Playing with an old train set

[unravelled]

I'm currently in the process of having my kitchen redone, and the new subfloor was completed last week. So looking at the bare expanse of ply on Friday, after the builders left, I thought it was too good an opportunity to miss. So after a bit of searching in the workshop and shed, I assembled the bits of a train set not run for about 50 years.

 

This is a gauge 2 train set, comprising a conventional oval of track with two sidings, and only just fits the available space.

 

This was the state of things on Friday evening. Track loosely layed, but as electrics are only at first fix, bad light stopped play.

 

On Saturday morning I had to go out and choose and order the floor tiles, but in the afternoon I assembled the track, and worked out exactly how many curved sections to the circle.

This track consists of rail formed from brass sheet, in bent steel or brass chairs pinned to wooden sleepers on battens.The centre third rail is the same as the running rails, but using taller chairs, although some of the third rail is on the lower chairs on spacers. Track sections are aligned/connected by pins in the hollow rail, linking the sections together. Some of the sections have the pins crimped in, but others are loose, and so many have been lost, that I was unable to properly lay the sidings. After connecting I wenrt round with a multimeter, measuring the resistances across each gap, and cleaning pins where necessary.

The next problem faced was power. I remembered that last time we had run it we had problems. I tried with my gauge 1 controller lashup, an H and M CU1, running off 24 volts. There was a hint of movement, but the cutout tripped too quickly for any running. After giving up for the evening I had a think, and decided to buy a unit I had been considering for some time, so this morning I walked to my local Maplins and bought a bench PSU, 0-20V, 0-5A. I'd first seen these in use on the tinplate 0 gauge layout at Brighton Modelworld, and had been hesitating about the purchase until last night. It did the job, and after a bit of hesitation, the loco was sparking its way around the track.

Unfortunately time has taken its toll on the magnet (I guess), and although the loco will bowl along quite happily, it was unable to haul more than one additional vehicle. Some posed pictures were taken with the full train, and everything packed up for the builders to return ( I hope) tomorrow,

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[kevinlms]

I'm currently in the process of having my kitchen redone, and the new subfloor was completed last week. So looking at the bare expanse of ply on Friday, after the builders left, I thought it was too good an opportunity to miss. So after a bit of searching in the workshop and shed, I assembled the bits of a train set not run for about 50 years.

 

This is a gauge 2 train set, comprising a conventional oval of track with two sidings, and only just fits the available space.

 

 

 

Thanks

 

Dave

Who needs a kitchen, surely you have found a better usage for the space?

[Jenny Emily]

Kitchen? That's what takeaways are for.

[brianusa]

Lovely set in great condition. I like carriage truck for the nobility but I don't know the loco nor its maker.

 

Brian.

[roythebus]

The flangeways on the point seem very fine for that era. 

[sagaguy]

They may be Jub or Lowko,i`ll have a look in the morning.

 

                               Ray.

[Spitfire2865]

Very nice, proper tinplate track, though Ive never seen track attached to battens.

 

I wonder how common it was for defects such as the brake vans solebar being upsidedown to occur.

[Golden Fleece 30]

Basset Lowke track was always fastened to battens as far as I can remember, possibly some Leeds too although theirs may have been home made from parts? The battens kept the sleepers in position especially on the curves and points.

[Nearholmer]

Looks to me like BL track, in that, pre-WW1 (not sure about after) they supplied their finer wood and tubular-rail track in either brass or tinplate, the former to avoid corrosion.

 

The six-wheeler coaches and the carriage truck, and I think the brake van, are Carette for BL. The loco I don't know about, but in the unlikely event that the real experts here don't recognise it, I know a man who will, but he doesn't use RMWeb, so it might take a few days to get his opinion.

 

(One very exciting possibility strikes me for the loco, but I don't want to say it out loud. Are you sure it has a permanent magnet motor? And, if it is actually wound-field, can you see how the fields windings are arranged?)

 

What a wonderful train set, probably dating from c1909-12.

 

Kevin

[unravelled]

Thanks for the comments, I'm glad it's of interest. Unfortunately I've been informed that the kitchen installation will go ahead.

 

The brake van and coach set appear in the 1911 B-L catalogue. The Bowen Cooke 4-6-2 tank (and a similar GC pacific type), are mentioned as being introduced during  the 1912/13 season. As well as the items shown, there are a couple of very crude Carrette vehicles, packed elsewhere. I will photograph them when I find them. The story behind this set is that my father bought it at a Scouts' jumble sale. It was thought to be Gauge one and priced at £5, although I believe he gave them more for it. A lot of repair was needed to the track to bring it to its current state. There are also a couple of lengths of cast chaired track, using  gauge 1 coarse scale components. Apart from up and down test running, the only time it had been run  as a layout was  at a school model railway exhibition, in the mid 60s.

 

I haven't dismantled the loco so can't be sure about the motor type. I have assumed permanent magnet from a vague memory of it being apart when first acquired, but that's over 50 years ago.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Nearholmer]

PS: pretty conclusive identification of your loco as Bing, here http://www.tcawestern.org/bing.htm (you have to ferret around the page to find it, but a clockwork version of it is there alright). Photo copied out below.

 

This knocks my "exciting possibility" on the head (this 'train set' is very exciting in itself, of course!), and I think the Bing for BL locos did have permanent (not very) magnet - I've got the edition of MR&L magazine with the "product launch" write-up in it, so will try to copy that for you, but don't hold your breath, because it will take a few hours of leafing through frail pages to find it.

 

K

Edited September 26, 2016 by Nearholmer

[janner]

Wow! that is such a great set, and I agree about it being pre WW1.

[unravelled]

The track is B-L "Lowco" brand, with gauge 2 still available in the 1930 catalogue. A mention is made that the track is "now with battens", which makes me wonder whether it is later than the loco and stock. The 3 rail track uses brass, and the 2 rail tinplate.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Nearholmer]

I will look in the old mags, but I think that they offered all options, 2 or 3 rail, brass or tin, pre-WW1.

 

The situation as regards battens I don't recall, but they certainly offered all the parts for the home-builder, and c1910 they issued a "recipe" for making-up 'frogs' with tubular rail, as an interim before being able to supply castings for the 'frogs'.

 

Yours looks to have the 'frogs' cut from tubular rail, so it might be contemporary with the rolling-stock.

 

Does the 1930 catalogue show cast 'frogs'? Did the cast 'frogs' ever actually make it into production? I bet chaps in the BL Society know!

 

 

 

K

[Mark Carne]

Nice stuff!

 

Lowko track,ready made on battens was listed in the Bassett Lowke "Abridged illustrated catalogue" of August 1913,and the section "A",model railways catalogue of November 1913. And both make reference to "now laid on battens",just B/L not updating their catalogues like usual! Lowko track was also with a choice of Tin or Brass rail,but 3 rail was brass only. Cannot find any reference to cast frogs for Lowko track points,never seen one either,got quite a bit of gauge 1 lowko track sat here for yet another project I have in mind!

 

And if anyone wants to see such items in action,come to the Train Collectors Society event in Leicester on Saturday 5th November,where a dual gauge 1/2 layout is being displayed! Trinity Methodist church halls,Narborough Road/Hallam Cresent,Leicester,LE3 2RD. 10am til 4pm,and possibly the best value 3 course Christmas lunch you will ever have!

[unravelled]

I had wondered whether the wording was old but unchanged, thanks for the confirmation that the track could be of the same date as the stock.  I had seen a picture of a gauge 2 Great Western train set which included tinplate track, perhaps Lowco was an optional upgrade.

I can see that cast frogs might have been a useful option for the home builder, but IMO, rail built ones usually look better.

 

 

Checking a few more boxes I found the Carrette items, and will post pictures later. I also found  some spare track joiner pins, which I could have done with at the weekend. Also a supply of unused plain and checkrail chairs. I have a vague feeling that the chairs may have come new from Bonds when the track was being restored.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[Il Grifone]

Lovely!

 

I remember an aricle in the model press a long time ago (MRN?) describing the restoration of a similar loco. I can't remember the details apart from  being LNWR, but I have the feeling it was also a 4-6-2T. I do recall the comment regarding the largest and weakest magnet ever. IIRC the vandalism involved a repaint and a new motor. This one is in excellent condition considering its a age and requires no such treatment.

 

A simple check for a permanent magnet is the ability to reverse on changing the polarity of the supply. A motor with a wound field magnet is universal (I.e. AC/DC) and requires some sort of mechanical reverser.

Edited September 28, 2016 by Il Grifone

[PatB]

 A motor with a wound field magnet is universal (I.e. AC/DC) and requires some sort of mechanical reverser.

 

Or, in these days of ultra-cheap solid state electronics, a bridge rectifier in series with the field winding (I think).

Edited September 28, 2016 by PatB

[Il Grifone]

Nowadays a bridge rectifier is the way to go, but they didn't have anything like that back then. It can be in series with either the armature or the field winding, which ever is more convenient.

 

The early models used a simple switch, but later ones have a relay of some kind. This usually takes up nearly as much space as the motor.

[Nearholmer]

Griffone

 

".....but they didn't have anything like that back then......"

 

I was surprised to discover that they did actually have static, chemical, rectifiers 'back then'. Despite having worked in electrical engineering for a long time, I'd never heard of chemical rectifiers until I read about them recently.

 

Not that one could have been accommodated very easily, even on a Gauge 2 loco, because minimum size seems to have been about that of a large jam jar, added to which, they were grossly inefficient, which is probably why they were quickly forgotten.

 

There were some very nice little, domestic-size, "rotary converters" on the market pre-WW1 though, largely for use by people who needed to charge accumulators, but found that their newly created local electricity company had 'done the dirty on them', by choosing to distribute AC.

 

Rather OT; sorry!

 

Kevin

[unravelled]

Off topic is often rather interesting...

 

I remember my father saying that he remembered models with a sequence reverser fitted. I think some variety of relay which meant that the loco changed direction each time power was applied. Probably quite useable once you're used to it.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

[kevinlms]

Griffone

 

".....but they didn't have anything like that back then......"

 

I was surprised to discover that they did actually have static, chemical, rectifiers 'back then'. Despite having worked in electrical engineering for a long time, I'd never heard of chemical rectifiers until I read about them recently.

 

Not that one could have been accommodated very easily, even on a Gauge 2 loco, because minimum size seems to have been about that of a large jam jar, added to which, they were grossly inefficient, which is probably why they were quickly forgotten.

 

There were some very nice little, domestic-size, "rotary converters" on the market pre-WW1 though, largely for use by people who needed to charge accumulators, but found that their newly created local electricity company had 'done the dirty on them', by choosing to distribute AC.

 

Rather OT; sorry!

 

Kevin

They had Selenium rectifiers. A bit large though to fit in even a Gauge 2 loco.

[sncf231e]

Off topic is often rather interesting...

 

I remember my father saying that he remembered models with a sequence reverser fitted. I think some variety of relay which meant that the loco changed direction each time power was applied. Probably quite useable once you're used to it.

 

Thanks

 

Dave

Dave,

 

In the US Lionel and MTH still make locomotives with sequence reversers; of course it is all electronic now (no mechanical relay) but thousands of Americans are used to it.

 

Regards

Fred

Edited September 28, 2016 by sncf231e

[PatB]

Nowadays a bridge rectifier is the way to go, but they didn't have anything like that back then. It can be in series with either the armature or the field winding, which ever is more convenient.

 

The early models used a simple switch, but later ones have a relay of some kind. This usually takes up nearly as much space as the motor.

 

Quite so. However, for useability it strikes me that a modern bridge rectifier could be wired in and concealed within the generous confines of a Gauge 2 model without permanent alteration to the loco. Just on the subject of major alterations to historical models, there was frequent mention in '60s and '70s issues of RM of wholesale chassis replacement of the products of Bassett-Lowke and others, particularly in 0 gauge and particularly replacement of clockwork mechs with electric, although ISTR a few cases of older electric mechs being "updated". Gross vandalism now, but presumably acceptable then.

 

They had Selenium rectifiers. A bit large though to fit in even a Gauge 2 loco.

 

Although a bit late, my first motorcycle, a Honda C90 Step-Thru, had a selenium rectifier (from a slightly earlier version but probably no earlier than 1970, bought secondhand to replace a dud solid state unit) which was basically a cube approximately 2" on a side. Probably too much for a tank engine but it would have easily gone in a tender.

[Mark Carne]

 

Apologies for the naff quality,but photos taken with my mobile phone,but this is one distinct possibility of what lurks inside the Bowen Cooke tank,complete with the "Patent automatic reversing switch",the other possibility is a large magnet type motor as made by Bing. Either way,after 100 plus years,the fact it can even move itself is a bonus! Most electric powered locos of this vintage are a dead loss as runners,all my gauge 1 locos of comparable vintage have been remotored in some way,usually by removing the original magnet and armature,and fitting a modern motor and gearbox inside the original frame.

 

Cheers, Mark.