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Class 92 Electric loco in N and OO gauge decision and thoughts?


DJM Dave

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Hi everyone,

 

After I announced the class 92 project in both N and OO (both projects i had been working on for 5 years), i was contacted by Ben Ando from RevolutioN Trains and asked to drop the N gauge version and in return they would drop plans for the OO version leaving that version free for me to do.

 

As i had my doubts due to legal reasons, i declined, and as Ben rightly said to me in his e-mails, 2 of the same loco are unlikely to garner enough support through this medium. However i have always wanted to do a Class 92 hence my originally announcing one when working for a previous employer.

 

Therefore after sending out the invoices for the N gauge one i am receiving quite a few cancellations from what would have been customers of mine, stating that they are going to go elsewhere for their class 92 models models.

 

So, i'm torn. A lot of work has gone into this project and i am the only one to have crawled over the class 92 in real life and know practically every panel , line, lump and bump, and had a simply terrific loco in store for you all in both gauges.

Like i put in my release, i have all the permissions, art work the only and incorrect works drawings, 

However as a very experienced multi award winning manufacturer and designer of N gauge with a long track record of producing award winning product, and now bringing product to market i  feel i should not acquiesce a second time.

 

But if i'm to lose this 'race' then i'll do it with your opinions on board.

 

So for now i wont invoice the OO deposits, and sit by the cancellation button on the N gauge one.

 

So what do i do? Over to you.

Cheers

Dave

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Well that sucks!

 

I suppose it is up to you to decide what to do, but I think its a bit rough for RevolutioN trains to remain silent until now, they could have informed you a bit sooner and clarified their intentions to do an N gauge one

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How can people say their going elsewhere when Revolution haven't announced that their doing a 92? Or have I missed something as I don't see anything on their website.

 

Of course we don't know how far they are with R&D etc, but at the end of the day crowd funding is crowd funding. You already said it's very successful. I am 100% committed even if a competitor comes along saying their going to do a 92 as well, sorry but my money is (will have when you invoice) already gone/going to DJM.

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Hello all,

 

In answer to the direct questions:

 

We stayed silent until now as we are unwilling to announce anything further until we have delivered models. That remains the case.

 

Without wishing to confirm or deny anything, if we contacted Dave, as he has posted above, it was as a courtesy and in confidence.

 

Mike and I would not want any news about our plans to come out like this; we would certainly never break confidences about a fellow enthusiast's plans.

 

Cheers

 

Ben A.

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Why not collaborate under a DJM / Revolution banner on this (Assuming the Revolution announcement at this stage is nothing more than that / CAD drawings perhaps / No manufacturer has been chosen yet)? There is clearly a good demand for such a high specification loco in N and OO and it seems daft from a consumer viewpoint of 2 manufacturers yet again wanting to do the same loco at the same time. We as consumers have waited [years?] for such a model and finally we get two manufacturers come along in one go!

 

From a consumer viewpoint I will support who offered the product first as a definitive 'its going ahead' and personally I've expressed an interest in one of each of the OO models already (with DCC Sound) as when looking at the DJM Class 71 it makes me wish I had ordered one as not my era (As such) but the quality and the detail simply look amazing in comparison to the other manufacturers offering and I believe that with all the research you have put into the 92 project already you will do it the justice it deserves.

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Hi Dave

 

Just a quick message to say that I'm fully committed to buying the OO gauge class 92 from your good self, as you where the first to announce the project,also I was expecting my invoice in the next day or so and the spec you are offering is going to be very high. So let's go for it.

 

All the best

 

Craig

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Hello,

 

Well the 00 model is in my sights but I have also signed up for an N gauge one as the quailty of these models is always improving and I feel always shall and it shall make a nice little project to build a small n gauge layout in the future.

 

However I do feel it a shame that we are yet again in the same position again of having 2 models produced by the different companies, the suggestion of a joit venture with revolution trains sounds like an acceptable idea here. Or if revolution is to go down the route of doing n gauge models and DJ models the 00 maybe there could be some collaberation for an upscaling of the 320 /321 with DJ to 00.

 

However if this is not the solution agreeded I would agree with the prevuious comments and commit to paying the funding to see DJM producing the model in both 00 and N as this was the first announcement.

 

Benjamin

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If people wish to back the first to announce then that'll be Dapol... what little an announcement really counts for. Seems a misguided approach to me.

 

Bit of a disappointing move by Dave I'd say, whilst we can't know what's brought us to this point clearly Ben reached out in good faith, and Has seemingly been let down a bit by Dave.

 

I'll put my chips on the table and say I'd sooner back Revolution on a hypothetical product. Dave - I worry about your extensive back catalogue in N, much of which is massively overdue, by your own timescales. I've also made no bones of the fact you're not doing the livery I am most interested in (grey with EWS beasties). We saw something similar with the 59 which never came to fruition.

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Duplication will unfortunately happen and it is annoying for manufacturers on both sides, it is up to you to either carry on or not. We'll put the potential outing of another manufacturer's plans on one side.

 

- You and Hornby both have the OO J94, 71 and the 92 in your lineups

- Farish and Dapol have the N Class 66

- Dapol and Minerva have the O gauge Pannier in their plans

 

If RevolutioN decide to do a 92 in either or both gauges as their own thing they can. Customers will decide on who has the better offering. For the record I'm not interested in a Class 92 in any scale, I will however dive on the next manufacturer to get a J94 in N out of the factory.

 

Quick addition: If you do have the 92 in a more progressed state than anyone else and have orders confirmed that should put you on the front footing.

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Hi Dave,

 

After reading about this conflict of interest between models, I would say let progress take its course. As you say, you have already extensively researched the prototype and you are confident that your model is the best rendition of a class 92 possible, which I agree with considering the hands on research and livery spec diagrams etc. you've shared with us. Therefore I'd go ahead with your ultimate 92 model in both scales, due to the fact it will be as accurate as possible.

 

Although Rapido's policy is not to announce anything until they are nearly ready to release the product, I'm baffled by the fact that companies don't talk to each other about what they are doing to prevent such a predicament as this. I'm sure Rapido's rendition will be a great model, but having seen no plans of any kind, I find revealing models this late in the production process offputting, as we have no idea to what spec the model will be, or any information for that matter. When released, the purchaser will have to make a quick decision as to whether they want one, and invest all monies at once. Being relatively young with no regular income, I simply cannot just part with £100+ in one go, which is why £50 or so every few months is my preferred option of paying for a model, which I know due to the openness of the manufacturer, is the absolute best it could be. I (so far, despite the early stages of the DJM 92) feel as if I am a part of the production process with crowdfunding, whereas I have no idea about any details of the Rapido model, until it practically hits the shelves, and wouldn't have known about it at all right now had it not been for this thread.

 

This is simply a teenager's understanding of this conflict, and please do correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but based on this I will stand by Dave on this one. Sorry Rapido, but despite the cat being out the bag and running round the houses, I feel that the DJM model will be one I've had a say in and seen progress, and not one that I either buy, or don't buy, with no choice in advance.

 

Many thanks,

Jack.

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We now have the at least following companies active in OO RTR:

 

Hornby

Bachmann

Dapol

DJM

Rapido (so far only via commissioned work)

Realtrack

Oxford

Revolution

SLW

Heljan

 

+ Kernow and Hattons both commissioning multiple models

 

Apologies to those I've missed out. This doesn't include the niche high end brass stuff which exists in its own market. With all of those companies I think duplication is inevitable. Not because of anything sinister or because of bully boy tactics but because companies will be looking for projects offering the most promising returns and for which there is a good market. Particularly in modern image we have gotten to a point where the only way people will be able to produce new locomotives is to basically duplicate somebody else's offering (plenty of space for EMUs though....). There are legal prohibitions which prevent manufacturers getting together to carve up the market and even if they were inclined to do so I think cartels rarely do any good in the long run. Which means that this is going to be the new norm for the hobby and manufacturers will have to deal with it.

I do have sympathy for manufacturers as if they announce early they're pilloried for the time it takes to deliver the model. If they announce late then they risk being gazumped and then they're generally the ones accused of copying as they announce after somebody else. I see no answer other than to accept it is a commercial risk and factor it into business models. This is not unique to OO and indeed in other markets there seems to be an acceptance that duplication is a part of the hobby and it seems normal for different producers to go head to head with customers making their choice. I'm currently in an Italian phase and if you look at a locomotive like the E.636 it is modelled in HO by Roco, ACME, LE Models and Lima Expert (and all four are excellent).

On the immediate question, all I can advise is that it is for Dave to make an evaluation as to whether the project is viable for him and then act on that.

Something I would say, and I do not want this to be seen as any sort of attack or anything, but I I think it would have been better to have omitted the first bit about Revolution and their letter and to have just informed us that another company was in process of producing the Class 92. Just my opinion.

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Revolution could have contacted Dave as soon as his plans were announced so both were aware of the situation but chose to keep quiet until now, and then complain when he made that late contact public, um I will leave that there!

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In addition to my previous post, I don't agree with Dave making Revolution's plans public, but knowing which company, or the fact that another company, is to produce this model too has not swayed my decision to invest in the best model possible that suits me. Ultimately only Dave can decide what to do following the Hornby/DJM 71 clash and J94 clash also, and I'm sure he'll make the best decision based on the viability of his product.

 

Thanks,

Jack.

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Wow!  Okay, well firstly, huge excitement to read a few weeks ago of the DJM Class 92 and have since expressed an interest in four models in OO scale.  As such, eagerly awaiting the order confirmation and further news that everything is going ahead...

 

So, I'm naturally extremely dismayed and surprised, to say the least, to now read that maybe the DJM Class 92 may well not be going into production.  While I can totally understand the predicament, I hate to say this but I simply cannot help but feel a sense of déjà vu - whereby previously experiencing a similar sequence of emotions of excitement, followed by putting forward my 'expressions of interest' for previously announced models/potential models:

 

Class 59

Class 86/87

and now Class 92

 

...in other words, there seems to be an unfortunate pattern developing? 

 

Still, should you decide to go ahead with the OO Class 92 - and I sincerely hope that you do -  then I will continue my support in the completion of my order for the four models requested. 

 

I'm sure you've asked yourself this question already, but is it totally unfeasible for DJM to go ahead with the OO scale model by itself and allow RevolutioN to complete the N gauge version?

 

Hopefully your issues can be resolved and we can see the Class 92 produced as planned.  If this one also falls by the wayside, in a similar way to the Class 59 and Class 86/87, then well, sad to say but I figure I'll be holding back on both the "excitement" and "expressions of interest" factors on the next announcement, whatever that might prove to be.

 

I'm sincerely sorry to sound so negative, but if that's the case I hope that you understand that it's purely down to a sense of huge disappointment.

 

I hope you make the right decision.

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Revolution could have contacted Dave as soon as his plans were announced so both were aware of the situation but chose to keep quiet until now, and then complain when he made that late contact public, um I will leave that there!

 

 

If you read Dave's post it states that Ben contacted him once Dave's announcement was made public? (Although not confirmed by Ben as by his post above - which I can understand). It would appear from Dave's post that it was he who turned down a counter offer of not producing the N gauge version in return for the OO.

 

As for outing a potential rival's product before an official announcement - its a big no no, especially if you have insider knowledge.

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Personally I am dismayed that dirty laundry is being displayed on RMWeb and potentially we as modellers are being asked to pick between Revolution and DJM.

 

It's not something Dapol, Bachmann or Hornby would do.

 

None of us on this site outside of those fully in the know will be able to judge who is in the right here yet we are being asked to pick a side.

 

Sorry Dave but I would cry foul here, it's your decision not ours.

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You have my backing in OO Dave, you have made it feel as if we are part of your production process and we have a say. You have also produced many amazing models in the past, plus I doubt they can produce the New Caledonian 92 with all the mods!!! You also have a very detailed and highly tooled model with lots of specs.

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I don't understand all of this. Surely the offer to carve up the market, giving one manufacturer the OO model and the other the N model was illegal under EU competition law? (Remember, we are still in the EU.) And if someone says to Dave "I am going to make such-and-such a model" he is well within his rights to pass that message on as he has not agreed to any condition of secrecy with the other party.

 

I think Revolution should have made their plans public some time ago, rather than now, when Dave has sent out invoices for the first part of the payment for the N gauge model.

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A dissappointing development.

 

I will likely now wait and see what occurs.

 

I have no interest in N.

 

A decent high spec 92 is of interest for my layout though in OO (p4).

 

You have to make the decision yourself Dave I think, as you know more factors than we can.

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