Accurately back-dating RTR models to suit pre-grouping condition

[Compound2632]

I've also always believed that the description 'Pre-Grouping' is a bit misleading for some people getting started in modelling. A late friend used his own system of dating to help narrow down the age range. I can't remember the exact details but it was something like this for steam era:

 

1825 - 1855   Pioneer Age

1855 - 1890   Consolidation

1890 - 1914   Golden Age

1914 - 1922   Pre-Group

1922 - 1948   Big Four

1948 - 1968   Steam Twilight

1968 -            Preservation

 

He also had other categories for dieselisation and electrification but, for the life of me, I can't recall how they were broken down.

 

Dave R. 

 

There's a lot of overlap. In some ways many of the pre-grouping companies were at their most characteristic in the mid-to-late 1920s, before infrastructure maintenance and rolling stock renewal cycles had started to introduce group standards; for the same reason the Big Four were at their most characteristic in the 1950s. From an operational point of view, the railway had reached a certain point of sophistication by the 1890s from which it did not change (advance?) until the 1970s. Discuss...

[BG John]

From an operational point of view, the railway had reached a certain point of sophistication by the 1890s from which it did not change (advance?) until the 1970s. Discuss...

Did not change in the 1890s? It went backwards, due to narrow minded attitudes .

[Talltim]

Going back on topic, how about a list of RTR locos/stock that were built pre-grouping even if the models represent later versions? Then the mods required to backdate each model could be appended to the list.

If someone could be curator and start the thread then the list could be in the first post and be added to and amended as people provide more info.

Unfortunately my knowledge of what is available RTR nowadays is not good enough to suggest more than the most obvious models

[Talltim]

Did not change in the 1890s? It went backwards, due to narrow minded attitudes .

Are the Irish/Spanish/Russians etc more broad minded?

[Compound2632]

Did not change in the 1890s? It went backwards, due to narrow minded attitudes .

 

I should have said, the Great Western is an exception, in this as in many things. What I had in mind was the 1889 Regulation of Railways Act that required block working, interlocking, and continuous brakes on passenger trains.

[Andy Hayter]

Going back on topic, how about a list of RTR locos/stock that were built pre-grouping even if the models represent later versions? Then the mods required to backdate each model could be appended to the list.

If someone could be curator and start the thread then the list could be in the first post and be added to and amended as people provide more info.

Unfortunately my knowledge of what is available RTR nowadays is not good enough to suggest more than the most obvious models

 

 

That is going to be a rather big task - if for no other reason than those already put forward 100years of history and probably in total over 100 potential companies.

 

However if folk are prepared to wait a day or two I will try and make a start on a list.

[BG John]

I think it needs something rather more sophisticated than RMweb to do it properly, but we can start here and see how it goes.

[Talltim]

That is going to be a rather big task - if for no other reason than those already put forward 100years of history and probably in total over 100 potential companies.

 

However if folk are prepared to wait a day or two I will try and make a start on a list.

Are there that many RTR models suitable for backdating? I'm not talking converting to another class with a major rebuild.

[BG John]

Are there that many RTR models suitable for backdating? I'm not talking converting to another class with a major rebuild.

That's no fun!

[Londontram]

Are there that many RTR models suitable for backdating? I'm not talking converting to another class with a major rebuild.

Just make sure your choice of donor meets with the approval of the thread moderator!

[Andy Hayter]

Are there that many RTR models suitable for backdating? I'm not talking converting to another class with a major rebuild.

 

 

Without any in depth work I am already at over 20 models released in pre-grouping livery or with at least some potential for backdating.  My knowledge and understanding of L:SWR and GWR earlier locos is to say the least limited so there could easily be more.

[Talltim]

Without any in depth work I am already at over 20 models released in pre-grouping livery or with at least some potential for backdating. My knowledge and understanding of L:SWR and GWR earlier locos is to say the least limited so there could easily be more.

Ok fair enough. As I say I'm not really up to date as to what is out there

[Andy Hayter]

A first pass list has been posted in a new thread.

 

 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/115507-00-rtr-models-with-potential-to-be-used-on-pre-grouping-layouts/

 

This is our thread, so feel free to add or criticise.

[Buhar]

The ROD can pop up in the LYR, LNWR and Caley lists with minor adjustments.

 

Should OO works offerings be included, they are RTR although not widely available?

[Andy Hayter]

Personally I would say yes.

There are a number of items on the list from mainstream producers that are difficult to source because they were made as limited editions that sold our ages ago. If/when they crop up on ebay the sale price is usually well out of reach for most. The model however still exists and therefore I think we should record it.

 

In the end it is our list - not my list. So what do others think.

[brianusa]

Quote

At the weekend I went to a local model railway show (Aylsham in Norfolk) and there was two layouts there one 0 gauge tin plate and the other Hornby dublo three rail the chaps running both were have a great time

 

Precisely the reason I ended up with a tinplate layout!  We tend not to fret too much about precise detail and as long as I looks like a locomotive, that's fine and we don't worry about three rails.  But then again, when I look at your lovely, accurate and stunning models, I can appreciate how much pleasure you get from them, its just that I'm not up that kind of craftsmanship.  So we all appreciate our hobby and the way we run our trains; its just that they are all different.

 

Brian.

[Skaran]

I have a Bachmann O4 sitting in my cupboard. What I would like are nice simple step by step instructions in how to backdate it to a 1913's condition GCR 8K. Anyone done this?

[Edwardian]

There's a whole philosophical thread which could come out of that, but a "toy" is something to be played with, and as such any operating layout is a toy. A model is something which (nubile nymphettes in skimpy underwear and crinkly old men posing for life drawing classes in art school aside) is a representation of real life, so anything which looks like a train is a model!

Obviously there is almost a continuum from the crudest (in terms of detail) toy to the most exquisite scratch built layout to prototypically based track and wheel standards, operated according to a working timetable with full interlocking of points and signals, etc. *

 

The only question that matters is where has one chosen to "sit" on that line, and is that the right place to be? Know what you want, what you are prepared to put in, and what resources you have to achieve what you want. Balance those, and you will be happy. Balance them not, and disillusion will take over your hobby.

 

* Apart from the full interlocking (when I suggested it, I was told, "You build it and I will fit it," which seems reasonable enough) I am lucky enough to have access to both of these extremes, and enjoy them both immensely: neither has any pretence at all about what it is. Until he admitted that he wasn't really interested in trains and we liberated the tale of set track, I used to have a lot of fun with my son's 00 train set, too. Not sure I should admit it in this forum, but I do own a Hornby class 153, and very good it is, too.

 

For my children, particularly my son, who can appreciate fine detail and accuracy in a model or lifelike computer graphics in a game, there is an enduring fascination with more stylised forms, Lego and Minecraft.   These latter are objectively crude and unrealistic in comparison, but they offer greater creative opportunities, and once the nature of that world is accepted, one can happily dwell within it and find it endlessly absorbing (apparently). 

 

Perhaps, in due course, the highly individualistic models I have bashed and bodged as against a state of the art RTR model, that wows you with its detail but which is endlessly seen, will offer a similar comparison.  

 

Modelling is, after all the art of the willing suspension of disbelief.  There can be few, if any, art forms more artificial than opera, yet, if one is prepared to step into that world, it becomes real. 

 

I don't see why, on that basis, "coarse scale" should not be as satisfying as anything else.

 

I suspect that I am merely a fuzzyheaded old fool, given over to the idea of a romantic vision of England and her railway's combination of beauty with utility, born of a more optimistic age.  For that I don't need to agonise over every last dimension, but I do need a half convincing overall picture.  In other words, it is a personal matter of matching the standard to which I aspire to the effect I want to achieve.  For other people, the objectives and methods will inevitably be different and lead, quite properly, to different results.

[Caley Jim]

Aren't we all silly old fools? But why is the romantic notion confined to England? The Caledonian Railway had, at one time, the highest number of journeys booked at an average of 60mph start to stop of any other company!

Anyway, we're in our own little world, but it's OK, everyone here knows us. :-)

 

Jim

[Edwardian]

Aren't we all silly old fools? But why is the romantic notion confined to England? The Caledonian Railway had, at one time, the highest number of journeys booked at an average of 60mph start to stop of any other company!

Anyway, we're in our own little world, but it's OK, everyone here knows us. :-)

 

Jim

 

I knew the moment I typed that, that you would say this!  And fair enough.  I suppose I am more familiar with various bits of England than anywhere else, and it was a post that concerned my personal emotional responses, rather than one that offered a comment on what was objectively worth modelling, so I left it in!

 

I am certainly no less interested in seeing the Scottish, or Irish, or Welsh, pre-Grouping scene modelled than I am the English, just as I have real difficulty in excluding one English region or company in favour of another!

[Caley Jim]

t the end of the day, we're a' Jock Thamson's bairns!

 

Jim

[Donw]

Some things can be very difficult to backdate. The GWR 517 class ended up looking rather like the later 14xx back to the early 1900s and the were rather open cabs Swindon and Wolverhampton had built the side tanks somewhat different. Go back to the first build and they were saddle tanks with a shorter wheelbase. 

Mind you I have a somewhat loose view of some matters provided the model matches the way some members of a class would have been I cannot get concerned whether I have picked the right number. Seeing as I would have to look it up. However if the model has features which none of the class carried I would not be best pleased. Some things can be fairly clear. I rather like the early livery with the brown frames but that probably excludes the belpaire biolered examples. No doubt that locos with the brown frames were running alongside Belpaire boilered examples but I suspect that at the time of having a new Belpaire boiler fitted they loco would have been repainted in  the new livery

Don

[Quarryscapes]

Some things can be very difficult to backdate. The GWR 517 class ended up looking rather like the later 14xx back to the early 1900s and the were rather open cabs Swindon and Wolverhampton had built the side tanks somewhat different. Go back to the first build and they were saddle tanks with a shorter wheelbase. 

Mind you I have a somewhat loose view of some matters provided the model matches the way some members of a class would have been I cannot get concerned whether I have picked the right number. Seeing as I would have to look it up. However if the model has features which none of the class carried I would not be best pleased. Some things can be fairly clear. I rather like the early livery with the brown frames but that probably excludes the belpaire biolered examples. No doubt that locos with the brown frames were running alongside Belpaire boilered examples but I suspect that at the time of having a new Belpaire boiler fitted they loco would have been repainted in  the new livery

Don

 

A very passable 517 turned up on ebay a while back, it was a 14xx with a new cab and removal of the faux outside frames on the trailing axle plus a few detail amendments, I put a bid in (but didn't win). It certainly looked the part. 

[BlueLightning]

I have decided to attempt to rive this thread!! We should have more discussion about R-T-R models that can be used for pre-grouping layouts!!!!

 

The way I have decided to do this is to make a post I said I was going to make all the way back on day 2 of this thread (3rd October)!! Which was not made for reasons we shall not mention, however what I promised was sent to the user that needed it at the time.

 

I present to you all the Midland Railway 3F in pre-grouping condition. Using the Tri-ang model!! Sitting next to an unmodified one, outside the engine shed on my old layout.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The model has had its chimney, dome, safety valves, buffers, and smoke box door replaced by parts from Craftsman Models.

 

The skirts have been cut away and chassis weight removed to provide daylight under the boiler. A new section has been added to the bottom of the boiler and it has been filled with lead to replace the weight.

 

The moulded on handrails have been removed and replaced with separately fitted parts.

 

Pipework, and a coupling hook have been added to the buffer beam.

 

The tender...... well...... I assure you that is the original Tri-ang Tender!!

 

The sides have been cut down and what was left has been filed flat. I then added flares to the top of the tender and spent some frustrating time scratch building some coal rails!!

 

The coal space was shortened to the correct size and a rear wall was added.

 

Panels were added to the sides as per prototype.

 

The rear steps were removed from the chassis.

 

Craftsman Models buffers, pipework, and a coupling hook were added to the buffer beam.

 

So rather a lot of work but nothing particularly hard. The model never made it past the primer stage before the razor saw found it again. It now trundles up and down Oak Hill hauling the goods service as an LB&SCR C2!! Yet another pre-grouping model made from an R-T-R product!!

 

Gary

[Edwardian]

I have decided to attempt to rive this thread!! We should have more discussion about R-T-R models that can be used for pre-grouping layouts!!!!

 

The way I have decided to do this is to make a post I said I was going to make all the way back on day 2 of this thread (3rd October)!! Which was not made for reasons we shall not mention, however what I promised was sent to the user that needed it at the time.

 

I present to you all the Midland Railway 3F in pre-grouping condition. Using the Tri-ang model!! Sitting next to an unmodified one, outside the engine shed on my old layout.

 

2015-07-02 00.10.28.jpg

 

2015-07-02 00.10.46.jpg

 

2015-07-02 00.11.01.jpg

 

2015-07-02 00.11.53.jpg

 

2015-07-02 00.12.00.jpg

 

2015-07-02 15.28.21.jpg

 

2015-07-02 15.28.39.jpg

 

2015-07-02 15.29.09.jpg

 

The model has had its chimney, dome, safety valves, buffers, and smoke box door replaced by parts from Craftsman Models.

 

The skirts have been cut away and chassis weight removed to provide daylight under the boiler. A new section has been added to the bottom of the boiler and it has been filled with lead to replace the weight.

 

The moulded on handrails have been removed and replaced with separately fitted parts.

 

Pipework, and a coupling hook have been added to the buffer beam.

 

The tender...... well...... I assure you that is the original Tri-ang Tender!!

 

The sides have been cut down and what was left has been filed flat. I then added flares to the top of the tender and spent some frustrating time scratch building some coal rails!!

 

The coal space was shortened to the correct size and a rear wall was added.

 

Panels were added to the sides as per prototype.

 

The rear steps were removed from the chassis.

 

Craftsman Models buffers, pipework, and a coupling hook were added to the buffer beam.

 

So rather a lot of work but nothing particularly hard. The model never made it past the primer stage before the razor saw found it again. It now trundles up and down Oak Hill hauling the goods service as an LB&SCR C2!! Yet another pre-grouping model made from an R-T-R product!!

 

Gary

 

Well revived, Sir!

 

More, please, when you're ready.