ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation

[keefer]

might be Mk2f FO 3284 - it was a regular spare for the mk3 trains - it eventually got InterCity then ScotRail livery.

 

further discussion of it starting here: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/57319-class-27-push-pulls-1970s/?p=712652

 

it was supposedly fitted with disc brakes, but there's no hard evidence either way

 

it was also mentioned in the January '82 RO. the lack of mk3s then available was made worse when Sc12018 was set on fire and destroyed by vandals, at glasgow works. "in the meantime mk2f FO Sc3284 continues to run, coupled next to the loco and declassified, in one of the sets"

Edited February 15, 2018 by keefer

[Bob Reid]

Definitely too early for anything other than 3284 - the only one dedicated to the E&G fleet - and no it never was fitted with disc brakes or WSP - it kept the tread brakes all of it's life on the E&G. I think it's up to those that insist it was to find photo's and not repeat the mistake in the Harris book.

[hexagon789]

When first introduced the 47/7s still had a 95 mph "official" maximum. We're they able to run at 95 from their introduction or were linespeeds on the Edinburgh and Glasgow still 90 max? Also when we're the 47/7s "officially" allowed to run at 100 mph? Cheers, Ben

[mjkerr]

Also when we're the 47/7s "officially" allowed to run at 100 mph?

The Class 47/7 were never allowed to run at 100mph, they were still maximum speed 95mph

However, they were permitted to operate at maximum speed 100mph on specific routes (HST speed limit board)

Initially it was Haymarket to Bishopbriggs (47701 to 47712)

This was then extended to Aberdeen to Bishopbriggs, when push-pull operations commenced

Then finally Haymarket to Dundee, when 47713 to 47716 were converted

 

If a Class 47/7 missed its exam (as the interval was shorter, which later caused some issues when the locomotives were transferred from HA to ED) it would be removed from this pool of locomotives until the exam had been completed

In most cases if required the locomotive would be treated as a Class 47/4 to keep it off the 100mph permitted routes, in most cases GQS or EDB station pilot duties or Edinburgh - Carstairs, it could then receive the exam before the next day 

 

Equally, I remember 47713 suffered an ETH fault and was used on EDB station duties for a few days until the fault could be rectified 

A few days later it went pop...

Edited February 19, 2018 by mjkerr

[GordonC]

If the 47/7s had special permission on limited internal Scottish routes for 100mph operation, did they revert to 95mph limits when they were transferred for use elsewhere? I think any books I've ever seen always have them listed as having a maximum speed of 100mph

[keefer]

maybe 100mph was allowed for the 47/7s but only; 1) on the E-G, and 2)as long as they had an enhanced maintenance schedule (which I presume they did)?

Can't remember if it's been mentioned previously but did Scotland even have any other 100mph lines (for LH trains)?

[DY444]

maybe 100mph was allowed for the 47/7s but only; 1) on the E-G, and 2)as long as they had an enhanced maintenance schedule (which I presume they did)?

Can't remember if it's been mentioned previously but did Scotland even have any other 100mph lines (for LH trains)?

 

The WCML had some 100mph Scottish sections south of Carstairs at that time which dated from electrification. 

Edited May 7, 2018 by DY444

[GordonC]

I was thinking more when they had been transferred to NSE or parcels duties after the sprinters took over in scotland. There must have been many routes they encountered which allowed 100mph running

[keefer]

What I was getting at was they would return to 95mph max once away from the E-G.

IIRC there was dispensation from the CM&EE for the push-pulls but subject to specific conditions being met. This would no longer apply when transferred away.

I'd have thought enhanced maintenance would be included, given how the 27s started to disintegrate due to the relentless schedule (even at their rated top speed)

[kevinlms]

What I was getting at was they would return to 95mph max once away from the E-G.

IIRC there was dispensation from the CM&EE for the push-pulls but subject to specific conditions being met. This would no longer apply when transferred away.

I'd have thought enhanced maintenance would be included, given how the 27s started to disintegrate due to the relentless schedule (even at their rated top speed)

My guess is that they would revert to 95mph with standard maintenance.

[keefer]

I think it's kind of academic anyway, they were in such poor condition by the time they moved south.

They'd been thrashed day-in, day-out for years and latterly, it was probably only the skill of the ED/HA fitters that kept them running.

[tractor_37260]

I'm looking for a close up photo of preferably a Blue backed loco data panel as fitted to some 47/7's in Exec livery, or the information shown in one.

 

Is there a resource anywhere with information on loco data panels for different loco classes etc ? 

 

TIA

 

Ken

Edited May 8, 2018 by tractor_37260

[45125]

I think it's kind of academic anyway, they were in such poor condition by the time they moved south.

They'd been thrashed day-in, day-out for years and latterly, it was probably only the skill of the ED/HA fitters that kept them running.

 

When we had 702 and 711 on Cross Country, the TOPS print outs always gave the max speed as 100mph. There was always always some debate that they were 100mph. The management always though they were, and they would get to 100mph quite easily (702 was a slug for a while, the diverts got wired up incorrectly).

[hexagon789]

maybe 100mph was allowed for the 47/7s but only; 1) on the E-G, and 2)as long as they had an enhanced maintenance schedule (which I presume they did)?

Can't remember if it's been mentioned previously but did Scotland even have any other 100mph lines (for LH trains)?

There were 100 mph sections for part of the Glasgow-Aberdeen line running some/all of the sections between Larbert-Stirling, Gleneagles-Perth, Dundee-Arbroath and Laurencekirk-Stonehaven more or less as now.

 

I think they were first introduced for the HSTs.

[Waverley47708]

Thanks to a post by Bob Reid on the Bachmann Mk2f topic became aware of some oddities!!

 

https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p439043905/hA227EF11#ha227ef11

 

The Mk3 next to the loco has the light grey band above the windows extended onto the roof, the one second from the loco appears to have a lighter roof than normal.  That may be as a result of the light rather than anything else.  Based on other photos I have seen of a 4 coach rake, I am going to suggest this shortened rake of 4 coaches may have been 47708 working a shuttle to do with an open day at Perth in 1985

 

https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p439043905/hA227EF0C#ha227ef0c

 

A DBSO with a light grey band above the windows extended onto the roof.  The third coach looks like it also has the higher above window bank and a darker blue stripe.

 

https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p609388398/hbc265852#hbc265845

 

A pair of DBSOs at Waverley. One of which has silver window surrounds.

 

https://topticl.zenfolio.com/p609388398/hbc265852#hbc265852

 

Finally one DBSO at Waverley.

Edited November 20, 2018 by Waverley47708

[Tiddles47]

Does anyone know if the destination labels in the droplights were stuck on  in any particular order?e.g only in the left hand doors ony or the right hand doors only or all four or in an ad-hoc way and were they stuck on the DBSO droplights too? I have some from Railtec Transfers and just want to know where they were stuck on. 

 

Thanks 

[GordonC]

I thought the Edinburgh - Glasgow ones just had one set of scotrail express labels on all droplight windows with the two destinations and they were also coloured matching the livery.

 

I thought at least one set of doors in the DBSOs had something like red labels maybe showing not for public use.

 

The Glasgow to Aberdeens had different stop patterns and they were changed at each end.

[keefer]

There's a pic of SC 9706 on Robert Carroll's Flickr with the red/white labels - IIRC they just said 'Edinburgh-Glasgow'. This was in blue/grey days and is in one of the other ScR push-pull threads

[Tiddles47]

Did the P/P sets ever have coach lettering e.g A B C D E and if so which way round?

[St Enodoc]

Did the P/P sets ever have coach lettering e.g A B C D E and if so which way round?

Not in my time - there were no seat reservations so no need for coach letters. Bob Reid or others will no doubt confirm the situation post-1983.

[mjkerr]

Did the P/P sets ever have coach lettering e.g A B C D E and if so which way round?

Some Aberdeen services had seat reservations, so had coach letters

From memory it was as follows, but it might be the other way round (Coach B First Class)

A B C would be standard (64 seats)

D would be First Class (42 seats)

E would be standard (32 seats)

Therefore it did not matter whether the rake included Mark 2 or Mark 3 TSO / standard

[hexagon789]

I thought rather than start a new thread, it made more sense to simply add on to this one.

 

I'm now looking at loco-hauled operations after the end of the push-pulls in early 1990.

 

I believe that some loco-hauled workings (possibly only seasonal?) lastest until about 1994, so I'm terribly sorry to be a pain but I have some questions about this. I do appreciate there have been some threads about this but none have gone into the explicit detail I'm looking for and I also have some related questions:

 

1. I believe the routes that the last loco-hauled workings were on were primary Edinburgh-Inverness, Inverness-Aberdeen and some workings on Inverness-Kyle and Edinburgh to Aberdeen. Does anyone know roughly when workings on each of these routes ran until and if at all possible the actual services?

 

2. What was the usual make up of sets or was it quite random?

 

3. How long did 47/7s last after the end for the ScotRail Express push-pulls?

 

4. By extension what services ended up using 156s while waiting for 158s to enter service?

 

5. Did any of the loco-hauled stuff cover for unavailable new DMUs?

 

Thanks for any replies

[ChrisH-UK]

In answer to 3, the 47/7 started being redeployed as soon as they started running down the service, I think dates for certain locos have been given in threads, my recollection is that most were gone by July 1990.

 

After the summer timetables ended at the beginning of September, with the exception of rescues and the Fife Circle, I do not recall there being any booked loco-hauled workings until the summer of 1991, which was mainly the Inverness-Aberdeen and also the Kyle Line as you suggested. I believe there were others but I don't remember the specifics.

I remember 92 and 93 as being a mini renaissance in Scotland with the addition of loco-hauled services from Inverness and Aberdeen to Edinburgh and on the West Highland line.

 

Details of the 1991 services were printed in an issue of RAIL, I'll see if I can dig it out but the chances are someone else will have the details before me, they probably exist for subsequent years too, I just remember the 'fanfare' that accompanied the 1991 services was bigger and have a clear image of what I'm looking for.

 

Chris H

[adb968008]

Inverness - Kyle had the Hebriddean Heritage set with 37/4s that lasted beyond sprinterisation.

156’s took over all Far North services in 1989, same time as the bridge collapse at Loch Ness, the 156’s were roaded across to enable far north lines to be sprinterised in the original time lines.

 

WHL was either just before or just after.

 

i think it was 1990 158’s took over Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness from 47’s.

 

There was a winter of discontent, as 158’s didn’t have adequate ploughs, so 158/156 hybrid units were created, and had to run round the triangle at Inverness to have the 156 leading southbound.

 

i think last time I had a 26 for haulage, was Aberdeen to Inverness circa 1988, though I did railtours with them into the 1990’s, and I’ve pictures of them at Queen street still around 1988/9.

 

regional Railways 37/4s took over Aberdeen -Inverness services in 1993 - 1995 for a period, with Scotrail branded Regional Railways stock.

 

Scotrail sleeper has never ceased to be Loco hauled.

 

[adb968008]

On 15/12/2018 at 18:45, GordonC said:

I thought the Edinburgh - Glasgow ones just had one set of scotrail express labels on all droplight windows with the two destinations and they were also coloured matching the livery.

 

I thought at least one set of doors in the DBSOs had something like red labels maybe showing not for public use.

 

The Glasgow to Aberdeens had different stop patterns and they were changed at each end.

Here’s a couple I “saved” just in case 30 years later someone may ask what they looked like...

 

They were at every door, sometimes at an inside main window by the toilets

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by adb968008