 164, which, if you discount the E Specials viz 157 Barcelona and 158 West Brighton, I make 78 copies, which is quite a lot, really. 

[LC&DR]

I am currently in model railway heaven. First an N, then a C and now a H, I am afraid to pinch myself in case I wake up and find it is all a bad dream.

 

I hark back to the 1960s when Alan Williams described in Model Railway Constructor how he butchered a Hornby Dublo R1 and three Tri-ang GW clerestories to create the Westerham Push & Pull set.  In those days we could only fantasize about detailed RTR locos and carriages for Southern enthusiasts. His other efforts included a 2Hap from a Tri-ang EMU, a 5Bel from Tri-ang short Pullmans. a 4Cep / 4Bep from Kitmaster Mark 1s and even a SR type carriage washing machine. All these have been recently, are now or very soon will be available to us ready made, except the CWM and the Bep buffet, but we still live in hope.

 

In those days I had already created a West Country from a Tri-ang R50 Princess chassis and  a Kitmaster 'Biggin Hill', shame the driving wheels were spoked and not Boxpoc.  I butchered a Tri-ang 3F tender loco to make a  'C' modifying the firebox, cab and tender top with cardboard stuck on with Uhu. Pretty sad efforts by modern standards but it that age I was pleased with the result. I did manage to persuade father to buy me a L1 for Christmas, and saved my pocket money for a R1, which had an incompatible coupling. The R1 is the only one to survive.

 

We Southern Region fans have to be very grateful that we now have a fair representation of our typical locomotives.

Edited October 11, 2016 by LC&DR

[No Decorum]

I am currently in model railway heaven. First an N, then a C and now a H, I am afraid to pinch myself in case I wake up and find it is all a bad dream.

 

I hark back to the 1960s when Alan Williams described in Model Railway Constructor how he butchered a Hornby Dublo R1 and three Tri-ang GW clerestories to create the Westerham Push & Pull set.  In those days we could only fantasize about detailed RTR locos and carriages for Southern enthusiasts. His other efforts included a 2Hap from a Tri-ang EMU, a 5Bel from Tri-ang short Pullmans. a 4Cep / 4Bep from Kitmaster Mark 1s and even a SR type carriage washing machine. All these have been recently, are now or very soon will be available to us ready made, except the CWM and the Bep buffet, but we still live in hope.

 

In those days I had already created a West Country from a Tri-ang R50 Princess chassis and  a Kitmaster 'Biggin Hill', shame the driving wheels were spoked and not Boxpoc.  I butchered a Tri-ang 3F tender loco to make a  'C' modifying the firebox, cab and tender top with cardboard stuck on with Uhu. Pretty sad efforts by modern standards but it that age I was pleased with the result. I did manage to persuade father to buy me a L1 for Christmas, and saved my pocket money for a R1, which had an incompatible coupling. The R1 is the only one to survive.

 

We Southern Region fans have to be very grateful that we now have a fair representation of our typical locomotives.

An L1? Dribble!

[RFS]

An L1? Dribble!

 

And perhaps offered with D1 and E1 variants?

[Forester]

Any new South Eastern 4-4-0 is more likely to be a D than an L1, as there is one at York to scan, despite a few dubious modifications.

 

That's what I'm going for anyway.

[47606odin]

well, bringing this thread back on topic, i have just pre ordered the push pull set from Hattons

[Steamport Southport]

E1? Not in significant numbers? I think the numbers ran from 85 - 164, which, if you discount the E Specials viz 157 Barcelona and 158 West Brighton, I make 78 copies, which is quite a lot, really. 

 

Not in significant numbers when the LMS, LNER and GWR equivalents numbered hundreds rather than a class of 78, of which most were rebuilt or withdrawn before 1948. Although that might seem a lot for the SR.

 

Not including those that were mainly used as passenger tanks such as the 64XX family and GER 0-6-0Ts and the smaller classes.

 

863 GWR 57XX

210 GWR 94XX

Plus hundreds of others such as 1901, 2721, 2021, 1854,  etc. many of which survived well into BR days.

 

422 LMS 3F 0-6-0T + 60 MR version

185 MR 1F 0-6-0T

230 L&Y 2F 0-6-0ST

147 CR 3F McIntosh 0-6-0T

102 GNR/LNER J50 0-6-0T

132 GNR/LNER J52 0-6-0ST

120 NER J71 0-6-0T

113 NER/LNER/BR J72 0-6-0T

 

 

Jason

[Wickham Green]

And perhaps offered with D1 and E1 variants?

Careful with that suggestion - you'll end up with an L1 boiler that's far too big for the D1 or E1 ................... I seem to recall that's what DJH appeared to have done with their kit !

[JSpencer]

Funnily enough I was thinking about the R1 when this was originally announced.

 

There aren't really that many small SR shunter types and none of them were built in significant numbers. Discounting what is already available or announced, you've got the G6, E1, E2, P and R1.

 

It would be a good shout for a new model in a few years time I reckon. Quite a bit of the design work would have already been done for the H.

 

 

 

 

Jason

 

The Southern was more commuter trains than freight so it adds up that they do not need many shunters. However if it really must be a shunter, then lets go for a Z class.

[Steamport Southport]

The Southern was more commuter trains than freight so it adds up that they do not need many shunters. However if it really must be a shunter, then lets go for a Z class.

 

The Z class also suffer with the same problem in that they were a small class in number. The same with the other large shunters.

 

 

What I mean is that if you are modelling any of the other Big Four railways then you know that you need a certain class of shunter depending on location. LMS then you buy a Jinty, GWR a 57XX pannier, LNER then a J50, J52 or J72 depending on location. If you're in Scotland then a CR 0-6-0T or a NBR J83.

 

The Southern doesn't really have a definitive shunting locomotive that is a "must have". That probably makes it difficult for the RTR manufacturers to pick which one to produce and small locomotives are in vogue at the moment.

 

Relevant as we were discussing the similarities between the H and the R1.

 

 

 

Jason

[Ian J.]

Hornby could do an R1 (similar to the H), and let Kernow/DHM do the G6 (similar to the O2). That's 66% of the Southern (Region), just leaving someone to do the LB&SC bit.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Ian J.

[JSpencer]

The Z class also suffer with the same problem in that they were a small class in number. The same with the other large shunters.

 

 

What I mean is that if you are modelling any of the other Big Four railways then you know that you need a certain class of shunter depending on location. LMS then you buy a Jinty, GWR a 57XX pannier, LNER then a J50, J52 or J72 depending on location. If you're in Scotland then a CR 0-6-0T or a NBR J83.

 

The Southern doesn't really have a definitive shunting locomotive that is a "must have". That probably makes it difficult for the RTR manufacturers to pick which one to produce and small locomotives are in vogue at the moment.

 

Relevant as we were discussing the similarities between the H and the R1.

 

 

 

Jason

 

It will sell on the grounds that an 0-8-0 shunter makes a nice change from all those 0-6-0 shunters out there.

 

The L&T 2-4-2 tank sold like hot cakes simply because it is rather alone in the RTR market as an 2-4-2.

[Wickham Green]

It will sell on the grounds that an 0-8-0 shunter makes a nice change from all those 0-6-0 shunters out there.

 

The L&T 2-4-2 tank sold like hot cakes simply because it is rather alone in the RTR market as an 2-4-2.

Well, if we're going for a small class of large shunter my vote's for 'Hecate'.

[Torn-on-the-platform]

I am currently in model railway heaven. First an N, then a C and now a H, I am afraid to pinch myself in case I wake up and find it is all a bad dream.

 

I hark back to the 1960s when Alan Williams described in Model Railway Constructor how he butchered a Hornby Dublo R1 and three Tri-ang GW clerestories to create the Westerham Push & Pull set.  In those days we could only fantasize about detailed RTR locos and carriages for Southern enthusiasts. His other efforts included a 2Hap from a Tri-ang EMU, a 5Bel from Tri-ang short Pullmans. a 4Cep / 4Bep from Kitmaster Mark 1s and even a SR type carriage washing machine. All these have been recently, are now or very soon will be available to us ready made, except the CWM and the Bep buffet, but we still live in hope.

 

In those days I had already created a West Country from a Tri-ang R50 Princess chassis and  a Kitmaster 'Biggin Hill', shame the driving wheels were spoked and not Boxpoc.  I butchered a Tri-ang 3F tender loco to make a  'C' modifying the firebox, cab and tender top with cardboard stuck on with Uhu. Pretty sad efforts by modern standards but it that age I was pleased with the result. I did manage to persuade father to buy me a L1 for Christmas, and saved my pocket money for a R1, which had an incompatible coupling. The R1 is the only one to survive.

 

We Southern Region fans have to be very grateful that we now have a fair representation of our typical locomotives.

 

I completely agree! My memories are a little more recent though. I used to dream of modelling Sheffield Park and so when Hornby announced the M7, I bought it because it purely because it was Southern and I thought the closest RTR I would ever get to an LBSCR E4 or SECR H. If a Drummond 700 had been released 10 years ago I'd have saved up for it and made sure I got one, but Bachmann produced a C class, much to my amazement. Away from the Southern theme, I also bought a Collett 2251 as I never dreamed of seeing a Dukedog. We really have had it good!

 

I just hope that if there is a SECR liveried release, it is 263. I've mused before that they have avoided producing preserved examples of the classes they produce - Q1, J15, K1, B12, S15 and Q6 examples are yet to be seen. I would be reasonably comfortable renumbering a BR liveried loco but wouldn't fancy touching the intricate SECR livery!

[Dunsignalling]

The Z class also suffer with the same problem in that they were a small class in number. The same with the other large shunters.

 

 

What I mean is that if you are modelling any of the other Big Four railways then you know that you need a certain class of shunter depending on location. LMS then you buy a Jinty, GWR a 57XX pannier, LNER then a J50, J52 or J72 depending on location. If you're in Scotland then a CR 0-6-0T or a NBR J83.

 

The Southern doesn't really have a definitive shunting locomotive that is a "must have". That probably makes it difficult for the RTR manufacturers to pick which one to produce and small locomotives are in vogue at the moment.

 

Relevant as we were discussing the similarities between the H and the R1.

 

 

 

Jason

If we are considering similarities to other classes, a fairly obvious choice would be the ex-LSWR G6. There were significant variations between the different batches built, but some were almost identical to an O2 from the running plate up. 

 

They were also quite widely distributed over the SW lines with few sheds having more than a couple.

 

John

Edited October 12, 2016 by Dunsignalling

[Steamport Southport]

It will sell on the grounds that an 0-8-0 shunter makes a nice change from all those 0-6-0 shunters out there.

 

The L&T 2-4-2 tank sold like hot cakes simply because it is rather alone in the RTR market as an 2-4-2.

 

And not because there were over 300 of them in an area that spread from North Wales to Hull, from Cumbria and North Yorkshire to the Midlands and with a life span from the 1880s until nearly the end of steam?

 

Sort of puts a class of eight into perspective.

 

 

Jason

[JSpencer]

And not because there were over 300 of them in an area that spread from North Wales to Hull, from Cumbria and North Yorkshire to the Midlands and with a life span from the 1880s until nearly the end of steam?

 

Sort of puts a class of eight into perspective.

 

 

Jason

 

All SR shunting classes are quite small regardless. So better go for something unique. Believe me I would buy several R1s etc and there are many interesting variants, but it lot people may not buy because it is similar to what has been done before.

 

If Bachmann had chosen a 0-4-4 tank loco from a very large class on the former LMS, I would not have been interested having a great choice of SR types to choose from. But the 2-4-2 was something very different.

 

On the same grounds, I doubt I will get the Webb coal tank as it is another 0-6-2 (there exists the 56XX and E4).

 

Sure the H class is another 0-4-4 but this is right on my region and in SECR colours too and preserved on the Bluebell, so I'll get several.

 

(The Z also nearly ended up being preserved on the Bluebell too....)

[GreenGiraffe22]

I don't really care whether 422 or 10 of a class of shunter were built, as long as it is appropriate for the Brighton - Eastbourne pre nationalisation region/era I shall be happy

[Anglian]

I think it's only a matter of time before they do the Z. The G16 and H16 are both big engines and we've not yet had one of those for the SR, although the LBSC L class would be my choice for a big SR tank engine.

Edited October 12, 2016 by Anglian