ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation

[GordonC]

There was one spare Mk2F FO which was kept spare in case of problems with one of the Mk3A COs and it was never converted to be a CO. I thought the sets were shortened when the Aberdeens were turned over to Push-Pull working and the extra 47713-47717 came in to form extra sets of coaches.

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

Apologies I have not figured out multi quote yet.

Just highlight each segment of text, click 'quote selection'. Then type your reply and just repeat for each part of the post you are replying to individually. Hopefully I'm explaining that alright!

 

2 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

I really need to dig out my VHS or find the DVD copies I made of Yesterdays ScotRail  as I say above mostly October 1985.  From memory mostly 6 coach rakes some COs but possibly some Mk3a FOs.  Definitely a Mk2 aircon FO. A great video, the quality is not brilliant but around an hour of great action from the end of Plt 15.

As i understand, and again this is simply observation by going through countless photo galleries and some books - that initially the sets were painted into ScotRail still in original formation with a full first (FO), painting commencing in late-1984. Then the FO were converted to CO during 1985, and it seemed to me that sets were dropped to five coaches but I'll admit going back through some Flickr galleries today turned up both five and six coach sets in 1985.

 

I like the sound of Yesterday's ScotRail, don't suppose you know if it's still available? It's exactly the sort of thing that appeals to my interests!

 

2 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

On the number of services per hour, that is odd, I was sure, as in I'd have put money on it that there were 3 per hour in 1985 however my 13 May 1985 to 11 May 1986 WTT and my passenger timetable have 2 per hour, departing Waverley on the hour and half past.  Upto the loft later to check the next timetable to see if it changed by then.  Interestingly I am sure that the next timetable did not cover the full year.  I say I am sure but given how certain I was about the there being 3 per hour in 1985 I am not sure I trust anything I say now!  They did go to 4 per hour but not sure I have that timetable to check when as my interest wanes by 1987.

It's not that I wanted to say you were wrong I hope you understand, it's just when forming the basis for my own layout I obtained a large selection of BR and BR Scottish Region/ScotRail timetables for background info.

 

There was until the advent of the 'Tartan Taktfahrplan' in May 1982 a Glasgow Queen Street-Falkirk Grahamston-Edinburgh all stops DMU service which left immediately after one of the via Falkirk High push-pulls. This would have provided 3tph Glasgow-Edinburgh but only two would've been fast push-pull services. (Perhaps it is this arrangement that gives the 3tph you are thinking of?)

 

In May 1982 in order to facilitate acceleration of the main Edinburgh l-Glasgow shuttle and to provide for the greater connectivity that was the essential genesis of the "Takt", the Glasgow-Falkirk G'ston-Edinburgh stopper was split at Grahamston into two separate services.

 

To summarise the 1980s:

 

1980-81: two push-pull per hour timings as per 27s (47-49 mins), plus hourly via Grahamston stopping DMU

 

May 1982: two push-pull per hour, timings accelerated to 47 mins calling at Falkirk High, 44 mins calling at Haymarket only 

 

May 1984: 47/7s passed for 100mph running, timings further accelerated to 42/45 mins 

 

May 1985: Falkirk High made a call in both services, 45 mins journey time 

 

May 1986: Polmont and Linlithgow inserted as stops, service altering calls between each. Journey time now 48 mins with 3 stops.

 

May 1990: Class 156s take over temporarily pending introduction of the 158s, journey time now 50 mins

 

September 1999: 100mph Class 170 TurboStars introduced on a 15 min frequency from 0700-1900, journey time is 48-50 mins with 3 or 4 stops.

 

There were of course additional services in the peaks back in 47/7 days which would've given 3 or 4 trains but only within a one or two hour window.

 

 

 

 

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, GordonC said:

There was one spare Mk2F FO which was kept spare in case of problems with one of the Mk3A COs and it was never converted to be a CO. I thought the sets were shortened when the Aberdeens were turned over to Push-Pull working and the extra 47713-47717 came in to form extra sets of coaches.

The Mk2f FO came into use much earlier - 1981 I think and was used in place of the FOs as necessary. By the time the Glasgow-Aberdeen went to push-pull it was usually formed in one of the Aberdeen sets which were mostly Mk2D/E coaches and that would've been before the Mk3 FOs were converted to COs.

 

Given the additional Aberdeen sets were simply the existing Mk2 air-con stock with the BSO swapped for a DBSO I don't think the Mk3 sets were shortened to allow for the Glasgow-Aberdeen service to go fully push-pull as it would've been unnecessary.

 

My best guess is it enabled the Mk2Z spare set to be stood down and a additional all Mk3 rake to be formed up instead to provide this cover at the expense of the sets being one coach shorter.

[keefer]

I remembered mention of 3284 in one of the other push-pull threads.

From January 1982 R.O.:

[The lack of mk3s available was made worse when Sc12018 was set on fire and destroyed by vandals, at Glasgow Works.] "in the meantime mk2f FO Sc3284 continues to run, coupled next to the loco and declassified, in one of the sets" (jan.1982 ed.)

So, as @hexagon789 says, 3284 was already in use mid-late 1981 (in b/g) due to a lack of Mk3s - even before the incident with 12018.

IIRC 3284 ran for some time in InterCity livery (red stripe) before going into ScotRail (blue stripe) in the mid-'80s.

[Bomag]

3 hours ago, keefer said:

I remembered mention of 3284 in one of the other push-pull threads.

From January 1982 R.O.:

[The lack of mk3s available was made worse when Sc12018 was set on fire and destroyed by vandals, at Glasgow Works.] "in the meantime mk2f FO Sc3284 continues to run, coupled next to the loco and declassified, in one of the sets" (jan.1982 ed.)

So, as @hexagon789 says, 3284 was already in use mid-late 1981 (in b/g) due to a lack of Mk3s - even before the incident with 12018.

IIRC 3284 ran for some time in InterCity livery (red stripe) before going into ScotRail (blue stripe) in the mid-'80s.

 

The pressure on Mk3s goes back to 1980 where two TSO were written off and three more coaches damaged at Bushey. When 12018 was withdrawn it was replaced by 12005; 12050 was drafted in but 12006 was lost at Polment. Given LMR shortages and the refurbishment program, 12009 and 12050 had gone back to IWCX/WB in 1986.

 

There were only ever 7 FOs (11004-11010) and then 7 COs (11905-11910 + 11922), so by 1981 there could be up to a sets worth of Mk3a TSOs which could be formed with 3284 and a spare DBSO to create a spare set (assuming, I think, 6 diagrams with 1 cyclic maintenance spare Mk3a FO). Having a spare set is more flexible than having individual coaches, however, the fluctuation in TSO could have meant that there were no spare TSOs to swap in overnight at all. I assume that conversion of the FO to CO allowed the loss of the fourth TSO without off peak overcrowding to give the ability to more reliably run the number of diagrams. I don't know the rider ship figures for E+G for the mid 1980's but the reduction to 3 TSOs per set predates the UK wide reduction in passenger numbers in the late 80's. 

 

[Waverley47708]

On 16/08/2021 at 20:02, hexagon789 said:

It's not that I wanted to say you were wrong I hope you understand, it's just when forming the basis for my own layout I obtained a large selection of BR and BR Scottish Region/ScotRail timetables for background info.

 

Don't worry, it looks like I was wrong,  like you I have got old timetables for the period I model and they are 2 per hour upto the 12 May to 28 September 86 one.  That is the last national timetable I have.  Funny how your memory plays tricks as I was sure they went to 3 per hour at some stage before going to 4. 

 

Anyone know why there was a timetable covering only May to September in 86 rather than whole year.  The preceeding one was May 85 to May 86, as was the one before that.

 

On 16/08/2021 at 20:02, hexagon789 said:

like the sound of Yesterday's ScotRail, don't suppose you know if it's still available?

 

Yes it is great, I bought it around 15 years ago at a model railway exhibition in Elgin.  The man who sold it told me the quality wasn't great, but the footage more than makes up for it.  I've looked online for it in DVD format but never found it.  It was produced by 73C Productions.

 

On 16/08/2021 at 20:02, hexagon789 said:

Just highlight each segment of text, click 'quote selection

 

Handy, thanks.

 

On 16/08/2021 at 20:02, hexagon789 said:

There was until the advent of the 'Tartan Taktfahrplan' in May 1982

 

 OK, what was the 'Tartan Taktfahrplan'?

[Legend]

53 minutes ago, Waverley47708 said:

 

 

 

 OK, what was the 'Tartan Taktfahrplan'?

 

Refers to major re cast of the summer 1982 Scotrail timetable .  This might actually be the first time that Scotrail brand appeared (on the timetable).  It was a revised Basic Interval Timetable , with the same round the clock departures repeated every hour .  

 

From Janes Railway Yearbook  the highlights were Glasgow Dundee trains curtailed at Perth but enabling change to Aberdeen train at Perth permitting hourly Aberdeen trains in the path formerly used by Dundee train (previously Glasgow Aberdeen had been every two hours).  Stirling was a major change over point with Perth/ Dunblane stopping services from Glasgow recast to allow connections to Aberdeen train at Stirling .   Edinburgh to Dunblane services doubled to half hourly .  As has previously been referred to the old stopping Glasgow QS- Falkirk Grahamston -Edinburgh local was replaced by Glasgow QS to Falkirk High services and this freed up path for extra Edinburgh - Dunblane trains . I think you could still make connection between trains at Grahamston.

 

Really 1982 timetable was the foundation for probably the next 30 years or so until Edinburgh - Glasgow went 4 per hour . 

[hexagon789]

On 17/08/2021 at 09:42, keefer said:

I remembered mention of 3284 in one of the other push-pull threads.

From January 1982 R.O.:

[The lack of mk3s available was made worse when Sc12018 was set on fire and destroyed by vandals, at Glasgow Works.] "in the meantime mk2f FO Sc3284 continues to run, coupled next to the loco and declassified, in one of the sets" (jan.1982 ed.)

So, as @hexagon789 says, 3284 was already in use mid-late 1981 (in b/g) due to a lack of Mk3s - even before the incident with 12018.

IIRC 3284 ran for some time in InterCity livery (red stripe) before going into ScotRail (blue stripe) in the mid-'80s.

Yes, ISTR that was discussed in another thread but thanks for confirming the details. It's quite a nice little detail to be able to model a slightly different push-pull set by inserting a Mk2F FO at a time when the Mk2 air-con push-pull sets didn't exist of course.

 

19 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

The pressure on Mk3s goes back to 1980 where two TSO were written off and three more coaches damaged at Bushey. When 12018 was withdrawn it was replaced by 12005; 12050 was drafted in but 12006 was lost at Polment. Given LMR shortages and the refurbishment program, 12009 and 12050 had gone back to IWCX/WB in 1986.

 

There were only ever 7 FOs (11004-11010) and then 7 COs (11905-11910 + 11922), so by 1981 there could be up to a sets worth of Mk3a TSOs which could be formed with 3284 and a spare DBSO to create a spare set (assuming, I think, 6 diagrams with 1 cyclic maintenance spare Mk3a FO). Having a spare set is more flexible than having individual coaches, however, the fluctuation in TSO could have meant that there were no spare TSOs to swap in overnight at all. I assume that conversion of the FO to CO allowed the loss of the fourth TSO without off peak overcrowding to give the ability to more reliably run the number of diagrams. I don't know the rider ship figures for E+G for the mid 1980's but the reduction to 3 TSOs per set predates the UK wide reduction in passenger numbers in the late 80's. 

 

Again thanks for the details, I knew the LMR was always loathe to give up first it's Mk2Z stock and then of course Mk3A stock to the ScR but I'd overlooked the various accidents reducing the number of vehicles and thus making things much 'tighter.

 

57 minutes ago, Waverley47708 said:

Anyone know why there was a timetable covering only May to September in 86 rather than whole year.  The preceeding one was May 85 to May 86, as was the one before that.

BR went back to publishing timetables twice a year, after only publishing one from May valid until next May since 1974.

 

There is thus a winter 1986 timetable (October 1986 to May 1987 I believe) and two timetables per year from 1986 to privatisation.

 

1 hour ago, Waverley47708 said:

Yes it is great, I bought it around 15 years ago at a model railway exhibition in Elgin.  The man who sold it told me the quality wasn't great, but the footage more than makes up for it.  I've looked online for it in DVD format but never found it.  It was produced by 73C Productions.

Thanks, I'll have a look around for it

 

1 hour ago, Waverley47708 said:

OK, what was the 'Tartan Taktfahrplan'?

The "nickname" for the May 1982 Scotrail (note lowercase r) Timetable. Due to the need to cut train mileages across its system BR implemented a number of service cuts, on the Scottish Region it was decided to take the opportunity to revise the timetable so that while some routes had fewer through trains by offering regularised departure times at key hub stations much greater connectivity was achieved and thus actual journey opportunities were not reduced.

 

The timetable also created connections that did not previously exist, such as being able to catch the 0800 King's Cross-Edinburgh, which connected into the 1322 to Inverness and in turn at Inverness connected into the last Wick/Thurso train. Thus affording a faster London-Inverness journey opportunity (faster than catching the through Clansman and with the benefit of an earlier Inverness arrival) and the ability to travel from London to the Far North in one day. Many other connections were set up as well.

 

Here's the timetable cover (first use of the Scotrail name):

 

Here's the actual Taktfahrplan diagram, and yes it is ruddy complicated to look at but you can figure out journeys using it provided you know that many routes are not on hourly frequencies!

 

[hexagon789]

7 minutes ago, Legend said:

Refers to major re cast of the summer 1982 Scotrail timetable .  This might actually be the first time that Scotrail brand appeared (on the timetable).  It was a revised Basic Interval Timetable , with the same round the clock departures repeated every hour .  

Yes and yes. See above

 

(Though the clockface departures on some routes were mostly only at key hubs to regularise connections particularly on routes where the frequency was not hourly such as the Highland Main Line).

 

Modern Railways magazine discusses the timetable in some detail in the June 1982 issue if anyone is interested in learning more, copies likely available via eBay and the other usual sources.

Edited August 18, 2021 by hexagon789

[Waverley47708]

So 477 on a push pull service encounters the speed restriction sign in the photo,  80mph or 100mph?

 

Did HST only apply to Intercity 125 or were 477s treated as a High Speed Train.

[Flood]

A 47/7 hasn't the braking capability of an HST, hence the specific statement on the board. So 80 mph for the loco hauled train.

[hexagon789]

13 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

So 477 on a push pull service encounters the speed restriction sign in the photo,  80mph or 100mph?

 

Did HST only apply to Intercity 125 or were 477s treated as a High Speed Train.

Upthread someone mentioned 47/7s were added to the HST differentials, at least I think that's what they were saying.

 

Personally I'm not sure about that because as Flood says the braking capability even on a Mk3 set is much poorer than an HST for two reasons - one the 47 is very underbraked for its weight compared to an HST power car, secondly an HST has an electric brake system (E70) which applies the brakes from both ends of the train.

 

The differentials were certainly brought in specifically for the HSTs, being introduced originally on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen line in time for the May 1982 timetable change. They allowed a 15 min cut in the fastest HST timings Edinburgh-Aberdeen. At the same time 12 miles of the ECML east from Edinburgh were upgraded including the first 100+ sections on the Scottish part of the ECML. These improvements saved 2 mins Edinburgh-Newcastle.

 

There's a detailed article on both the Scottish HST differentials and the ECML improvement works in Modern Railways November 1981.

 

 

[Waverley47708]

3 hours ago, Flood said:

A 47/7 hasn't the braking capability of an HST, hence the specific statement on the board. So 80 mph for the loco hauled train.

 

I better have a word with the driver then, he was doing 92mph over one of the 8ft boards last night according to my favourite scale speed tool.

 

http://www.entwinesolutions.co.uk/scalespeed/

[hexagon789]

2 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

 

I better have a word with the driver then, he was doing 92mph over one of the 8ft boards last night according to my favourite scale speed tool.

 

http://www.entwinesolutions.co.uk/scalespeed/

Cue the flaming brake blocks when he rounds the corner, finds a single yellow and rams on the anchors...

 

...executing a perfect, if slightly bumpy 36-point stop, a couple thou' from the signal

Edited August 29, 2021 by hexagon789

[Bomag]

7 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Upthread someone mentioned 47/7s were added to the HST differentials, at least I think that's what they were saying.

 

Personally I'm not sure about that because as Flood says the braking capability even on a Mk3 set is much poorer than an HST for two reasons - one the 47 is very underbraked for its weight compared to an HST power car, secondly an HST has an electric brake system (E70) which applies the brakes from both ends of the train.

 

The differentials were certainly brought in specifically for the HSTs, being introduced originally on the Edinburgh-Aberdeen line in time for the May 1982 timetable change. They allowed a 15 min cut in the fastest HST timings Edinburgh-Aberdeen. At the same time 12 miles of the ECML east from Edinburgh were upgraded including the first 100+ sections on the Scottish part of the ECML. These improvements saved 2 mins Edinburgh-Newcastle.

 

There's a detailed article on both the Scottish HST differentials and the ECML improvement works in Modern Railways November 1981.

 

 

 

From a discussion just before they were sent to Crown Point I was told that the DBSO had a brake actuator and that when leading the brake would be applied at both ends. I left RCEA before they were put in service so can't confirm.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Bomag said:

 

From a discussion just before they were sent to Crown Point I was told that the DBSO had a brake actuator and that when leading the brake would be applied at both ends. I left RCEA before they were put in service so can't confirm.

That certainly wasn't the case when the DBSOs were first converted. They had a standard auto air brake controller. The only differences were some subtle changes to the control system because they weren't fitted with a compressor. No brake signals were carried over the TDM.

 

Whether they were modified after 1983, when I left Scotland, I can't say.

[hexagon789]

13 hours ago, Bomag said:

 

From a discussion just before they were sent to Crown Point I was told that the DBSO had a brake actuator and that when leading the brake would be applied at both ends. I left RCEA before they were put in service so can't confirm.

Personally I doubt this, 47s had not such equipment and the 86s definitely didn't - the instructions on Virgin Trains was to isolate the DW9 (I think that's the right term) valve for the electric brake unit when the push-pull sets were being hauled because 86s and 87s did not have the equipment needed to send electric brake signals back to the DVT/DBSO. 

 

 

[Bomag]

2 hours ago, hexagon789 said:

Personally I doubt this, 47s had not such equipment and the 86s definitely didn't - the instructions on Virgin Trains was to isolate the DW9 (I think that's the right term) valve for the electric brake unit when the push-pull sets were being hauled because 86s and 87s did not have the equipment needed to send electric brake signals back to the DVT/DBSO. 

 

 

 

I did say when the DBSO was leading. The discussion I had was with one of our signalling engineers and a p/w maintenance wonk (Colchester I think) looking at if there was any impact on maintenance and fixing the damage being done by the 86/2 (trying to straighten the curves).  The problems was that the spec for the refurbished DBSOs was still not set at that point. As described to me it was supposed to be a legacy issue of Polmont to speed up brake performance when pushing. 

[Flood]

Don't forget that the DBSOs were fitted with FDM in Scotland and only got TDM when they were refurbished to go to Anglia. So any brake modifications may well have occured at the same time.

[St Enodoc]

1 hour ago, Flood said:

Don't forget that the DBSOs were fitted with FDM in Scotland and only got TDM when they were refurbished to go to Anglia. So any brake modifications may well have occured at the same time.

Sorry, that's not correct. The original control system was TDM.

[Flood]

8 hours ago, St Enodoc said:

Sorry, that's not correct. The original control system was TDM.

It is correct. They were originally fitted with Frequency Division Multiplex and if you want to have an in-depth discussion with Glenn Daniel who worked on the 47/7s at Haymarket until 1987 and then at Craigentinny until 1991 I'm sure he can give you the full details.

 

From page 2 of this same thread:

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Flood

[Bomag]

4 hours ago, Flood said:

It is correct. They were originally fitted with Frequency Division Multiplex and if you want to have an in-depth discussion with Glenn Daniel who worked on the 47/7s at Haymarket until 1987 and then at Craigentinny until 1991 I'm sure he can give you the full details.

 

From page 2 of this same thread:

 

 

This is consistent with what I was told. FDM provided less bandwidth than what was adopted for TDM due to the need to ensure signals were in-sync. Not my area but it made sense at the time. Apparently having the loco pushing reduced peak track loads; particularly when coupled with buckeyes (Class 90&91).

[hexagon789]

On 30/08/2021 at 13:23, Bomag said:

 

I did say when the DBSO was leading. The discussion I had was with one of our signalling engineers and a p/w maintenance wonk (Colchester I think) looking at if there was any impact on maintenance and fixing the damage being done by the 86/2 (trying to straighten the curves).  The problems was that the spec for the refurbished DBSOs was still not set at that point. As described to me it was supposed to be a legacy issue of Polmont to speed up brake performance when pushing. 

Sorry I wasn't very specific as regards the driving trailers themselves which is what we were talking about, my fault going off on a tangent while trying to sort of compare the situations.

 

Anyway, essentially what I was trying to say was that the Mk3 (and for that matter Mk4) DVTs have a DW3 electric brake unit, Mk2F DBSOs do not. Even in Anglia days the standard auto air brake controller is still in place.

 

I should add the push-pull working manual specifically refers to the DW3 as Mk3/Mk4 only.

Edited August 31, 2021 by hexagon789

[Waverley47708]

On 08/05/2018 at 13:39, tractor_37260 said:

I'm looking for a close up photo of preferably a Blue backed loco data panel as fitted to some 47/7's in Exec livery, or the information shown in one.

 

Is there a resource anywhere with information on loco data panels for different loco classes etc ? 

 

TIA

 

Ken

 

Three years later, this just in!

 

 

[St Enodoc]

On 31/08/2021 at 18:09, Flood said:

It is correct. They were originally fitted with Frequency Division Multiplex and if you want to have an in-depth discussion with Glenn Daniel who worked on the 47/7s at Haymarket until 1987 and then at Craigentinny until 1991 I'm sure he can give you the full details.

 

From page 2 of this same thread:

 

OK, here we go.

 

I suspect that some confusion has arisen between Frequency Division Multiplexing (FDM) and Frequency Modulation (FM).

 

The Brush two-wire system worked like this (from the DBSO's perspective - essentially the loco performed the same actions in reverse):

 

There were 32 channels, or inputs, to the two-wire control system. Each input represented either the On or Off condition of a train function, such as:

 

1 - Engine Start

7 - Direction - Forward from DBSO

11 - Engine Speed 2

18 - Fire Alarm Test

 

etc.

 

Channels 1 to 20 were available for these functions. The rest formed part of the control system's internal validation processes plus three spares.

 

Each input, at 24V dc from the DBSO electrical system, went into the Input Module, where they were converted by relays to low voltage and low current signals. In turn these signals went into the Transmit Module, where they were converted into a series of pulses. Each pulse was 640 microseconds long, either 480 microseconds mark/160 microseconds space (for On) or the converse (for Off). The creation of this series of pulses, or the pulse train, is the TDM part of the system.

 

Once the pulse trains were confirmed correct by the parity checking system, which used 8 of the 32 pulses plus a Unit Identification Pulse, they went into the Transmit Module.

 

The Transmit Module converted the pulse train to a modulated 155kHz FM signal, with the modulated signal varying from 154 to 156 kHz. This FM wave, with an amplitude of 20V, went into the RCH lighting control cables along the train (which it shared with the lighting control, the Driver/Guard intercom and the Public Address systems) to the loco, where the FM Module, Control Module, Receive Module and Output Module converted the signal to 110v DC On or Off via a bank of Remote Control Relays that interfaced with the loco auxiliary power system.

 

I hope that clarifies matters.

 

The pages below are a selection from my original copy of the ScR CM&EE Edinburgh/Glasgow Push Pull Service Training Manual, written by my late colleague and friend Ray Murison, who was mentioned (and pictured) earlier in this topic. Ray and I spent several intensive but enjoyable weeks in Derby during Spring/Summer 1979 participating in the testing and commissioning of Sc9701, 47704 and the first set of Mk 3 coaches. Those in the know will recognise Ray's unmistakable script in the annotations to the hand-drawn sketches.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by St Enodoc
Images restored as requested by @Falkirk_Craig