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ScotRail operations 1980s-privitisation


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On 05/02/2019 at 14:00, ChrisH-UK said:

In answer to 3, the 47/7 started being redeployed as soon as they started running down the service, I think dates for certain locos have been given in threads, my recollection is that most were gone by July 1990.

 

After the summer timetables ended at the beginning of September, with the exception of rescues and the Fife Circle, I do not recall there being any booked loco-hauled workings until the summer of 1991, which was mainly the Inverness-Aberdeen and also the Kyle Line as you suggested. I believe there were others but I don't remember the specifics.

I remember 92 and 93 as being a mini renaissance in Scotland with the addition of loco-hauled services from Inverness and Aberdeen to Edinburgh and on the West Highland line.

 

Details of the 1991 services were printed in an issue of RAIL, I'll see if I can dig it out but the chances are someone else will have the details before me, they probably exist for subsequent years too, I just remember the 'fanfare' that accompanied the 1991 services was bigger and have a clear image of what I'm looking for.

 

Chris H

 

 

Thank you, so no 47/7s by 1991 then. If it isn't too much trouble, I'd be interested to see which loco-hauled services were introduced in 1991. 

 

Do you know what the loco-hauled stock was (loco class and type of coaching stock) on the Fife Circle pre-Summer 1991 at all? 

 

On 05/02/2019 at 15:01, adb968008 said:

Inverness - Kyle had the Hebriddean Heritage set with 37/4s that lasted beyond sprinterisation.

156’s took over all Far North services in 1989, same time as the bridge collapse at Loch Ness, the 156’s were roaded across to enable far north lines to be sprinterised in the original time lines.

 

WHL was either just before or just after.

 

i think it was 1990 158’s took over Glasgow/Edinburgh to Inverness from 47’s.

 

There was a winter of discontent, as 158’s didn’t have adequate ploughs, so 158/156 hybrid units were created, and had to run round the triangle at Inverness to have the 156 leading southbound.

 

i think last time I had a 26 for haulage, was Aberdeen to Inverness circa 1988, though I did railtours with them into the 1990’s, and I’ve pictures of them at Queen street still around 1988/9.

 

regional Railways 37/4s took over Aberdeen -Inverness services in 1993 - 1995 for a period, with Scotrail branded Regional Railways stock.

 

Scotrail sleeper has never ceased to be Loco hauled.

 

 

 

Thanks also, I was aware of Inverness-Aberdeen LHCS workings in the early 19 90s but not precise dates, I gather some were possibly ad hoc workings being described as formed of "scratch" rakes.

 

 

 

Does anyone have precise (at least to the month if possible) dates for:

 

When 156s were used on ScotRail Express services, including the typical length of sets - 2, 4, 6-car

When 158s were introduced and fully in service on ScotRail routes

When 101s were re-introduced in Scotland

 

Also if possible the general routes the 101s and 107s operated if indeed they had specific routes at all.

 

Thank you all again for being such a treasure trove of information!

 

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156 entry into service was timed to be ready for the  bi-annual timetable changes.

 

156’s started West Highland in January 1989

156’s started April 1989 in the Far North Highlands as 4 car units, a month early than the timetable change, as they were transported by road.

156s started Kilmarnock, Cumbernauld and Barrhead in August 1989

156s started Stranraer in October 1989

 

158’s took over Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness in September 1990, this was supposed to be May 1990, but were late delivered and caused issues.

 

It was this delay that saw NSE mk2s looking really rough, appear on Inverness Aberdeen services in May-September 1990. There was some interesting haulage too.... I had 37708 one day.

 

 Sprinterisation was then complete.

 

sprinterisation was very fast, and very efficient, loco hauled just dissapeared except intercity / sleeper services down south, which still was domain of pairs of 37’s or a 47, or sometimes a mix of 37/47.

 

Winter 1990 when the 158s struggled with snow / ice saw some creativity, some 156s were split by combining with 158s as they had ploughs, these hybrids needed to be turned at each end. Quite a lot of ploughing went on but there seemed a determined effort to keep it as sprinters.

 

Edited by adb968008
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  • 3 weeks later...
On ‎13‎/‎02‎/‎2019 at 09:04, adb968008 said:

156 entry into service was timed to be ready for the  bi-annual timetable changes.

 

156’s started West Highland in January 1989

156’s started April 1989 in the Far North Highlands as 4 car units, a month early than the timetable change, as they were transported by road.

156s started Kilmarnock, Cumbernauld and Barrhead in August 1989

156s started Stranraer in October 1989

 

158’s took over Glasgow/Edinburgh to Aberdeen and Inverness in September 1990, this was supposed to be May 1990, but were late delivered and caused issues.

 

It was this delay that saw NSE mk2s looking really rough, appear on Inverness Aberdeen services in May-September 1990. There was some interesting haulage too.... I had 37708 one day.

 

 Sprinterisation was then complete.

 

sprinterisation was very fast, and very efficient, loco hauled just dissapeared except intercity / sleeper services down south, which still was domain of pairs of 37’s or a 47, or sometimes a mix of 37/47.

 

Winter 1990 when the 158s struggled with snow / ice saw some creativity, some 156s were split by combining with 158s as they had ploughs, these hybrids needed to be turned at each end. Quite a lot of ploughing went on but there seemed a determined effort to keep it as sprinters.

 

 

Thank you, that's very useful. I don't suppose you know if the 156s operated all the Glasgow-Edinburgh and Aberdeen services between May and September 1990 pending 158 introduction or whether it was just some?

 

 

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Perhaps I've been too specific about this, so instead could someone maybe confirm the following?

 

For 1990,

 

Post May - no push-pull

Inverness-Aberdeen goes to loco-hauled with 156s sent south to Haymarket. Presumably not all Inverness 156s though? Some being retained for Far North/Kyle?

 

156s at Haymarket cover Edinburgh-Glasgow (mainly 4 and 6-car), Glasgow-Aberdeen (mainly as 2-car with the odd 150/2 strengthener) with this service going to hourly.

 

Edinburgh-Aberdeen remains loco-hauled? And is the Edinburgh-Dundee extended to Aberdeen at this point or when the 158s are available?

 

Glasgow/Edinburgh-Inverness remains loco-hauled with one diagram also doing an Edinburgh & Glasgow return?

 

158s enter service from September with the ex-Inverness 156s at Haymarket going back north.

 

At this point then ScotRail has 107, 150, 156 and 158 units, no 101s or 117s. The 117s appearing from 1993 and I'm not sure when 101s returned to Scotland.

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  • 1 year later...

I didn't want to start a new thread (and I don't know if it's already been mentioned here), but browsing YouTube I found the below video of services at Stirling and Perth. At about the 13min point at Perth there's a mk3 set being pushed, the coach next to the 47 is a blue/grey sleeper. Any idea why? 

 

 

(Or does it just fall into the 'prototype for everything' category if you own a single sleeper coach for no reason?!)

 

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3 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

I didn't want to start a new thread (and I don't know if it's already been mentioned here), but browsing YouTube I found the below video of services at Stirling and Perth. At about the 13min point at Perth there's a mk3 set being pushed, the coach next to the 47 is a blue/grey sleeper. Any idea why? 

 

(Or does it just fall into the 'prototype for everything' category if you own a single sleeper coach for no reason?!)

 

The 23.30 Glasgow - Inverness had an extra sleeper which was removed at Perth and then attached to a push-pull set to work the 01.10 Perth - Aberdeen. The sleeper was detached at Aberdeen on arrival at 03.16 so the push-pull set could be cleaned and watered (and that the occupants were no woken up until 07.30). The next set to terminate at Aberdeen was the 07.25 Glasgow - Aberdeen Mk3a set so the Mk3a sleeper was attached to this, departing at 11.05, to take it back to Cowlairs ready for that evenings sleeper services. There was no Aberdeen - Glasgow sleeping car service in the timetable.

This arrangement was used Monday to Thursday every week from 1986 to 1990, the sleeper to Aberdeen did not run on a Friday night.

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16 minutes ago, Satan's Goldfish said:

I didn't want to start a new thread (and I don't know if it's already been mentioned here), but browsing YouTube I found the below video of services at Stirling and Perth. At about the 13min point at Perth there's a mk3 set being pushed, the coach next to the 47 is a blue/grey sleeper. Any idea why? 

 

 

(Or does it just fall into the 'prototype for everything' category if you own a single sleeper coach for no reason?!)

 

Perfectly normal, a push-pull was used to return the sleeper off the Glasgow-Aberdeen internal sleeper working, usually the 1100/1105 Aberdeen-Queen Street.

 

On arrival at Queen Street the sleeper would be removed to be taken to up to Cowlairs for servicing.

 

Rather unusually there was no Aberdeen-Glasgow sleeper working, it was northbound only.

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The first Class 150 has been there though on trials when it was first built and I suspect the Class 950 departmental one has been up there too at some point.

 

Is there any reason for no 158's though?

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Smart answer, there has always been somewhere more important to send the 158s (in that switching to 158s is unlikely to increase bums on seats).

Practical answer, the 156 give slightly better view all around and in the summer having the windows open adds something.

Engineering answer the 158 is wider and longer. Its also, as we found out on the Ely- Norwich line speed increase in 1989/90,  wider in different places than a MK3 so you have to do all the stations again for clearance.

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4 hours ago, caradoc said:

Yes, in fact apart from Class 156 no other 2nd gen DMU has worked the route; This will soon change of course with the Scotrail Class 153 conversions ! 

 

 

Except 150s, the unique 140 (all the way to Mallaig, there was a report on such a trip in a Rail Enthusiast of the time) and a 210 DEMU, the 4-car unit.;)

 

And most of those runs were replacing service trains, not specials.

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1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

The first Class 150 has been there though on trials when it was first built and I suspect the Class 950 departmental one has been up there too at some point.

 

Is there any reason for no 158's though?

 

Clearances mainly, though it was considered as long ago as NatEx days when arrival of the 170s enabled 158s to be cascaded to all sorts of secondary workings and routes replacing 156s

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18 minutes ago, hexagon789 said:

Except 150s, the unique 140 (all the way to Mallaig, there was a report on such a trip in a Rail Enthusiast of the time) and a 210 DEMU, the 4-car unit.;)

 

And most of those runs were replacing service trains, not specials.

 

But on very few occasions only; Never on a regular basis. 

 

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2 hours ago, John M Upton said:

The first Class 150 has been there though on trials when it was first built and I suspect the Class 950 departmental one has been up there too at some point.

 

On special occasions only, never on a regular basis, and the 950 not of course as a passenger train. 

 

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  • 6 months later...
  • 4 months later...

I had always thought that the standard or normal Edinburgh Glasgow push pulls were rakes of 6 in 1985/86  4 x Mk3a SO, 1 x Mk3a CO and DBSO.  

 

I was sure I had checked this before, however when recently I was looking to buy a few more to deal with some which are looking a bit rough I was checking again and all I can see on YouTube videos (Alan Harrison and jbg06003) are rakes of 5, 3 x Mk3a SO, 1 x Mk3a CO and DBSO.  Worth adding these are (post May) 1986 videos, but am sure an old VHS of Yesterdays ScotRail filmed mostly in October 1985 they were 6 rake sets including one with an FO Aircon instead of a Mk3a CO.

 

This got me wondering, did the rakes get shortened round about that time and if so did this coincide with going from 3 services an hour to 4?

 

I managed to get 4 Lima SO on the plus side they have been renumbered to a good standard, but they have the dark blue stripe I think they were originally Lima's Sc12025.  I'm unsure if that was deliberste to represent the short lived dark blue version or a livery application error.  My preference is rakes of the lighter blue.  Trying to decide whether I keep hunting for others with the lighter colour or apply Fox transfers ScotRail stripes.  I have three packs here an old FMR version and one  newish Fox version.  Not sure what the third is, each are a different shade of the lighter blue and assuming they are correct Lima's white stripe is a bit too thick. Have been told the weathered version of the Fox transfers is the best as in closest to match the Bachmann 477 and DBSO.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Waverley47708
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They started as six car sets but were reduced to five (3 TSO, CO, DBSO) in 1986. I think it only lasted about 6 months though as they were back up to six car in 1987. I'm pretty sure I've seen a comment in a Railway Observer around that time but at the moment I don't know any more details.

 

Bob Reid would know all the details but he hasn't visited RMweb since January 2020, I hope that's not due to bad news.

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Thanks Flood, hope you are well. 

 

That makes sense I'm not going mad, it looks like two of my favourite YouTube films captured the 5 rake period.

 

The WTT I have  May 1985 to May 1986 has the loading as D210, I always assume this was worked out as 35t per coach (based on the 4 coach Edinburgh to Dundee being D140)  which works out as 6 for that period May 1985 to May 1986.  Going to assume it was the period after that they went to 5.

 

 

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

 

I was sure I had checked this before, however when recently I was looking to buy a few more to deal with some which are looking a bit rough I was checking again and all I can see on YouTube videos (Alan Harrison and jbg06003) are rakes of 5, 3 x Mk3a SO, 1 x Mk3a CO and DBSO.  Worth adding these are (post May) 1986 videos, but am sure an old VHS of Yesterdays ScotRail filmed mostly in October 1985 they were 6 rake sets including one with an FO Aircon instead of a Mk3a CO.

 

This got me wondering, did the rakes get shortened round about that time and if so did this coincide with going from 3 services an hour to 4?

I always thought it was when the FO were converted to CO in 1985, which was not long after the sets were turned out in the new ScotRail 'Express' livery.

 

Also what do you mean by 3 services per hour to 4? AFAIK from the late-1960s right up until September 1999 (the launch of the Class 170 TurboStars on a 15 min frequency), the Edinburgh-(Falkirk High)-Glasgow Queen Street service was always 2 per hour, all that changed was the schedule and stopping pattern I thought?

 

One additional thing re 5 car sets - on the 19th June 1985 a record run was made for which a standard set was shortened to 5 coaches (the minimum permitted for 100mph running) in a bid to achieve a 35 min run, sadly it came up short achieving a timing of some 36 and a half mins.

 

Could the reduction perhaps then be related to wanting to reduce the running time further?

 

In May 1985 the service was altered so both departures called at Falkirk High instead of only one - the running time being 45 mins (previously 42 or 45 mins depending on stops).

 

In May 1986 stops were added at Polmont or Linlithgow (one call each per hour alternating) and the running time was extended to 48 mins with this pattern lasted until September 1999 except that running time was further extended to 50 mins in 1990 when the Sprinters came in.

 

2 hours ago, Waverley47708 said:

The WTT I have  May 1985 to May 1986 has the loading as D210, I always assume this was worked out as 35t per coach (based on the 4 coach Edinburgh to Dundee being D140)  which works out as 6 for that period May 1985 to May 1986.  Going to assume it was the period after that they went to 5.

That doesn't necessarily mean that it was actually booked 6 coaches though to be fair, only that the schedule permitted a maximum weight of 210 tonnes or 6 coaches.

 

As the timings were not accelerated in May 1986, I think it is fair to assume the timing load remained as D210 even if the sets were generally formed as 5 coaches for this period.

 

The Clansman for instance had a timing load of 455 tonnes (13 coaches) but was usually 11 oreven coaches even in high summer. Not to say it never loaded to its booked maximum weight, it did, but it was more commonly not fully loaded out.

 

 

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Apologies I have not figured out multi quote yet.

 

I really need to dig out my VHS or find the DVD copies I made of Yesterdays ScotRail  as I say above mostly October 1985.  From memory mostly 6 coach rakes some COs but possibly some Mk3a FOs.  Definitely a Mk2 aircon FO. A great video, the quality is not brilliant but around an hour of great action from the end of Plt 15.

 

On the number of services per hour, that is odd, I was sure, as in I'd have put money on it that there were 3 per hour in 1985 however my 13 May 1985 to 11 May 1986 WTT and my passenger timetable have 2 per hour, departing Waverley on the hour and half past.  Upto the loft later to check the next timetable to see if it changed by then.  Interestingly I am sure that the next timetable did not cover the full year.  I say I am sure but given how certain I was about the there being 3 per hour in 1985 I am not sure I trust anything I say now!  They did go to 4 per hour but not sure I have that timetable to check when as my interest wanes by 1987.

 

On the whys wherefores and when the 6 became 5 and then 6 again I need to leave that to others.  The thing that kicked of the doubt in my mind and had my counting coaches in videos over the weekend was that Fox transfers do ten stripes per pack not twelve.  Reminds me of the 6 hot dog rolls and jars of 8 hotdogs. 

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