ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation

[hexagon789]

I am currently in the process of researching the Mk3 and Mk2 push-pull sets as used by BR ScotRail in the 1980s for a layout idea based somewhere on the Stirling-Perth section of the Scottish Central railway. While I have been able to find the formations for the push-pull sets, I have been unable to answer some questions about the actual, physical operation of the push-pull sets. I apologise if firstly this topic is under the wrong category, there are quite a few and prototype questions seemed the best choice to me, secondly sorry if any of the following questions have been answered before, if they have been if you could possibly direct me to the relevant thread that would be great. If anyone can answer even just one of my questions I will be very grateful.

 

1. I know that the Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull rakes contained a Mk2d TSO(T) within their formation, however I believe that two out and back services from Glasgow to Aberdeen used the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets, therefore did these two diagrams have no catering or was a simple at-seat trolley provided?

 

2. Does anyone know what the calling points of the push-pull sets on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs were? I have the 1980-81 Scottish Region timetable and it gives all the Glasgow-Aberdeen as calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen. These generally took 2hrs 55mins to Aberdeen, however while I don't have any timetables for 1985-90 I found a diagram of the push-pull runs from 1986-90 and these give a journey time of 2hrs 48mins, so was the 7 min saving down to fewer calling points, increased speed limits or some other reason?

 

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

 

4. Did the Mk2z coaches retained by the Scottish Region from the Class 27 push-pull sets retain their disc-braked B4 bogies or did they all lose them to the initial batch of Mk2f DBSO conversions?

 

5. Were the tread braked Mk2f DBSOs allowed in Mk3 push-pull rakes or were the disc-braked ones mandated?

 

6. How were the power controllers in the DBSOs set up? I believe I read somewhere (wish I could remember where!) that they were fitted with standard EMU-style power controllers, this would suggest 4 power notches. However, I thought the Class 47s had 8 notch power controllers so did this mean that if driving from the DBSO the driver could only select notches 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the Shove Duff?

 

7. Which other services/formations would one have seen between Stirling and Perth (and stations in between) from about 1985-1989? I think that the Inverness trains were usually formed of Mk2c stock, but what operated services such as Dunblane, Dundee and Arbroath (?) stoppers? Were these all DMU operated or loco-hauled or a mix of the two?

 

8. Was all/most of the signalling between Stirling and Perth semaphore signalling or were there some colour lights then as well?

 

Any information greatly would be received, if you can answer any of my rather long-winded questions above I would just like to say thank you in advance. Oh, and apologies if I've worded any of my questions rather poorly as well!

Edited August 18, 2021 by hexagon789

[Scottish Modeller]

Hi there,

 

Did you do a search on Forum before you posted this?

 

I ask as most of what you are covering has already been addressed elsewhere on here.

 

No point in repeating what is already available!

 

Search and you shall find....

 

Thanks

[hexagon789]

Yes I did, I actually got most of the information about the formations of the push-pull sets from this site. After searching through Google, railforums.co.uk, this site and others I have yet to find answers to any of my questions above, though.

[keefer]

3. not entirely sure, but where the HST was allowed a greater speed, there was usually a differential speed limit - i.e. one higher speed for the HSTs, another speed for all other stock

4. i.m sure they retained their disc brakes and WSP eqpt, many coaches could be indentified by them in later years

5. as far as i know all DBSOs were used indentically, don't quote me though!

6. IICR the controller sent basic signals to the eqpt to control the loco - this wasn't TDM by any stretch, the coded pulse signal gave something like on/power up/power down/off.  maybe the controller was set up to 'notch ' up/down

 

 

here are some links to the push-pull topics (google search): https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=rmweb+ScR+class+47+push-pull&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-GB:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&gfe_rd=cr&ei=_NbqV8XdB-3W8gfLg5jQCg

[Derekstuart]

Hexagon789

 

If you follow this link there are some pictures of the original DBSO cab interior (below the PCV cabs).

 

http://www.dawlishtrains.com/cabs---uk---cab-cars.html

 

It does say somewhere that the desk control equipment was supplied by Brush- hence the uncanny resemblance of a Brush 4/cl 47 driving desk. Whether these were specially made or just spares from the 47 build I don't know.

 

Keefer

 

It would have to be TDM or FDM. You can't have multiple channels running down one loop in any other way. Though I think you are right that it was not as sophisticated as the later WCLM and ECML versions. (disclaimer: That's my recollection from reading articles, not from first hand knowledge).

[mjkerr]

My N Gauge layout is based on Glasgow Queen Street between 1986 and 1992, but the overall operations will be relevant
 

1. I know that the Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull rakes contained a Mk2d TSO(T) within their formation, however I believe that two out and back services from Glasgow to Aberdeen used the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets, therefore did these two diagrams have no catering or was a simple at-seat trolley provided?

Prior to AC closing, all the Aberdeen sets used Mark 2 coaches, no Mark 3 coaches were used 
When AC closed it became a general pool based at EC and two additional Edinburgh - Aberdeen services were added, in preparation for sprinterisation and the end of the loco hauled Edinburgh - Dundee services 
Yes, when a Mark 3 set was used the trolley was loaded into the DBSO 
Ironically, the TSO(T) became redundant as the catering staff were instructed to load into the DBSO from 1984 onwards 
 

2. Does anyone know what the calling points of the push-pull sets on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs were? I have the 1980-81 Scottish Region timetable and it gives all the Glasgow-Aberdeen as calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen. These generally took 2hrs 55mins to Aberdeen, however while I don't have any timetables for 1985-90 I found a diagram of the push-pull runs from 1986-90 and these give a journey time of 2hrs 48mins, so was the 7 min saving down to fewer calling points, increased speed limits or some other reason?

I have the 1986 timetable 
Glasgow - Aberdeen was typically 2 hours 53 minutes, unless calling at Portlethen 
You would need to compare like to like timings to see why time saving occured 

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

All the coaches were rated at 100mph 
All of the Class 47/7 were initially 95mph 
However, 47701 to 47712 were modified and then permitted to operate at 100mph, and had a plate on the cab door to signify this (and this is included on some of my models) 
The basic maintenance service interval was also reduced 
This later included 47713 to 47717 

The line speed were raised on certain sections, signified by HST boards, and Class 47/7 were also added to this 
 

4. Did the Mk2z coaches retained by the Scottish Region from the Class 27 push-pull sets retain their disc-braked B4 bogies or did they all lose them to the initial batch of Mk2f DBSO conversions?

Yes, they remained modified 
Equally, some of the DBSO were modified with disc brakes 

5. Were the tread braked Mk2f DBSOs allowed in Mk3 push-pull rakes or were the disc-braked ones mandated?

There was no difference, once AC closed, it became a general pool 
Preference was made to match up disc fitted with Mark 3 coaches, but from 1988 onwards the practice ended 
 

6. How were the power controllers in the DBSOs set up? I believe I read somewhere (wish I could remember where!) that they were fitted with standard EMU-style power controllers, this would suggest 4 power notches. However, I thought the Class 47s had 8 notch power controllers so did this mean that if driving from the DBSO the driver could only select notches 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the Shove Duff?

I believe this is correct, as there was a "field" light in the cab which was a signal from the loco that it had reached the field change and the driver could then notch up 
The brake was just connected to the release valve in the DBSO, the loco would then detect the air loss and apply the loco brake 
The disadvantage was this was quite agressive and made light braking almost impossible 

7. Which other services/formations would one have seen between Stirling and Perth (and stations in between) from about 1985-1989? I think that the Inverness trains were usually formed of Mk2c stock, but what operated services such as Dunblane, Dundee and Arbroath (?) stoppers? Were these all DMU operated or loco-hauled or a mix of the two?

Aberdeen - Glasgow 
Inverness - Glasgow / Edinburgh 
Inverness - Edinburgh - Kings Cross 
Inverness - Motherwell - Euston / Inverness - Edinburgh - Euston 
Inverness - Euston sleeper 
Perth - Euston sleeper 
Stirling - Glasgow DMU 
Dunblane - Edinburgh DMU 
Inverness - Glasgow - Bristol (1S59 and 1V84) 

[Flood]

I am currently in the process of researching the Mk3 and Mk2 push-pull sets as used by BR ScotRail in the 1980s for a layout idea based somewhere on the Stirling-Perth section of the Scottish Central railway. While I have been able to find the formations for the push-pull sets, I have been unable to answer some questions about the actual, physical operation of the push-pull sets. I apologise if firstly this topic is under the wrong category, there are quite a few and prototype questions seemed the best choice to me, secondly sorry if any of the following questions have been answered before, if they have been if you could possibly direct me to the relevant thread that would be great. If anyone can answer even just one of my questions I will be very grateful.

 

1. I know that the Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull rakes contained a Mk2d TSO(T) within their formation, however I believe that two out and back services from Glasgow to Aberdeen used the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets, therefore did these two diagrams have no catering or was a simple at-seat trolley provided? Trolley service

 

2. Does anyone know what the calling points of the push-pull sets on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs were? I have the 1980-81 Scottish Region timetable and it gives all the Glasgow-Aberdeen as calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen. These generally took 2hrs 55mins to Aberdeen, however while I don't have any timetables for 1985-90 I found a diagram of the push-pull runs from 1986-90 and these give a journey time of 2hrs 48mins, so was the 7 min saving down to fewer calling points, increased speed limits or some other reason?

Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven, Portleven and Aberdeen. Probably increased line speeds.

 

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

100mph between Whitemoss Crossing and Forteviot, 100mph between Balmossie Halt and 2 miles short of Arbroath. Otherwise between 75 and 90 inclusive, 90 between Perth and Dundee (March 1986 Sectional Appendix)..

 

4. Did the Mk2z coaches retained by the Scottish Region from the Class 27 push-pull sets retain their disc-braked B4 bogies or did they all lose them to the initial batch of Mk2f DBSO conversions?

Yes, retained them.

 

5. Were the tread braked Mk2f DBSOs allowed in Mk3 push-pull rakes or were the disc-braked ones mandated? Any DBSOs allowed with any stock.

 

6. How were the power controllers in the DBSOs set up? I believe I read somewhere (wish I could remember where!) that they were fitted with standard EMU-style power controllers, this would suggest 4 power notches. However, I thought the Class 47s had 8 notch power controllers so did this mean that if driving from the DBSO the driver could only select notches 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the Shove Duff? I can ask but it won't be until the weekend.

 

7. Which other services/formations would one have seen between Stirling and Perth (and stations in between) from about 1985-1989? I think that the Inverness trains were usually formed of Mk2c stock, but what operated services such as Dunblane, Dundee and Arbroath (?) stoppers? Were these all DMU operated or loco-hauled or a mix of the two?

Solid DMUs, Class 101s, Class 107s, Class 108s from 1987, a few 101/108 hybrids with 110 centre cars.

Only one loco hauled Glasgow to Arbroath service, 15.55 Glasgow QS - Arbroath (Class 47, Mk2 BSO, 3 x Mk1 SK in 1988)

Edit : see post above for Sleepers etc.

 

8. Was all/most of the signalling between Stirling and Perth semaphore signalling or were there some colour lights then as well? Don't know.

 

Any information greatly would be received, if you can answer any of my rather long-winded questions above I would just like to say thank you in advance. Oh, and apologies if I've worded any of my questions rather poorly as well! 

Edited September 27, 2016 by Flood

[Butler Henderson]

Push pull sets did some Dunblane workings

1984-1985 the 0836 Edinburgh-Dunblane (had 47711 on such a working)

1985-1986 the 0709SX Dunblane-Edinburgh

 

A number of the Aberdeen workings continued to Dyce, with shorts being push pull worked as well terminating at Stirling or starting at Perth for example. Indeed many trains which looking at the timetable which appeared to be DMUs could quite easilly it seemed be a push pull set.

Edited September 27, 2016 by Butler Henderson

[Bomag]

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

 

Any information greatly would be received, if you can answer any of my rather long-winded questions above I would just like to say thank you in advance. Oh, and apologies if I've worded any of my questions rather poorly as well! 

 

Line speed is derived from the top speed of the stock, the breaking performance relative to the signal spacing and the track geometry.

 

The HST differential on existing track at the time was mostly due to the greater speed of application of the brakes as well as the increased rate of deceleration; also relevant is the lower track forces due to the better suspension.

 

When the 158s came in with a 90mph top speed, better acceleration and the ability to disappear to the signalling systems, several regions had programs to increase the line speed from 75mph to 90mph for sprinter stock. I spent quite a bit of 89/90 doing work on the Norwich to Peterborough line - the work was two fold, replacing any jointed track with CWR (to increase the available cant deficiency from 90mm to 110mm) and lengthening the transitions so the extra 20mm of CD (or increase in cant for some existing CWR sections) was generated over a longer distance (to stop the tea/coffee from sliding off the tables). RCE Scotland definitely did some work on this is they asked, via Hudson House, for a trick one on my colleagues devised to make it easier to apply to reverse curves (with reverse cures on double track having trains going in one direction tends to move the contravention point downstream).

 

I took it from the discussion that RCE Scotland may have done something similar to increase line speed for Mk3 stock but that, unsportingley, the 47/7s tended to up the reverse curves in one direction a lot faster than expected. We took an interest as we knew that we were getting the DBSOs for the London line - unfortunately we did not get the Mk3s but the Mk2fs displace from the WCML. If you thought 47/7 were bad on track loads it was nothing compared to 86/2s

[mjkerr]

I have the 1986 timetable 

Glasgow - Aberdeen was typically 2 hours 53 minutes, unless calling at Portlethen 

You would need to compare like to like timings to see why time saving occured

I have been looking at the stock in use and difference between 1982 and 1986

 

In 1982 the Aberdeen - Glasgow was timed for Class 47/4 (95mph)

In 1986 the Aberdeen - Glasgow was timed for Class 47/7 HST (100mph)

 

The shorter journey time comes between

Aberdeen - Dundee and Perth - Glasgow, where the 47/7 can benefit from the higher HST speed limits

[Barry O]

Suggest you PM St Enodoc on here as he was senior management at craigentinnie about the time you are talking about.

 

Baz

[hexagon789]

Thanks to all of you for the very detailed and helpful replies. ☺ Hopefully, after buying a few more bits and bobs, I'll be able to begin construction of my layout.

[dp123]

Re: the 47s power controller, I believe they only have two notches to speak of - on, 1/4 and from there notchless (like a 37) up to full. This is from memory from the book "Class 47: 50 years of locomotive history". The /7s may have been modified differently, but don't recall seeing anything to that effect. The DBSO had a four position EMU controller, how the MU system interpreted this as regards the loco powering I'm not sure.

[keefer]

I remember an article, possibly in Model Railway Constructor or similar, about how to make a DBSO using an Airfix Mk2d BSO. there was also a description of how the control system worked.

Must've been about 1984/5?

[hexagon789]

Again, thanks for the replies. I had thought the Class 47's power controllers were set up with just an initial notch and a continuous range as per the Class 20s and 37s, but I was told by someone that they had eight notch controllers. I've just received a copy of the Spring 1986 Platform 5 coaching stock book and while this has helped with some issues with coaching stock it has raised a few more questions that someone might be able to answer.

 

1. The book lists 5 Mk2fs as being at Craigentinny, were any of these used in the push-pull sets? I had though Craigentinny had an allocation of 5 Mk2z TSOs, 12 Mk2d TSOs, 7 Mk2d TSO(T), 4 Mk2e FO, 1 Mk2f FO and 2 Mk2a FK for use in the Mk2 push-pull sets, with all bar the two Mk2a FKs and one of the TSO(T)s in ScotRail livery. If this is correct then which of the Mk2fs was painted into ScotRail livery, the book lists all five as being in blue/grey.

2. The book lists one Mk2z FK but no Mk2a FKs at Cragentinny in Spring '86 so did the Mk2a FKs come from elsewhere and if so when did they arrive at Craigentinny for use in the push-pull and what were their numbers.

3. The book lists the Mk3a COs as having 23 First and 38 Second Class seats, however the BR diagram for the interior layouts gives a capacity of 24 First, 37 Second - therefore which is correct?

 

I know these are pretty trivial questions, particularly the last one but I'd still be grateful if anyone could answer them. It'll bother me no end if I know I've got one too many First Class seats in my COs and one two few Second Class ones!

[hexagon789]

Should also say thanks if anyone can answer any of these questions, regards Ben.

[mjkerr]

1. The book lists 5 Mk2fs as being at Craigentinny, were any of these used in the push-pull sets? I had though Craigentinny had an allocation of 5 Mk2z TSOs, 12 Mk2d TSOs, 7 Mk2d TSO(T), 4 Mk2e FO, 1 Mk2f FO and 2 Mk2a FK for use in the Mk2 push-pull sets, with all bar the two Mk2a FKs and one of the TSO(T)s in ScotRail livery. If this is correct then which of the Mk2fs was painted into ScotRail livery, the book lists all five as being in blue/grey.

Mark 2F coaches - 

1985 to 1988 : 

3284 

 

1986 : 

3295 

3312 

3337

3360 

9536 (which was then converted to 9714) 

 

1990 : 

3290 

 

These were only used in Push-pull (Express) formations 

3284 was the only Mark 2F coach painted into ScotRail livery 

 

 

3. The book lists the Mk3a COs as having 23 First and 38 Second Class seats, however the BR diagram for the interior layouts gives a capacity of 24 First, 37 Second - therefore which is correct?

Effectively both are correct 

One of the First Class seats was removable, so there were usually 23 present, but sometimes there could be 24 

There were only 37 Standard seats, as one had to be removed next to the composite door

Edited September 29, 2016 by mjkerr

[Waverley47708]

Fail.

 

Well this is a bit embarrassing, I saw the title and thought I will hopefully be able to help, seeing there were 8 questions I confidently predicted I'd get 6 or even 7 of them. 

 

Then I read them and my score was a dismal 0.

 

if I am generous I may give myself 1/2 a mark for being able (but only) with the help of my trusty 1985 and 1986 timetables to answer to the first part re calling points in question 2.

 

Good job Flood and mjkerr are around to keep us right.

 

In my defence the because of my enthusiasm for the Waverley and having being brought up in the Kingdom of Fife, Queen Street and the stretch between Queen Street and Perth were not on my radar.  Having moved to Perthshire I am a bit more familiar than I was even if it relies on old video and photos etc. 

 

I am sure the below video of Perth to Stirling will be of interest to you from jbg06003

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9JiI6zh58

 

His channel

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/jbg06003?feature=mhee

[Flood]

Looks like one question has not been answered yet:

 

When the ScotRail livery was first applied to the Mk2z stock they ran as an additional set of a Mk2z FK and the Mk2z TSOs along with a DBSO, this was during 1985. From 1985 to 1986 only the Glasgow - Aberdeen and Glasgow - Edinburgh services were push-pull, the Edinburgh - Aberdeen services were still mainly covered by HSTs with only the 08.55 and 16.55 from Edinburgh being covered by loco hauled sets.

 

From May 1986 three sets of push-pull stock were formed 2 x Mk2D TSO, Mk2D TSOT, FO, DBSO for the Glasgow services (5 coaches) and one set was formed Mk2z TSO, 2 x Mk2D TSO, Mk2D TSOT, FO, DBSO for the Edinburgh services (6 coaches). The remaining Mk2z stock was used as a spare set although for solely the winter of 1987-88 the diagrams on the Glasgow - Edinburgh route were changed so that the set which was used on the 07.10 Perth - Edinburgh and 17.13 Edinburgh - Dundee had an out and back journey to Glasgow.

 

From October 1987 to May 1989 the Edinburgh set and a Glasgow set swapped destinations to work to both cities, both of these sets became 6 car sets with the extra Mk2z TSO.

 

FK 13461 was brought in from Old Oak Common in September 1986, I'm assuming as cover for the Mk2E FO stock, with FK 13456 arriving from Heaton in May 1987. The sole ScotRail Mk2z FK, 13424, was withdrawn on 30/7/87. 13456 and 13461 never received ScotRail livery.

 

 

In my defence, Waverley, I have never lived in Scotland and I have never even been to Aberdeen! I do spend a lot of time trawling through books and the internet though (far too much probably as Glenn would doubtlessly agree).

[Flood]

There is one additional point which may be of help.

 

If you ever buy the 1988 Platform 5 Combined Volume (and possibly the 1988 Platform 5 Coaching Stock Pocket book as well) all of the Craigentinny Mk2D TSO stock is marked as being in ScotRail whether it is allocated to Provincial (PXXX) or Inter City East Coast (IECX). This is incorrect.

 

The Provincial stock was in ScotRail: 5623, 5653, 5659, 5662, 5663, 5671, 5673, 5694, 5711, 5716, 5726 and 5740

 

The East Coast stock were in either blue and grey: 5670, 5695 and 5709 or InterCity executive: 5678, 5690 and 5734. Mk2D TSOTs 6608 (B/G) and 6618 (IC) and Mk2D FKs 13569 and 13588 (both IC) were also allocated to Craigentinny with Inter City East Coast.

 

The Craigentinny Inter City East Coast stock used on the 10.30 Edinburgh - Aberdeen (14.45 return): Loco, BG, 2 x TSO, BSO, TSOT, FK.

Edited October 28, 2021 by Flood
Amendment to TSOT liveries. 1988 Platform 5 had the liveries the wrong way round.

[hexagon789]

Thank you, for the link to the video Waverley, I think I spotted 3 Mk2 push-pull sets in it, all different and several other loco-hauled formations, very enjoyable watching! Thanks, Flood for the additional information and best wishes for Mickleover.  Tomorrow isn't it? I'm afraid I have yet another question - I really am getting bad for this! There were 7 MK2d TSO(T) dedicated to the Mk2 push-pull sets, of these 6 were painted in ScotRail livery and one (no. 6607) retained blue/grey, does any one have/know the numbers of the six that were painted into ScotRail livery as I can only find the numbers of 5, thanks.

Edited September 30, 2016 by hexagon789

[Flood]

Thank you, for the link to the video Waverley, I think I spotted 3 Mk2 push-pull sets in it, all different and several other loco-hauled formations, very enjoyable watching! Thanks, Flood for the additional information and best wishes for Mickleover.  Tomorrow isn't it? I'm afraid I have yet another question - I really am getting bad for this! There were 7 MK2d TSO(T) dedicated to the Mk2 push-pull sets, of these 6 were painted in ScotRail livery and one (no. 6607) retained blue/grey, does any one have/know the numbers of the six that were painted into ScotRail livery as I can only find the numbers of 5, thanks.

6601, 6604, 6605, 6613, 6614 and 6619. Of these 6604 and 6614 had red over the top of the end doors (as did 6607 in blue and grey) whereas 6601, 6605 and 6619 had the ScotRail light grey stripe on the top of the doors. I have never seen a photo of 6613 so I don't know what this coach was like.

 

Yes, Mickleover Show is tomorrow and Sunday. I'm just off to Glenn's to pack up the layout now.

[hexagon789]

Thanks for the information, hope tomorrow goes well for both of you. ☺

[Dunedin]

I am currently in the process of researching the Mk3 and Mk2 push-pull sets as used by BR ScotRail in the 1980s for a layout idea based somewhere on the Stirling-Perth section of the Scottish Central railway. While I have been able to find the formations for the push-pull sets, I have been unable to answer some questions about the actual, physical operation of the push-pull sets. I apologise if firstly this topic is under the wrong category, there are quite a few and prototype questions seemed the best choice to me, secondly sorry if any of the following questions have been answered before, if they have been if you could possibly direct me to the relevant thread that would be great. If anyone can answer even just one of my questions I will be very grateful.

 

1. I know that the Aberdeen Mk2 push-pull rakes contained a Mk2d TSO(T) within their formation, however I believe that two out and back services from Glasgow to Aberdeen used the Edinburgh-Glasgow Mk3 push-pull sets, therefore did these two diagrams have no catering or was a simple at-seat trolley provided?

 

2. Does anyone know what the calling points of the push-pull sets on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs were? I have the 1980-81 Scottish Region timetable and it gives all the Glasgow-Aberdeen as calling at Stirling, Perth, Dundee, Arbroath, Montrose, Stonehaven and Aberdeen. These generally took 2hrs 55mins to Aberdeen, however while I don't have any timetables for 1985-90 I found a diagram of the push-pull runs from 1986-90 and these give a journey time of 2hrs 48mins, so was the 7 min saving down to fewer calling points, increased speed limits or some other reason?

 

3. I think I'm correct in saying that the E-G Mk3 push-pull sets ran at 100mph on E-G services, however did either the Mk2 or Mk3 push-pull sets run at that speed when on Glasgow-Aberdeen runs? I believe that for most of the 60s and part/all of the 70s the speed limit ceiling on the Scottish Region was 75mph (excepting the ECML, WCML and E-G from 1972). According to the accident report for the Invergowrie Rail Crash the linespeed between Perth and Dundee was 75mph, it's currently 90, so when did the linespeeds get raised on the other Scottish Internal routes? Was it when the HSTs were introduced because of their superior braking and if so did the limits also increase for loco-hauled trains such as the Mk2 push-pull sets?

 

4. Did the Mk2z coaches retained by the Scottish Region from the Class 27 push-pull sets retain their disc-braked B4 bogies or did they all lose them to the initial batch of Mk2f DBSO conversions?

 

5. Were the tread braked Mk2f DBSOs allowed in Mk3 push-pull rakes or were the disc-braked ones mandated?

 

6. How were the power controllers in the DBSOs set up? I believe I read somewhere (wish I could remember where!) that they were fitted with standard EMU-style power controllers, this would suggest 4 power notches. However, I thought the Class 47s had 8 notch power controllers so did this mean that if driving from the DBSO the driver could only select notches 2, 4, 6 and 8 on the Shove Duff?

 

7. Which other services/formations would one have seen between Stirling and Perth (and stations in between) from about 1985-1989? I think that the Inverness trains were usually formed of Mk2c stock, but what operated services such as Dunblane, Dundee and Arbroath (?) stoppers? Were these all DMU operated or loco-hauled or a mix of the two?

 

8. Was all/most of the signalling between Stirling and Perth semaphore signalling or were there some colour lights then as well?

 

Any information greatly would be received, if you can answer any of my rather long-winded questions above I would just like to say thank you in advance. Oh, and apologies if I've worded any of my questions rather poorly as well! 

 

 

Q5: Originally the push-pulls worked the Edinburgh - Glasgow (E&G) route and because of the frequent and heavy braking, it was decided to use disc-braked coaches. The original Mark 2 sets were converted for this reason. Later, one of the reasons for using Mark 3 coaches was because they came with disc brakes as standard, so no conversion costs. All the original DBSOs were converted to disc braking for the same reason, but the later DBSOs, which were converted to the Aberdeen services retained their tread brakes. 9714 was the only exception; this was intended as the replacement vehicle for 9706 which was written off in the Polmont disaster in 1984. In the end, it was too difficult to manage two pools of DBSOs, so any DBSO finished up getting attached to any set. Wherever possible, the Mark 3s were used on the E&G route, but occasionally when Mark 3 availability was low, a Mark 2 Provincial vehicle (or sometimes even more, up to a full set) were used as cover. There was also the business spec from Provincial Services which specified the best stock for the premiere route(s).

 

The reason for preferring disc brakes is mainly because brake pads last longer than brake shoes, so disc-braked stock on routes with heavy and frequent braking cost less to maintain and use less man-hours to do so.

 

As an aside, another by-product of the heavy braking was the exam regime on the 47/7s: On normal locos, they would be "blocked" when they needed it - i.e. they would have the brake blocks changed as and when they were identified as wearing thin. That might have occurred during an exam, or at a fuel point visit. On the 47/7s, the regime was, that if they were due an A Exam, they would be blocked, or if they needed blocking, they would get an A exam. Their daily diagram mileages on the E&Gs were similar to HSTs, so they were being really hammered. 100MPH running didn't help in that respect either, compared with 95MPH for normal 47s.

 

Q6:I always remember it as 5, 13, 30 and 50! Diesel locos such as the Sulzers and English Electrics had all-speed governors on the engines, so there were no speed notches as such on the controllers. The power controller operated a regulating air valve, which fed air to a cylinder in the governor. This then operated the fuel racks on the engine, via a set of complicated levers and linkages. An oil vane motor in the governor also controlled a potential divider on earlier locos or a linear voltage differentiating transducer (LVDT) on those converted to ETH, to vary the excitation current in the main generator. This enabled the output from the generator to match the load the engine was capable of delivering for the regulating air being fed from the power controller. The Brush/Sulzer system was very well designed and it was almost impossible to overload the engine.

 

Back to the 5, 13, 30 & 50. This relates to the regulating air pressures. When the power controller was moved to the "ON" position, this fed about 5psi of air pressure to the governor. It didn't increase the engine speed, but enabled the engine to supply enough torque to apply a small amount of tractive effort at idle speed. With the controller at 1/4, the regulating air was about 13psi and the engine would run faster and be able to deliver a greater load. The oil vane motor would increase the output from the potential divider/LVDT and the excitation current would be increased and the main generator would produce correspondingly more voltage and current for the traction motors. As a result, tractive effort was increased. 30psi was somewhere between 1/2 and 3/4 and 50 psi was full power.

 

When the loco was being driven from the cab, the regulating air pressure was infinitely variable from 5 - 50psi, but from the DBSO, that couldn't be achieved, without running a regulating air pipe down the train to the loco. A regulating air pipe was a standard feature of all Blue-Star multiple working locos - you can see these on the buffer beams of Classes 20, 25, 26, 27, 31, 37 etc that used Blue Star multiple working, together with the 27 way electrical control jumpers. The regulating air pipe is the one painted white. The original Class 27 push pulls used this feature and the converted Mark 2s were fitted with regulating air pipes and the 27 way jumpers. For the two-wire control push-pulls, standard stock was to be used, so no expensive conversions, apart from the DBSOs. These had 4-position EMU type power controllers so another solution had to be found.

 

The solution was quite clever: The four power notches were translated by the two-wire control equipment into 4 power demand channels. When those signals popped out at the other end, they energised four power notch relays in the two-wire control cabinet on the loco. These, in turn energised four separate electro-pneumatic valves that fed air into the regulating air system. Notch 1 gave 5psi, 2 gave 13psi, 3 gave 30psi and 4 gave 50psi.

 

This made the train less easy to drive in propelling mode because the control wasn't as fine, but the drivers soon got used to it and actually preferred driving from the DBSO because it was quieter and gave a better ride.

 

Hopefully this give a little more insight into how the system worked. It (and the Class 20s at Haymarket) helped to pay for the deposit on my first house!

[mjkerr]

The East Coast stock were in either blue and grey: 5670, 5695 and 5709 or InterCity executive: 5678, 5690 and 5734. Mk2D TSOTs 6608 (IC) and 6618 (B/G) and Mk2D FKs 13569 and 13588 (both IC) were also allocated to Craigentinny with Inter City East Coast.

 

The Craigentinny Inter City East Coast stock used on the 10.30 Edinburgh - Aberdeen (14.45 return): Loco, BG, 2 x TSO, BSO, TSOT, FK.

I don't appear to have included the Mark 2D FK in my spreadsheet, even though I know about them 

I am wondering if I did not include them due to the requirement to revinyl 

 

I remember seeing them a few times on push-pull sets, but they were rare 

From memory I managed to finally see them all, then they were withdrawn (in preference to FO) 

 

When I moved to Aberdeen, from May 1989 the Edinburgh - Aberdeen diagram was almost always the Mark 2Z rake, but I cannot remember what was used for First Class so I would assume almost always the Mark 2D FO