Using RTR models to represent the LSWR

[railroadbill]

 

This is how my triang repaint came out spraying Precision enamel paint.

 

 

Here's a very small part of a print of a  C Hamilton Ellis painting - don't think I'm in breach of copyright with such a small area but I'll remove it if requested by a mod.

 

 

 

This is preserved tri-composite brake at NRM York last year.  6474 is actually the Southern Railway number it carried from February 1926. It was originally 847 in LSWR days. When it was withdrawn in May 1948 it was repainted in LSWR livery to take part in celebrations for the centenary of Waterloo station along with the preserved T3 class.  The NRM have now restored the coach to exhibition state once more and obviously have kept the "Waterloo" SR number. Rather nice gesture, really. It is 56' and completed December 1903.

 

 

Here it is displayed with M7 245 in Drummond livery.

 

 

 

And from the other side from ground level in low light.

 

So depending on the light, this is a difficult colour to be sure about. C Hamilton Ellis wrote that ""The colour scheme was without parallel. While the upper panels were officially described as salmon, and were rather like tinned salmon when new, they weathered into a terracotta brown after about a week".

 

 

Having looked at the NRM pics again, I'm now  thinking that white roofs would look the part.  I was going to try a mid grey, on the assumption that white roofs just wouldn't stay white for long.

 

 

[Caley Jim]

Having looked at the NRM pics again, I'm now  thinking that white roofs would look the part.  I was going to try a mid grey, on the assumption that white roofs just wouldn't stay white for long.

Unless you want them to be in ex-works condition, then some shade of grey would be appropriate.  The longer they had been in service the darker (and 'sootier') the grey

 

Jim

[railroadbill]

Re the ex triang Clerestories.  Next stage is the new  roofs.  I cut the centre clerestory section off one roof  with the intention of  fitting the  roof part into the middle of the main roof.   However, the profile doesn't quite match.  I was going to try that on one of the brakes to give a retro "this is what it would have looked like if Triang/Hornby had produced an LSWR coach" look. But I'll use the cut down roof section as a template for plasticard roofs instead.

The compartment coaches are  fairly close to the right shape.

 

Went to a local model railway exhibition today and one demonstration stand  had an O gauge  model of an Adams 0380 class 4-4-0. It was in a green Adams goods livery and the guy who'd built it said he'd used a paint made for yachts as it was the closest he could get to the colour he wanted.  Did look good, maybe as the prototype had 5' 7" driving wheels like the 415 tank,  modifying an Oxford or Hornby model might be worth another look?  It did have solid "steamroller" front bogie wheels. I thought that looked really unusual.. The builder pointed out that solid bogie wheels were something that didn't catch on it Britain, however if you looked at an American loco like a  Union Pacific Big Boy solid carrying wheels would be normal.

[railroadbill]

A further R-T-R LSWR possibility.  Now found that  Hornby produced their Terrier in LSWR livery in 2011 as an exclusive club model. A friend on another forum gave me this link to a finished e-bay auction which does have a good picture of one. 

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R3046-LSWR-Terrier-Class-A1X-039-735-039-Collectors-Club-Special-Edition-/191989398867?nma=true&si=IaHFjs73snMB9OzVgwZKkexCCXE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

They must be fairly rare, hadn't come across one before. An option would be to find a cheaper Terrier and repaint it - h'mm.

 

One disadvantage is that they weren't actually LSWR locos, and only had very localised use, on the other hand 734 still survives as W8 Freshwater on the Isle of Wight and had quite a history.

[Edwardian]

A further R-T-R LSWR possibility.  Now found that  Hornby produced their Terrier in LSWR livery in 2011 as an exclusive club model. A friend on another forum gave me this link to a finished e-bay auction which does have a good picture of one. 

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Hornby-R3046-LSWR-Terrier-Class-A1X-039-735-039-Collectors-Club-Special-Edition-/191989398867?nma=true&si=IaHFjs73snMB9OzVgwZKkexCCXE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

 

They must be fairly rare, hadn't come across one before. An option would be to find a cheaper Terrier and repaint it - h'mm.

 

One disadvantage is that they weren't actually LSWR locos, and only had very localised use, on the other hand 734 still survives as W8 Freshwater on the Isle of Wight and had quite a history.

 

Terriers were used on the Lyme Regis branch to May 1907, replaced by O2s, which in turn were replaced by Radials 1913-4, but O2s did assist on the branch thereafter.  That Triang cut n' shut conversion I posted will give you a 2-coach set for the branch  from c.1909.

 

So you can justify up to 3 Radials, and an O2, and do a cheapy conversion for coaches for the Lyme Regis branch or some fictional variant.  If a fictional variant, stretch reality to overlap a Terrier.

[jwealleans]

We have one of the Terriers in the Ormesby fleet. The livery is very nicely applied, but we find it struggles on the hand made pointwork as Hornby have made the back to backs a bit tight. With outside brake rigging as well we're all a bit loath to start levering wheels backwards and forwards on axles, so it probably doesn't get the use it should. We were given two others with the railway, so we're not exactly underendowed with them.

[bbishop]

Thoughts on LSWR salmon. The starting point was probably slightly lighter than the NRM tri-comp. Then atmospheric pollutants would impact on the varnish, darkening the colour. Then sunlight would leach out the red pigment, so the coach would slowly lighten towards a cream colour.

 

Whatever we say about Claude Hamilton Ellis as a historian, he did have excellent colour perception. There are two well known paintings by CHE of LSWR coaches. Very different pigment, but they are both correct.

 

Bill

Edited January 24, 2021 by bbishop

[autocoach]

Not exactly RTR but a fairly easy kit to assemble, the long awaited Cambrian D 1410 10 T Van appears to now be available. 

 

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/116368-cambrian-lswr-diagram-1410-van-kit-now-in-production/

[Andrew Emery]

Kernow O2

 

Please excuse me if this post is slightly off-topic, but a group of LSWR modellers seemed just the place to ask; I model the LSWR in eatly Grouping days, and wondered if any of your ardent pre-grouping LSWR modellers had bought a Kernow O2 in 'Southern' livery, and were now thinking of disposing of it? If so, could you please send me a private message (PM)? I apoear to have missed-out on this version.

Many Thanks,

Andrew

[tractionman]

I must say I was rather looking forward to the arrival of the new Hornby T9 in LSWR 'sage green' (R3863), which is how it appears on initial publicity images of the model, eg

 

https://uk.Hornby.com/products/lswr-class-t9-4-4-0-120-era-2-r3863

 

but I see Kernow have recently posted a photo of the new T9 but now it seems to be in 'pea green'?

 

https://www.kernowmodelrailcentre.com/p/66899/R3863-Hornby-Class-T9-4-4-0-Steam-Locomotive-number-120-LSWR

 

it looks decidely more lurid in pea green to my eyes, but presumably this livery is correct for a T9? 

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

[railroadbill]

 

Unfinished project from a while ago, a GBL T9 in Urie green. The boiler (that now has separate handrails) was sprayed with Precision paints P408 LSWR Urie loco green. This (hopefully!) is the green used from Oct 1917 to Dec 1922 according to HMRS livery register.

 

That's the same as the first pics you linked to, for a late war to grouping loco.  The Kernow ones are definitely a lighter green. When preserved, 120 was painted into a green livery, so perhaps it's supposed to be that?

 

120 seems to have a quite light green livery (on a railtour 24 6 1962). Only picture I can find.

[Edwardian]

The GBL model was based on the Hornby Ltd Ed. in Urie green. That is based on a livery worn in preservation. 

 

Only 6 T9s were superheated by the SW, the first not having the boiler pitch raised, but quite a number followed in 1923-124 and many of these seem to have retained LSWR livery  for a year or two.

[SD85]

Can someone please explain to me why it is apparently so hard to backdate a T9 to as built condition. As far as I can tell all one has to do is shorten the smokebox and add wing plates and the cross boiler tube panels.

[Nick Holliday]

22 minutes ago, SD85 said:

Can someone please explain to me why it is apparently so hard to backdate a T9 to as built condition. As far as I can tell all one has to do is shorten the smokebox and add wing plates and the cross boiler tube panels.

I don't think there is any reason.  Your ideas seem perfectly doable, and I have contemplated doing the same, albeit with a Crownline white metal kit. It is the Class 700 0-6-0 that is hard to backdate, as the boiler was pitched higher in the rebuilding, whereas the T9 pitch remained the same.

[SD85]

Thanks, much appreciated. I suppose I was a little confused by the opening post of this thread which implied the T9 would be hard to convert. It's a fairly obvious conversion that I'm a bit surprised hasn't been done more often, although not as many people operate pre Grouping layouts. Still, there were unsuperheated T9s running in SR days too, so anyone modelling the 1920s could also do such a task.

[Skinnylinny]

It may be that the author of the first post mixed up their info about the T9 and 700 class - the 700 class is rather harder to backdate as the superheated boilers were raised in pitch by (I think?) 9 inches, so it's not just a case of shortening the smokebox. The fact that the boiler bottom on the Hornby 700 class is cast as part of the chassis as the motor mount makes things even trickier.

I'm in the process of backdating a Hornby 700 class, and it's certainly not just a repaint job. I've 3D printed a new shorter smokebox with wingplates, using a Brassmasters chimney and Drummond smokebox door. Also had to remove the oil pipes running diagonally down the outside of the boiler, and I'm fitting 3D printed splasher sandboxes.

 

[Edwardian]

2 hours ago, SD85 said:

Can someone please explain to me why it is apparently so hard to backdate a T9 to as built condition. As far as I can tell all one has to do is shorten the smokebox and add wing plates and the cross boiler tube panels.

 

41 minutes ago, Skinnylinny said:

It may be that the author of the first post mixed up their info about the T9 and 700 class - the 700 class is rather harder to backdate as the superheated boilers were raised in pitch by (I think?) 9 inches, so it's not just a case of shortening the smokebox. The fact that the boiler bottom on the Hornby 700 class is cast as part of the chassis as the motor mount makes things even trickier.

I'm in the process of backdating a Hornby 700 class, and it's certainly not just a repaint job. I've 3D printed a new shorter smokebox with wingplates, using a Brassmasters chimney and Drummond smokebox door. Also had to remove the oil pipes running diagonally down the outside of the boiler, and I'm fitting 3D printed splasher sandboxes.

 

 

 

Nile did a back date of the 700.  The difference in boiler pitch meant he had to take out the motor and re-mount it.

 

I would have expected a similar issue with the T9, because the boiler pitch on all but the first superheated rebuild was higher, so, Linny, I'd really love to understand what you have discovered doing yours, which looks lovely, by the way.

 

[Nick Holliday]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

I would have expected a similar issue with the T9, because the boiler pitch on all but the first superheated rebuild was higher, so, Linny, I'd really love to understand what you have discovered doing yours, which looks lovely, by the way.

 

Bradley makes the specific point that the superheated boiler on the T9 was at the same pitch as the original, unlike all the other superheated classes. The two GA drawings in his Wild Swan book on the subject reflect this.

[Ben Alder]

Here is a T9 hacked about a bit as a drawn up but never built HR Peter Drummond design. The fittings are Highland but the basic loco is T9 with cut back smokebox - easily enough done as it is a separate plastic fitting - makes one wonder if this was perhaps an option thought about by Hornby...I must say, to my eyes, it looks far better in its original form.

 

 

[phil_sutters]

9 hours ago, railroadbill said:

 

Unfinished project from a while ago, a GBL T9 in Urie green. The boiler (that now has separate handrails) was sprayed with Precision paints P408 LSWR Urie loco green. This (hopefully!) is the green used from Oct 1917 to Dec 1922 according to HMRS livery register.

 

That's the same as the first pics you linked to, for a late war to grouping loco.  The Kernow ones are definitely a lighter green. When preserved, 120 was painted into a green livery, so perhaps it's supposed to be that?

 

120 seems to have a quite light green livery (on a railtour 24 6 1962). Only picture I can find.

Whether you can gauge anything from this black and white photo taken 1963 I don't know. 

[Steamport Southport]

Correct for 120 as originally preserved in the 1960s. It never previously carried LSWR livery in that condition as it wasn't rebuilt until 1927. The reason it's never carried it since restoration in the 1980s and has only been in BR black and SR olive.

 

120 was a substitute, as the one planned for preservation was 119 which was the SR Royal Train engine, but it was in poor condition.

 

However like City Of Truro it earnt it's keep by working normal trains until finally withdrawn in October 1963.

 

Just need a Caledonian Single for it to push around.

 

 

 

Jason

Edited January 23, 2021 by Steamport Southport

[Edwardian]

39 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

Bradley makes the specific point that the superheated boiler on the T9 was at the same pitch as the original, unlike all the other superheated classes. The two GA drawings in his Wild Swan book on the subject reflect this.

 

Yes, I see that.  I had misremembered. Probably the only Drummond class superheated without an increase in boiler pitch.  That is helpful to bear in mind, I may attempt some back-dating in due course.

[bbishop]

No 119 was actually scrapped about a decade earlier.  Bill

[railroadbill]

 

Steamport Southport suggested a Caledonian single to go with the T9....

 

 

Excursion train from Victoria to Sheffield Park running to the Bluebell railway with preserved Caledonian single and T9.  September 15 1963.

Edited January 25, 2021 by railroadbill