Playing with an old train set

[Nearholmer]

I don't think selenium rectifiers were commercially available until the 1930s [checked, and that is so], twenty years too late for the "back then" in question, and thermionic valve rectifiers came before selenium rectifiers.

 

Whether selenium was used as a crystal for wireless sets, I don't know, but they weren't far beyond coherers as the semiconductor in 1910. [edit: having checked, I can't find any reference to selenium being used in wireless sets, although it seems that its diode properties had been recognised as far back as the 1880s].

 

K

Edited September 28, 2016 by Nearholmer

[brianusa]

Dave,

 

In the US Lionel and MTH still make locomotives with sequence reversers; of course it is all electronic know (no mechanical relay) but thousands of Americans are used to it.

 

Regards

Fred

The best part about these reversers is that there is a neutral position between forward and reverse. It allows for automatic uncoupling from the engine and in Lionel trains, operation of accessories such as loaders, etc.

 

Brian

[BR60103]

The Lionel sequence reverse (called an E-unit) worked roughly like this:

There was a rotary DPDT switch wired to the field coils, with a ratchet mechanism. There was a weight that moved the ratchet one position every time it was raised and dropped. Turning on the current caused an electromagnet to raise the weight; turning it off dropped the weight and moved the switch one position. The switch had 4 positions -- forward, neutral, reverse, neutral. Most of them also had another bit to turn of the electromagnet so that the ratcheting mechanism didn't work. This was useful for big displays or layouts with poor contact that could operate the reverser unintentionally.

 

Marx had a unit with only 2 positions. I'm not sure about American Flyer.

[Il Grifone]

Off Topic!

 

This was even before the day of the crystal set and the 'cat's whisker'. Radio reception at the time involved coherers or diode valves. It was of course all wireless telegraphy of limited interest to those who didn't know Morse code. Wireless telephony was invented in 1912 IIRC but Broadcasting didn't really start until the launch of the BBC (I'm talking about the UK here) there was a tax on valves which were expensive anyway and receivers were taxed on the number of valves used hence the popularity of 'super regenerative' receivers which used the valve as an RF and AF amplifier and headphones, even after the invention of the loudspeaker (1924 IIRC). There were horn devices before this, but these suffered from what I call 'Designer effect'* and used every shape of horn except the right one, Most people relied on a lump of crystal (selenium?) and a piece of wire which made a precarious contact which the crystal. The art was finding a spot which actually rectified and was prone to losing contact at critical moments. Current capability was low in any case.

 

I believe I am correct in saying the first solid state rectifiers were copper oxide or selenium (from the thirties?) and required large cooling fins. These were popular in fifties TV sets as mains rectifiers and were prone to failure, accompanied by an an evil smell. Low voltage bridge rectifiers were available, but were about 2-3" across thanks to the fins, and still rather large even for a gauge 2 locomotive. By this time. the large gauges were a minority interest; 00/H0 had swept them all away.

 

AC trains used avariety of reversing methods. Hornby preferred switches and in the smaller scale Bing again used a switch. Inth thirties Trix and Märklin brought out systems using magnetic reversers. Trix used a sequence reverser which allowed remote uncoupling on the larger engines (My 'Scotsman' reverses OK, but the uncoupler works when it feels like it - looking at it I'm surprised it works at all - in fairness,it was designed for the original loop couplings and modified for the Peco type). Märklin (at least the ones I've seen) have a dual wound field coil and a 'flip-flop' type relay which energises them alternately. Trix's reverser operates by loss of voltage, which can be triggered by dirty track or short-circuits; Märklin requires a 20V pulse to reverse, which is rather more reliable. Trix reverse the armature polarity, Märklin the field. That said, all my AC locomotives except the Pacific have been converted to DC with diodes.

 

I won't talk about other makes as I know little/nothing about them. The days are long gone when I used to drool over the Lionel items in the Gamages catalogue. They were expensive even then (50s) and very hard to find today. All I have seen were a few beat up pieces at a boot sale about ten years ago for which an exorbitant sum was being asked

Edited September 29, 2016 by Il Grifone

[Nearholmer]

Grifone

 

When I checked, I couldn't find any reference to selenium being used as a crystal in wireless; vast numbers of other things, but not selenium.

 

And, I'm pretty sure that the order of things was: coherers; crystals; thermionic valve diodes; copper oxide rectifiers; selenium rectifiers.

 

But, there was considerable overlap, with crystals being used for a very long time. The liquid chemical diodes that I mentioned earlier seem to have been used only for "power" (very low power) applications, not radio.

 

There is a display of coherers at the science museum, all sorts of variations, but it is very poorly labelled, so my guess is that barely anyone who sees it comes away with the faintest idea what they were for!

 

As a footnote, it is still possible to buy crystal radio receiver kits - they are sold in "novelty toy shops" for about a fiver, and, with a good bit of fiddling, work quite well!

 

Kevin

Edited September 29, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Il Grifone]

Grifone

 

When I checked, I couldn't find any reference to selenium being used as a crystal in wireless; vast numbers of other things, but not selenium.

 

And, I'm pretty sure that the order of things was: coherers; crystals; thermionic valve diodes; copper oxide rectifiers; selenium rectifiers.

 

But, there was considerable overlap, with crystals being used for a very long time. The liquid chemical diodes that I mentioned earlier seem to have been used only for "power" (very low power) applications, not radio.

 

There is a display of coherers at the science museum, all sorts of variations, but it is very poorly labelled, so my guess is that barely anyone who sees it comes away with the faintest idea what they were for!

 

As a footnote, it is still possible to buy crystal radio receiver kits - they are sold in "novelty toy shops" for about a fiver, and, with a good bit of fiddling, work quite well!

 

Kevin

 

I would agree with that order. My guess at Selenium was just a stab in the dark.

 

I had a crystal set in my youth but it used a glass encapsulated diode presumably germanium.  A long length of wire in the garden provided an aerial. Selectivity was atrocious. I could only get the Light Programme on LW clearly. The Home Service and Third Programme on MW always had the other playing in the background. No sign of Luxembourg, but I did get Radio Moscow once. (The station names show how long ago it was.)

 

I assume a modern radio has a ferrite rod aerial. I can't see anyone botrhering with a wire aerial these days.

[sncf231e]

 

 

Marx had a unit with only 2 positions. I'm not sure about American Flyer.

American Flyer 0 gauge and S gauge had in general 4 positions reverse units; later cheaper S gauge locomotives had 2 positions reverse units.

 

Regards

Fred

[Nearholmer]

Grifone

 

I found that the tricky bit with the crystal set was getting the 'whisker' right, springy, some pressure, but not too hard. Apparently, the ideal material is phosphor-bronze wire; the kit contained what looked like a bit of tinned-copper, which was useless. Not having any PB, I filed a point onto a thin strip of NS, which worked fairly well.

 

I used a long wire aerial, in memory of my father, who was a WT operator and "mechanic" during WW2, and was forever stringing massive aerials from the oak tree at the bottom of our garden.

 

Somehow, when trying to get reception on it, I always expected to pick-up a faint distress signal from the Titanic, or the "...We have received no such undertaking; therefore, this country is at war....." speech.

 

K

[Il Grifone]

I missed the joys of the 'cat's whisker' I'm glad to say. I can remember at the time wondering what they were on about as my radio had nothing similar - just a variable capacitor, a coil with a band switch, a diode and terminals for aerial, earth and headphones. All in a neat white bakelite case, like a miniature 'proper' radio. Unfortunately I no longer have it. It was probably a victim of periodic clear-outs of 'junk'. (I've given up on these - you always need that 'useless' item once you've thrown it out!)

 

Later on, I built a six transistor portable superhet kit. It worked, but wasn't very sensitive (possibly due to misalignment or lack of constructional skill).

 

Apologies for off topic! This has little to do with rectifiers and even less with beautiful gauge 2 trains....

[sp1]

I missed the joys of the 'cat's whisker' I'm glad to say. I can remember at the time wondering what they were on about as my radio had nothing similar - just a variable capacitor, a coil with a band switch, a diode and terminals for aerial, earth and headphones. All in a neat white bakelite case, like a miniature 'proper' radio. Unfortunately I no longer have it. It was probably a victim of periodic clear-outs of 'junk'. (I've given up on these - you always need that 'useless' item once you've thrown it out!)

 

Later on, I built a six transistor portable superhet kit. It worked, but wasn't very sensitive (possibly due to misalignment or lack of constructional skill).

 

Apologies for off topic! This has little to do with rectifiers and even less with beautiful gauge 2 trains....

I have one of those white Bakelite ones somewhere!

[Nearholmer]

To get ever-so-slightly back towards topic ........ Wireless receiver kits started to be advertised in model railway magazines almost as early as the date of the real subject of this thread, and 1920s Meccano Mags are wall-to-wall wireless adverts.

 

In short, there was a crossover between membership of these two "technical hobbies".

 

K

[Victorian]

I just stumbled across this excellent thread! I'm currently restoring a Carson / BL G2 4-4-0 Precursor. Here it is on it's first ever run (about 10'). It's the original boiler cleaned of a century of hacking about with soft soldered fittings, reflowed with silver solder to current ME standards. It steams OK, but not as fiercely as a modern loco would. Next step is to find enough track and I do have some identical to that in the OP. Unfortunately the loco requires a 15' circle, so I'm still looking for additional track if anyone knows of any...

 

 

[cypherman]

Hi all,

For a couple of years I helped one of my friends build and play with an O Gauge Hornby railway, We had hours of fun playing with it until it was sold to fund the next project of a 16mm garden railway. I have posted some pictures of it in a different thread but I will post them here for you to enjoy.

[brianusa]

And I thought my layout was big!

 

Brian.

[Victorian]

Stumbling across this old thread, I thought I'd report back on the gauge 2 Carson Precursor....

 

 

Here it is a couple of months ago, running with some rusty but complete Carette G2 bogie coaches. It took several iterations of the burner (which was missing) to get to the present six wick 1/4" stainless mesh configuration. With this, it's a demon! 

 

Here's a link to a video: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xi1tm239owarv04/V_20200712_130000_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0

 

I'm not sure anyone will find this update, but if you do, I hope you enjoy seeing a 1911 gauge 2 locomotive in completely original condition (except for the paint) running in the 21st century!

 

David

 

[Il Grifone]

Why haven't we got an envy/drool button?

 

Not that SWMBO would allow anything like gauge 2! She doesn't know how much gauge 0 I have....  

Edited August 16, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Victorian]

Hello.

 

I've recently acquired a G2 Electric 4-6-2 tank similar to the one in the OP. Here's a pic:

 

 

Note the page in 'The Bassett Lowke Story' showing a clockwork version which is captioned :

"Bing / Bassett Lowe gauge 2 Bowen Cooke 4-6-2 tank on display at 112, High Holborn 1910." The models are identical in detail, except for the mechanism. Incidentally, this model is a much better job than some other Bing offerings. It even has flanges on the centre drivers, but is still 1" shorter than scale!

 

I wonder if anyone can throw light on the history of my loco? It appears to have built as electric, because there's no trace of a winding hole, but the motor is WWII surplus. Here's a pic:

 

 

This mech is very well made, not a clockwork conversion, and appears designed for the motor. So if the motor is WWII surplus, who made this mechanism for a gauge 2 loco post 1945, and why? 

 

I've had good success in fitting battery RC without modifying the model in any way, apart from removing the large and unsightly 3 rail skate. It's a wound field motor and I've replaced the WWII era selenium rectifier with a Schottky diode bridge, wired in a shunt field configuration. (Schottky diodes have a lower forward voltage, don't heat up and don't waste battery power). Power is provided by four 18650 LiPo cells, which together with the essential battery management PCB fit very neatly into the front half of the boiler.  here's another pic:

 

 

Note the Battery pack, heavily insulated, in the foreground You do have to take every precaution to ensure that there are no sharp edges, projecting screws or other bits of metal that could puncture the battery pack. These cells are 2600 mAh and run the model for around 2 Hrs, That's the equivalent of about 20W continuous power, most of which is wasted in the highly inefficient 1940's technology motor. Despite this, the loco is sparky performer and probably delivers more output for a longer time than it ever did in 3-rail days.

 

Here it is with a little cabal of pre-WW1 Pacific tanks:

 

 

From L-R, 'Abergavenny' by Butcher, GCR Robinson tank by Bing (clockwork) and the Bowen Cooke tank, all gauge 2 c. 1910.

 

Finally here's a little video showing what a gauge 2 train actually looks like whist running in the 21st century. I wonder what Greenly and Bassett Lowke, who were so keen to kill off G2 after the Great War, would say? (Incidentally, G2 is the smallest gauge where you actually feel the vibrations of an approaching train through the ground, because the stock is really chunky compared with G1!

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p20ldn08qmgiarx/V_20210404_163508_vHDR_Auto.mp4?dl=0

 

David

[Nearholmer]

Bootiful!

 

I’ve got the impression that G2 died a natural death, rather than being killed-off, and that it was struggling to find a niche even before WW1. Not making products to serve a market that doesn’t really exist, is possibly a forgivable sin.

 

Doesn’t detract from the majesty of it though. Maybe you should spearhead a commercial revival - it’s happened for G3.

[Victorian]

On 10/04/2021 at 12:47, Nearholmer said:

Bootiful!

 

I’ve got the impression that G2 died a natural death, rather than being killed-off, and that it was struggling to find a niche even before WW1. Not making products to serve a market that doesn’t really exist, is possibly a forgivable sin.

 

Doesn’t detract from the majesty of it though. Maybe you should spearhead a commercial revival - it’s happened for G3.

 

Thanks for those comments. Actually, there did seem to be a tacit agreement to rationalise the gauges after the war. In 1917 Greenly wrote an editorial asking which gauges should survive and luminaries like Twining and Bassett Lowke replied universally agreeing that G2 should go. A sub-text was that almost all the G2 equipment was of German origin, so it was gone anyway. Quite rationally they chose G1, and also at the same time condemned 3 1/4" in favour of the 3 1/2" we know today. Bassett Lowke explained that keeping G1 and G2 meant duplication of the same designs, tools and parts in two incompatible sizes making production less efficient.

 

We simply cannot see it through their eyes in the depth of that terrible war, wondering what the model railway industry would look like when peace finally came, It's amazing that they could do that at all, and we have to admire their courage and tenacity in discussing the future at so bleak a time. So G2 didn't really die on the vine as I'd always imaged - it was killed off by Greenly, WJ and others. Was it the right thing to do? I happen to think G2 is the nicer gauge, but that's with my rose tinted spectacles looking back on a privileged lifetime spent not having to survive a war, let alone try to salvage some sort of post war economy after it. 

 

Most of these comments are drawn from Greenly's 'Models, Railways and Locomotives', where before the war, G2 ranked a close second to G1. It probably was in decline by 1914 but after the 1917 editorial, the magazine never ran another G2 article.

 

Anyway, today their decision presents us with a 'Beeching' moment. Much of the G2 stock still exists in treasured collections, just like the abandoned trackbeds that gave us our modern heritage railway industry. Let's bring these long forgotten models out of hiding and place them again where they belong, on the rails!

[unravelled]

On 10/04/2021 at 11:08, Victorian said:

Hello.

 

I've recently acquired a G2 Electric 4-6-2 tank similar to the one in the OP. Here's a pic:

 

 

Note the page in 'The Bassett Lowke Story' showing a clockwork version which is captioned :

"Bing / Bassett Lowe gauge 2 Bowen Cooke 4-6-2 tank on display at 112, High Holborn 1910." The models are identical in detail, except for the mechanism. Incidentally, this model is a much better job than some other Bing offerings. It even has flanges on the centre drivers, but is still 1" shorter than scale!

 

I wonder if anyone can throw light on the history of my loco? It appears to have built as electric, because there's no trace of a winding hole, but the motor is WWII surplus. Here's a pic:

 

 

This mech is very well made, not a clockwork conversion, and appears designed for the motor. So if the motor is WWII surplus, who made this mechanism for a gauge 2 loco post 1945, and why? 

 

I've had good success in fitting battery RC without modifying the model in any way, apart from removing the large and unsightly 3 rail skate. It's a wound field motor and I've replaced the WWII era selenium rectifier with a Schottky diode bridge, wired in a shunt field configuration. (Schottky diodes have a lower forward voltage, don't heat up and don't waste battery power). Power is provided by four 18650 LiPo cells, which together with the essential battery management PCB fit very neatly into the front half of the boiler.  here's another pic:

 

 

 

 

I'm late to spot this reply, thanks for the post. I recognise that motor, I have several stripped out of army  surplus equipment by my father.

Nice to see that G2 is still of interest

 

Dave

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hi all,

 

Gauge 2 is certainly still of interest, to me at least! Currently I’m scratch building a electric freelance 4-4-0 in Gauge 2. Once it’s done it will look something like a LNWR jubilee class but without the outside cylinders. 
 

 

Here are some photos. (It was going to be live steam hence the boiler construction but the steam generation to use equation was done wrong)

 

 

 

Douglas

[Victorian]

Hello Douglas. Thanks for the post. This might be the first new G2 locomotive this century!

 

Do you have track? Actually there is a US Standard Gauge at I believe 2 1/8" which might serve with wide G2 wheels. I've seen boxes of tinplate track at US train shows.

 

Please keep us posted. David

 

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

10 hours ago, Victorian said:

Hello Douglas. Thanks for the post. This might be the first new G2 locomotive this century!

 

Do you have track? Actually there is a US Standard Gauge at I believe 2 1/8" which might serve with wide G2 wheels. I've seen boxes of tinplate track at US train shows.

 

Please keep us posted. David

 

 

 

Hi David,

 

 

Currently the project is on hold as my OO layout is taking up all my attention at the moment, and the frames on the engine need remaking as I cut them wrong, this will get done at some point.  I hope to use wheels from a Lionel Standard gauge engine, as I can’t afford Walsall castings to be shipped over here. I have thought about using standard gauge track but figured I’d stay in gauge 2.

[Pacific231G]

On 11/04/2021 at 15:15, Victorian said:

 

Thanks for those comments. Actually, there did seem to be a tacit agreement to rationalise the gauges after the war. In 1917 Greenly wrote an editorial asking which gauges should survive and luminaries like Twining and Bassett Lowke replied universally agreeing that G2 should go. A sub-text was that almost all the G2 equipment was of German origin, so it was gone anyway. Quite rationally they chose G1, and also at the same time condemned 3 1/4" in favour of the 3 1/2" we know today. Bassett Lowke explained that keeping G1 and G2 meant duplication of the same designs, tools and parts in two incompatible sizes making production less efficient.

 

We simply cannot see it through their eyes in the depth of that terrible war, wondering what the model railway industry would look like when peace finally came, It's amazing that they could do that at all, and we have to admire their courage and tenacity in discussing the future at so bleak a time. So G2 didn't really die on the vine as I'd always imaged - it was killed off by Greenly, WJ and others. Was it the right thing to do? I happen to think G2 is the nicer gauge, but that's with my rose tinted spectacles looking back on a privileged lifetime spent not having to survive a war, let alone try to salvage some sort of post war economy after it. 

 

Most of these comments are drawn from Greenly's 'Models, Railways and Locomotives', where before the war, G2 ranked a close second to G1. It probably was in decline by 1914 but after the 1917 editorial, the magazine never ran another G2 article.

 

Anyway, today their decision presents us with a 'Beeching' moment. Much of the G2 stock still exists in treasured collections, just like the abandoned trackbeds that gave us our modern heritage railway industry. Let's bring these long forgotten models out of hiding and place them again where they belong, on the rails!

In April 1909's Model Railway (and Locomotives)  in his description of "Mr. H.F.R. Franklin's Model Railway" Greenly says "Except where cost and space is limited, gauge no. 0 need not be considered, more especially as the range of locomotives is rather small. Gauge No. 1 is quite suitable and can be well recommended  for all rooms of medium size especially if the system is to be extended to its utmost capacity. The 2" gauge is of course the best if steam locomotives are intended to form part of the motive power, but it must be remembered that scale models of large modern engines- of the six-coupled type, to wit- cannot be made to traverse curves of 6 or 7 feet radius. Mr. Franklin has adopted 2" gauge." In his "medium size room" the layout occupied a space of 14ft 4ins by about 10 ft with a double track oval with a single trailing crossover and an  inside track radius of about 4ft 3ins plus a few sidings. It ran with outside fired steam locos.  

[Victorian]

I believe that I met Harry Franklin once. As a young boy I began exploring the local villages and found myself cycling along a back lane in Radwell, Beds, probably trying to find a vantage spot overlooking the former Midland main line. My attention was drawn by what appeared to be a long derelict tin shed. A suitable gap in the hedge allowed me to crawl inside and when I stood up in the gloom I was astonished to find myself standing on the track of a miniature railway!

 

I explored the whole line, walking along a high embankment that ran beside the main line and across a steel girder bridge leading eventually to a complete miniature station with platform, signal box and, most interesting of all, an engine shed. The windows were opaque with mildew but peering through the crack the in doors I could just make out the smoke box of a little loco, distinctive by it’s slatted chimney. (I now know this engine to have been ‘Highland Mary’, happily still existing though I’m not sure if running).

 

The derelict station backed onto the garden of an immaculately kept thatched cottage and I summoned up courage to cycle back down the lane and knock on the front door to ask if I could see in the engine shed. The white haired elderly gentleman who came to the door must have been Franklin himself. Unfortunately he must have had trouble already with small boys (the tin tunnel was completely stove in, presumably by vandals) and he gave me very short shrift indeed. I never dared go back. This would have been c. 1960.

 

Memories!