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Andy Hayter

00 rtr Models with potential to be used on pre-grouping layouts

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Below is a list of rtr 00 models that can be used or converted to be used on pre-grouping layouts.

 

The selection of the models listed is a bit arbitrary and includes (mainly) the more modern releases.  This excludes some notable earlier models that might still be useful even if they do not meet the latest levels of detail.  Such models include the Triang - Triang/Hornby singles and their associated coaches (GWR, MR and Caledonian Rly) and the Rocket (which I believe was quite over-scale).

 

I have grouped the models by pre-grouping company.  They are described by the term that is most frequently used and may not reflect the original company's identification.

 

I had considered adding the dates of introduction, but because this would start to make the entries less easy format on one line and because in many cases my knowledge is lacking I have left that out,

 

I have included livery options, since if a degree of rebuilding is necessary, it may well be necessary to do a full repaint, so initial livery may not be helpful/useful.  It should be noted however that BR versions are likely to include a smoke box number plate that will most likely need to be removed.

 

Please feel free to suggest additions (I feel there are more wagons to be added to the list), corrections as well as other comments about the possibility of using such models and what would need to be done to back date them.

 

 

​LSWR

​4-4-2T       Adams Radial       Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

​4-4-2T       Adams Radial       Oxford Rail available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

2-4-0WT   Beattie well tank    Kernow Models/DJM in BR livery

0-4-4T       M7                        Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

4-4-0         T9                         Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

0-6-0T       A1X                      Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries are available

0-6-0 700 Hornby

 

 

​LBSCR

​0-6-0T      E2                         Hornby  available in LBSCR umber  rather crude by modern standards

0-6-0T      A1X /Terrier          Dapol and Hornby  available in LBSCR livery with named towns  other liveries available

0-6-2T      E4                         Bachmann available in LBSCR umber  other liveries are available

0-6-2T      E4                         Bachmann Collectors Club in LBSCR umber and labelled Birchwood - this livery is not authentic for LBSCR and is an as preserved livery.

Brake van                              Hornby in LBSCR livery

 

 

SECR

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR fully lined green  other liveries available

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR simplified lined green  other liveries available

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR WW1 grey other liveries available

2-6-0        N Class                Bachmann available in SECR WW1 grey (as part of a 2 part set)  other liveries are available

0-6-0        A1X /Terrier         Hornby available in SECR lined green

3 wagon set                         Bachmann Collectors Club

 

 

GWR

0-6-0       Dean Goods        Dapol  available in post grouping GWR livery

4-4-0       City Class            Locomotion Models - City of Truro in pre-grouping livery

4-4-0       City Class            Bachmann - in WW1 ochre livery

Hornby 38xx County: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro38xx.html

Hornby 2721: http://www.rmweb.co....Hornby-pannier/

Bachmann 45xx: http://www.gwr.org.u...2/maeport20.jpg (from this page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsmaeport1.html)

Lima 4575: http://www.rmweb.co....-small-prairie/

Hornby/Airfix 14xx to 517: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro517.html

Hornby/Airfix Castle to North Star: http://www.rmweb.co....rth-star-4-4-2/

Hornby/Airfix Castle to Star, though an RTR Star now exists: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prostar.html 

0-4-0 101 Hornby but is missing the outside valve gear.

2-8-0 28xx Hornby in later GWR and BR liveries

2-8-0T 42xx Hornby in later GWR and BR liveries

 

 

 

S&DJR

?

 

 

​MR

​4-4-0       4P                      Hornby available in Midland livery - a bit long in the tooth

4-4-0       4P                      Bachmann available in Midland livery as 1000

4-4-0       4P                      Locomotion Models available in Midland livery as 1000

0-6-0       4F                      Bachmann available in Midland Black - other liveries are available

0-6-0T     1F                      Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries as closed and open cab versions

 

 

​L&YR

​2-4-2T     Radial tank       Locomotion Models - 2 versions of 1008, one with straight "Lancashire    Yorkshire", the other with the arched branding.

2-4-2       Radial tank       Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries

0-4-0ST   Pug                  Dapol available in LMS and BR liveries - older model but I believe fairly accurate

 

​GNR

​0-6-2T      N2                   Hornby two models available in lined GNR green

0-6-0ST   J13                  Hornby  two models available in lined GNR green

0-6-0T      J50                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries

4-4-2        C1                  Locomotion Models available in GNR lined green

4-6-2        A1                  Hornby available in LNER green  - just dips under the pre-grouping wire

2-6-0        K3                   Bachmann in LNER/BR liveries ; requires replacement cab and tender for GNR condition

2-8-0        O2                  Heljan in LNER /BR liveries; requires replacement cab and tender for GNR condition, GNR versions announced but not (yet) released

 

 

GER

0-6-0        J15                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries

tender                             Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries with LNER rebuild D16/3, but suits many later GER classes, B12, D15 and 16, J's 17 to 20

 

 

 

 

NER

0-8-0        Q6                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries.  The locos underwent substantial rebuilding through their lives and the model represents the very late LNER condition. 

0-6-0T      J72                Mainline, then Bachmann in various LNER and BR liveries including the York pilot pseudo NER livery..

 

​GCR

​4-4-0        Director          Locomotion Models available in GCR lined green

4-4-0        Director          Bachmann available in LNER and BR liveries

0-6-0        J11                 Bachmann Collectors Club available in GCR lined black

0-6-0        J11                 Bachmann available in LNER and BR liveries

2-8-0        8K/ROD         Locomotion models in GCR lined black

2-8-0        ROD              Bachmann in LNER and BR liveries

3 wagon set                   Bachmann Collectors Club - one of the three has a return to LNER marking and is not GCR.

 

​LNWR

0-8-0        G2                Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries - Belpaire firebox, so just under the wire - seems to be insufficient room to backdate to round topped firebox 

 

 

​NBR

0-6-0T J83 Hornby in LNER livery

0-4-0ST Y9 Using Hornby Caledonian "pug" as donor

4 plank open wagon    Oxford Rail in NBR grey

3 plank open wagon    Hornby in NBR grey

 

 

Caledonian

0-4-0ST                       Hornby in CR blue other liveries available.  The model is a long way from accurate and a lot of work is needed to get a representative version.

Edited by Andy Hayter
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Thanks for that Andy. This thread could contain the overview list, and then other threads can discuss specific subjects.
 
A few GWR additions:
 
Hornby 38xx County: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro38xx.html
Hornby 2721: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64814-backdating-the-Hornby-pannier/
Bachmann 45xx: http://www.gwr.org.uk/layouts2/maeport20.jpg (from this page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsmaeport1.html)
Lima 4575: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/66066-backdating-the-lima-small-prairie/
Hornby/Airfix 14xx to 517: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro517.html
Hornby/Airfix Castle to North Star: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67914-castle-to-north-star-4-4-2/
Hornby/Airfix Castle to Star, though an RTR Star now exists: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prostar.html
 
And some rather elaborate ones which involves  mixing several items and getting into scratch/kit building territory:
14xx+57xx/8750 to 633: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78444-gwr-633-0-6-0t-from-14xx/
County tank from Airfix loco body/County chassis/Dapol, kit: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/81199-gwr-county-tank/
 
Several of these are from Stefan's wonderful projects described on here a few years ago (Stefan we miss you!). Below is Stefan's take on a backdated Dean Goods, which I think proves just what can be done with projects like these. Link to thread: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/62553-backdating-a-mainlinehornby-dean-goods/
 

 

Edited to add more items.

Edited by Mikkel
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Thanks for that Andy. This thread could contain the overview list, and then other threads can discuss specific subjects.

 

A few GWR additions, the first four are fairly obvious, the fifth one rather elaborate. The sixth as been made redundant by an RTR item.

 

38xx County: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro38xx.html

2721: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/64814-backdating-the-Hornby-pannier/

45xx: http://www.gwr.org.uk/layouts2/maeport20.jpg (from this page: http://www.gwr.org.uk/layoutsmaeport1.html)

14xx to 517: http://www.gwr.org.uk/pro517.html

14xx+57xx/8750 to 633: http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/78444-gwr-633-0-6-0t-from-14xx/

Castle to Star, though an RTR Star now exists: http://www.gwr.org.uk/prostar.html

 

Though, back-dating the RTR Star to pre-WW1 condition might be worth consideration.  Lose the whistle guard, move the top lamp  bracket, add brass beading to splashers and cab, and open up those port-hole windows!  Anything else?

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Though, back-dating the RTR Star to pre-WW1 condition might be worth consideration.  Lose the whistle guard, move the top lamp  bracket, add brass beading to splashers and cab, and open up those port-hole windows!  Anything else?

 

Ah yes, good idea. I've added a bit more to the post above (while you were typing).

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Ah yes, good idea. I've added a bit more to the post above (while you were typing).

 

Superb work on that Dean Goods.

 

I recently unearthed a mixed-bag of pre-Group locos acquired during the Armchair Years.  One was a white-metal loco labelled as an "Armstrong Goods".  It clearly isn't; it's an early lot Dean with round-top fire-box and domeless boiler.  It certainly ran when I bought it, so mechanically it is hopefully just a service away from being a runner.  The paint job is crude, however, and will need stripping back.  My thought would be to convert a Mainline or Oxford Dean to a round-top with the forward mounted dome, and then finish the pair with Indian Red frames.

 

I particularly like these two variants.  They are at the same time obviously Dean Goods, but on the other, quite unlike the centre-domed, belpaire version that really represents our image of the class. 

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Well done Andy a great list just what we needed

 

I'm not sure when it was introduced but does the Bachmann 7F in SDJR livery qualify Also the Backman 3F was that released in SDJR livery though I fear they might be either just to late for pre grouping on in a later post grouping form in the case of the 3F

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Below is a list of rtr 00 models that can be used or converted to be used on pre-grouping layouts.

 

The selection of the models listed is a bit arbitrary and includes (mainly) the more modern releases.  This excludes some notable earlier models that might still be useful even if they do not meet the latest levels of detail.  Such models include the Triang - Triang/Hornby singles and their associated coaches (GWR, MR and Caledonian Rly) and the Rocket (which I believe was quite over-scale).

 

I have grouped the models by pre-grouping company.  They are described by the term that is most frequently used and may not reflect the original company's identification.

 

I had considered adding the dates of introduction, but because this would start to make the entries less easy format on one line and because in many cases my knowledge is lacking I have left that out,

 

I have included livery options, since if a degree of rebuilding is necessary, it may well be necessary to do a full repaint, so initial livery may not be helpful/useful.  It should be noted however that BR versions are likely to include a smoke box number plate that will most likely need to be removed.

 

Please feel free to suggest additions (I feel there are more wagons to be added to the list), corrections as well as other comments about the possibility of using such models and what would need to be done to back date them.

 

 

​LSWR

​4-4-2T       Adams Radial       Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

​4-4-2T       Adams Radial       Oxford Rail available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

2-4-0WT   Beattie well tank    Kernow Models/DJM in BR livery

0-4-4T       M7                        Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

4-4-0         T9                         Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries available

0-6-0T       A1X                      Hornby available in LSWR livery  other liveries are available

 

 

​LBSCR

​0-6-0T      E2                         Hornby  available in LBSCR umber  rather crude by modern standards

0-6-0T      A1X /Terrier          Dapol and Hornby  available in LBSCR livery with named towns  other liveries available

0-6-2T      E4                         Bachmann available in LBSCR umber  other liveries are available

0-6-2T      E4                         Bachmann Collectors Club in LBSCR umber and labelled Birchwood - this livery is not authentic for LBSCR and is an as preserved livery.

Brake van                              Hornby in LBSCR livery

 

 

SECR

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR fully lined green  other liveries available

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR simplified lined green  other liveries available

0-6-0        C Class                Bachmann available in SECR WW1 grey other liveries available

2-6-0        N Class                Bachmann available in SECR WW1 grey (as part of a 2 part set)  other liveries are available

0-6-0        A1X /Terrier         Hornby available in SECR lined green

3 wagon set                         Bachmann Collectors Club

 

 

GWR

0-6-0       Dean Goods        Dapol  available in post grouping GWR livery

4-4-0       City Class            Locomotion Models - City of Truro in pre-grouping livery

4-4-0       City Class            Bachmann - in WW1 ochre livery

 

 

S&DJR

?

 

 

​MR

​4-4-0       4P                      Hornby available in Midland livery - a bit long in the tooth

4-4-0       4P                      Bachmann available in Midland livery as 1000

4-4-0       4P                      Locomotion Models available in Midland livery as 1000

0-6-0       4F                      Bachmann available in Midland Black - other liveries are available

0-6-0T     1F                      Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries as closed and open cab versions

 

 

​L&YR

​2-4-2T     Radial tank       Locomotion Models - 2 versions of 1008, one with straight "Lancashire    Yorkshire", the other with the arched branding.

2-4-2       Radial tank       Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries

0-4-0ST   Pug                  Dapol available in LMS and BR liveries - older model but I believe fairly accurate

 

​GNR

​0-6-2T      N2                   Hornby two models available in lined GNR green

0-6-0ST   J13                  Hornby  two models available in lined GNR green

0-6-0T      J50                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries

4-4-2        C1                  Locomotion Models available in GNR lined green

4-6-2        A1                  Hornby available in LNER green  - just dips under the pre-grouping wire

 

GER

0-6-0        J15                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries

 

 

NER

0-8-0        Q6                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries.  The locos underwent substantial rebuilding through their lives and the model represents the very late LNER condition.  Backdating is likely to involve major rebuilding and may be more trouble than it is worth.

 

​GCR

​4-4-0        Director          Locomotion Models available in GCR lined green

4-4-0        Director          Bachmann available in LNER and BR liveries

0-6-0        J11                 Bachmann Collectors Club available in GCR lined black

0-6-0        J11                 Bachmann available in LNER and BR liveries

2-8-0        8K/ROD         Locomotion models in GCR lined black

2-8-0        ROD              Bachmann in LNER and BR liveries

3 wagon set                   Bachmann Collectors Club - one of the three has a return to LNER marking and is not GCR.

 

​LNWR

0-8-0        G2                Bachmann available in LMS and BR liveries - Belpaire firebox, so just under the wire - seems to be insufficient room to backdate to round topped firebox 

 

 

​NBR

4 plank open wagon    Oxford Rail in NBR grey

3 plank open wagon    Hornby in NBR grey

 

Caledonian

0-4-0ST                       Hornby in CR blue other liveries available.  The model is a long way from accurate and a lot of work is needed to get a representative version.

 

Rather stupidly, I failed to scroll up far enough to spot the list this morning.

 

Very helpful, indeed. 

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Hornby GWR 101 0-4-0T

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/67420-Hornby-class-101-tank-engine-is-real/

 

I think the Bachmann 57xx has potential for backdating too, as it's very close to the Hornby 2721, but with more detail. Being a cheapskate though, my 57xx is staying as it is, and I've got three 2721s to knock about!

Edited by BG John
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NER

0-8-0        Q6                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries.  The locos underwent substantial rebuilding through their lives and the model represents the very late LNER condition.  Backdating is likely to involve major rebuilding and may be more trouble than it is worth.

 

Possibly too pessimistic? JaymzHatstand has converted Hornby's LNER version (which already has the original smokebox door) back to pre-WW2 condition here. Is there much more to it than this?

 

Also, the perennial Mainline/Bachmann J72 should be added to the NER list and is due for reissue with a new mechanism.

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I clicked agree. Partly due to the latter point, but mostly because I believe in backing up my friends by agreeing with them in public when they are right: yes, you are stupid.

;)

 

I rated your post "Thanks", mainly because there is no "Git" button [smiley face]

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I don't know why the Hornby LSWR 700 and T9 classes have been left out.  The first superheated 700 appeared in 1919, and by the end of 1922, six of the T9's had been converted.  The GNR Pacific has been listed, and the first appeared in April 1922. "Just dips under the wire" admittedly.

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I rated your post "Thanks", mainly because there is no "Git" button [smiley face]

I thought that's what "Friendly/Supportive" was used for, in a sarcastic/cynical "poor old git needs some sympathy" sort of way. I get the impression some use it that way on some of my posts, when I'm trying to gain as many "Funnies" as possible :)

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I thought that's what "Friendly/Supportive" was used for, in a sarcastic/cynical "poor old git needs some sympathy" sort of way. I get the impression some use it that way on some of my posts, when I'm trying to gain as many "Funnies" as possible :)

 

John, so young and yet so cynical!

 

Still, a problem one, because it seems to cover every from "sorry to hear that", "chin up!", and "good for you!" through to "that was so not funny, cue tumbleweed and mournfully tolling bell" , and "how I pity you!" 

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The LNWR G2 is a bit of an oddity and has caused me some pondering. According to the LNWR books, the first to be converted to Belpaire fireboxes didn't happen until after the grouping. However, they were put back into traffic still carrying LNWR livery and numberplates.

 

Is that a "pre-grouping" loco or not?

 

Luckily, "Narrow Road" is set in the immediate post grouping period, so that condition and livery was just right for us.

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Thanks for the inputs so far.

 

Where you have pointed out omissions I have added them to the list. This includes Mikkel's links to some quite detailed rebuilds which may go beyond what some modellers will want to do. It does raise an question about where does a cut and shut end and scratch building begin?

 

Flying Pig - my comments about the Q6 were based on Jaymzhatstand's back date only being to the early 30s and I knew that there were a series of major boiler modifications prior to that. However the green bible confirms that these changes had minimal external visual impact, so I modified the comment. As for the J72 - no idea why I left that out, I even have one tucked away somewhere.

 

Nick Holliday - the 700 has been added but the T9 was there from the start (see Edwardian's quote).

 

 

t-b-g - G2s - Wiki has them being built 1921 -1922 so that suggests before grouping - but maybe not amalgamation with the L&YR.

 

There are quite a few items that only just meet the 31st December 1922 cut point, but do we ignore them for that?

 

Anyway everyone. Please feel free to suggest further additions. I consider this to be our list.

 

 

From here we need to look at what work needs to be done to knock some of these into some sort of pre-grouping order - and for that we should probably have separate threads.

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No GWR 28XX,

No GWR 42XX?

 

Keith

 

No "XX"s at all!

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No "XX"s at all!

Oh! Go on then .....X ;)

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Hornbys J83 can join the list for NBR. Could the CR pug join it there as it won't need much more work to be a Y9 than an accurate CR loco.

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How about a thread describing how the Y9 can/could be produced?

There is a dearth of Scottish locomotives in the rtr market and any addition must be welcome.

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Thanks for the inputs so far.

 

Where you have pointed out omissions I have added them to the list. This includes Mikkel's links to some quite detailed rebuilds which may go beyond what some modellers will want to do. It does raise an question about where does a cut and shut end and scratch building begin?

 

Flying Pig - my comments about the Q6 were based on Jaymzhatstand's back date only being to the early 30s and I knew that there were a series of major boiler modifications prior to that. However the green bible confirms that these changes had minimal external visual impact, so I modified the comment. As for the J72 - no idea why I left that out, I even have one tucked away somewhere.

 

Nick Holliday - the 700 has been added but the T9 was there from the start (see Edwardian's quote).

 

 

t-b-g - G2s - Wiki has them being built 1921 -1922 so that suggests before grouping - but maybe not amalgamation with the L&YR.

 

There are quite a few items that only just meet the 31st December 1922 cut point, but do we ignore them for that?

 

Anyway everyone. Please feel free to suggest further additions. I consider this to be our list.

 

 

From here we need to look at what work needs to be done to knock some of these into some sort of pre-grouping order - and for that we should probably have separate threads.

 

The book I read, quite a few years ago now and I can't remember which one, had them as being built with round top fireboxes and then being rebuilt with Belpaire fireboxes (and presumably new boilers) after a few years. As I say, my LNWR interests are fairly minor and I am no expert, so maybe the book was wrong or I missed something relevant.

 

The OP did mention the possible requirement for some modification to RTR locos to earlier condition, so that is probably where this one fits the criteria.

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 Andy, if you wish, two more entries for GNR, one for GER

 

GNR
​0-6-2T      N2                   Hornby two models available in lined GNR green
0-6-0ST   J13                  Hornby  two models available in lined GNR green
0-6-0T      J50                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries

2-6-0        K3                   Bachmann in LNER/BR liveries ; requires replacement cab and tender for GNR condition

2-8-0        O2                  Heljan in LNER /BR liveries; requires replacement cab and tender for GNR condition, GNR versions announced but not (yet) released
4-4-2        C1                  Locomotion Models available in GNR lined green
4-6-2        A1                  Hornby available in LNER green  - just dips under the pre-grouping wire
 

GER
0-6-0        J15                 Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries
tender                             Hornby available in LNER and BR liveries with LNER rebuild D16/3, but suits many later GER classes, B12, D15 and 16, J's 17 to 20

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GNR

4-6-2        A1                  Hornby available in LNER green  - just dips under the pre-grouping wire

 

I have an old Hornby one of these, it was a tender drive but I have converted it to loco drive. I have always wanted to put it into GNR condition.

 

Does anyone know what needs doing to make it right? I'm not worried about doing major surgery to a loco, as can be seen by my conversion of a Tri-ang M7 into an LBSCR Gladstone class.

 

Gary

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My layout in not set in pre-grouping days, but this is a fascinating topic. Having seen some 'hand wringing' on the Hornby SECR H class thread about the lack of locomotives that can be backdated to pre-grouping times, the list Andy has given us above is much longer, and covers many more companies, than I expected. Wonderful!

 

I'm sure many of us are grateful to Andy for bringing this together - thank you so much.

 

Presumably the H class should go in there too - something like

SECR

0-4-4T H Class Hornby 2017 model announced Sept 2016 in SECR lined green, SR olive green and BR early emblem

 

John

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My layout in not set in pre-grouping days, but this is a fascinating topic. Having seen some 'hand wringing' on the Hornby SECR H class thread about the lack of locomotives that can be backdated to pre-grouping times, the list Andy has given us above is much longer, and covers many more companies, than I expected. Wonderful!

 

I'm sure many of us are grateful to Andy for bringing this together - thank you so much.

 

Presumably the H class should go in there too - something like

SECR

0-4-4T H Class Hornby 2017 model announced Sept 2016 in SECR lined green, SR olive green and BR early emblem

 

John

 

Indeed.  Imagine the hand wringing if they were all released with exclusively pre-Grouping tooling and had to be converted for use in the Transition Era!

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