Churminster & Stowe Magna, Southern Railway

[Tony Teague]

1 hour ago, westerhamstation said:

Hi Tony, the  Hastings line to London ran through the North Downs with some very steep sided chalk cuttings.

 

All the Best Adrian.

 

 

Very helpful Adrian, thanks.

 

I wonder how much greenery it had on it during the '40's?

[Michael Edge]

A lot less greenery back then - it's an impressive cutting though.

[Tony Teague]

I have found one or two images within the Middleton Press volume "Southern Main Lines: Orpington to Tonbridge" that show this cutting and as Mike says, there was a lot less greenery in the days of steam; something that I shall need to emulate.

[westerhamstation]

Hi Tony, as I remember the line from the 50's it certainly had far less greenery with the chalk face being a grubby white with only the tops of any outcrops or valleys in the chalk having any covering of greenery with the odd scattering of undergrowth nearer the base. 

All the best Adrian. 

 

[Mick Bonwick]

14 hours ago, Tony Teague said:

something that I shall need to emulate.

 

We shall see.

 

[Tony Teague]

5 minutes ago, Mick Bonwick said:

 

We shall see.

 

 

Cynic!

[Tony Teague]

Slow but sure - a little further progress with the cutting, whic is, as Mike Edge suggested, almost exactly 60' deep:

 

 

The whole length covered in card strips and ready for bandaging....

 

 

...and then suddenly, looking a bit more like a chalk cutting - but as you can see, and as perhaps predicted, I ran out of plaster bandage!

 

 

The whole thing will need a second bandage skin, before it then gets a thicker plaster covering and some carving, moulding, decorating & painting to make it look a bit more like a cliff face.

 

I have ordered more supplies and once the second layer is applied I may then wait for my artistic friend Mike Gascoigne to return (when permitted), as he finished off both the quarry side and the chalk face of the cutting north of Stowe Magna; he is likely to make a better job of it than I!

 

 

Churminster Quarry

 

 

Tunnel approach.

 

In the meantime there is of course, plenty to be getting on with!

 

Tony

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tony Teague

[Michael Edge]

The 60ft reference was only one example but the local sandstone around Liverpool is a lot more stable than your Southern chalk and there are others which are considerably deeper.

[St Enodoc]

Here's a local sandstone cutting that might give you some ideas:

 

https://www.visitsydneyaustralia.com.au/images/big-hill-cutting.jpg

[Tony Teague]

45 minutes ago, St Enodoc said:

Here's a local sandstone cutting that might give you some ideas:

 

https://www.visitsydneyaustralia.com.au/images/big-hill-cutting.jpg

 

Wow, that's steep - and narrow!

[Tony Teague]

Another good example of a deep cutting though chalk is of course Tring on the WCML:

https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1274201

 

[Tony Teague]

After a couple of days 'plastering' I needed to get back to the trains!

 

On a separate thread, @Jack P recently raised the topic of locos that visited the SR from other regions / companies; we had covered it here some time ago, but without specific sightings being reported. These were certainly the exception rather than the rule, however @pete_mcfarlane was able to make reference to a published image of an LMS / ex-LNWR Webb Coal tank on a parcels train at East Croydon in 1937!

 

Unable to resist.....I immediately ordered a Bachmann Coal Tank from Rails, and it arrived within just a couple of days:

 

 

Here it is in 'out of the box' condition, sitting in platform 4 at Stowe Magna with just a couple of LMS sove 'R' vans behind it.

 

 

Identifying what was actually behind the loco in the original image has so far proved impossible, but it looks like a couple of coaches and a short van, or a coach, a bogie van, and then a short van - so I will try to do better, but the Coal Tank is a nice looking loco (despite coming from beyond SR boundaries) and it is nice to have actual evidence of a visit. The loco is now in the weathering queue.

 

Meanwhile I have also been doing some research to support @Arun Sharma's work on the forthcoming C3 loco, and in particular I was looking at tenders, which shall we say, moved around a bit and so there is no obvious solution. Nevertheless the C2X tenders look similar, whilst at various times, some C2X's had been paired with C3 tenders, so I got out my C2X models for comparison:

 

 

What was immediately obvious was that I had somehow ended up with two locos with the same number!

 

Must have been asleep....

 

What maybe less obvious but became clear is that not one of these tenders appears to be right for either a C2X or a C3; that on No.2525 is the right length and nearest, but those on both locos No.2540 are over long by about a scale foot.

 

At this stage I will probably leave alone, but clearly I wasn't paying attention in the past, or perhaps I was just ignorant and assumed that kits were always accurate!

 

The single domed loco at the front has since been re-numbered as No.2546, since this never carried a double-dome boiler.

 

All three have now joined the weathering queue!

 

Tony

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tony Teague

[Arun Sharma]

My understanding from the RCTS volume and Gerry Bixley's articles in Southern Way is, that post-1930, the most likely tender to be found behind a C3 would have been an ex-B2X type as the C3s had been displaced from most of their long distance jobs by then.

I will have a look at designing one of these with suitably filled in coal rails etc.,

Pro tem, here are most of the castings [less in-cab pipework and smokebox door] for the 4mm version of the C3. Once that's completed, I'll start on the 'proper' 7mm version.

 

 

Not withstanding the ex-LNWR stuff passing through on Southern lines, there was of course also the ex-GE J68/9s and J15s passing southwards under the Thames and down the East London Line........

Edited January 12, 2021 by Arun Sharma

[Tony Teague]

10 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

My understanding from the RCTS volume and Gerry Bixley's articles in Southern Way is, that post-1930, the most likely tender to be found behind a C3 would have been an ex-B2X type as the C3s had been displaced from most of their long distance jobs by then.

I will have a look at designing one of these with suitably filled in coal rails etc.,

Pro tem, here are most of the castings [less in-cab pipework and smokebox door] for the 4mm version of the C3. Once that's completed, I'll start on the 'proper' 7mm version.

Not withstanding the ex-LNWR stuff passing through on Southern lines, there was of course also the ex-GE J68/9s and J15s passing southwards under the Thames and down the East London Line........

 

Arun

 

Thanks for being prepared to show the C3 casting masters - what can you possibly mean "the 'proper' 7mm version" - heresy!

 

Looks like I may have a spare C2X tender kit, although given how bad my existing C2X tenders are, perhaps building what is the new "NuCast Partners" version might be an improvement - it is at least the correct length; however, I shall wait until you have confirmed that a B2X tender is on the cards.

 

I'm aware of the traffic on the East London Line, and these are certainly worthy of consideration for addition to the fleet, however, what I think that I and Jack P were looking for were examples where the 'foreign' locos travelled a little further into SR territory; the ex-GE locos did not seem to venture much further than their owning Companies coal depots within South London SR territory - unless of course you know differently!

 

Tony

[Arun Sharma]

I've had a look in Jim Russell's tome and ten B2X were fitted with C3 3112gal tenders - so presumably all 10 C3s were fitted with ex-B2X tenders once they were confined to short distance goods work. Jim Russell's book does have side views of the B2X tender with photographs so that is do-able - though I may need to borrow a C2X tender from Stowe Magna at some point for general guidance on how the LBSCR went about its designs!

Edited January 13, 2021 by Arun Sharma

[Tony Teague]

2 hours ago, Arun Sharma said:

I've had a look in Jim Russell's tome and ten B2X were fitted with C3 3112gal tenders - so presumably all 10 C3s were fitted with ex-B2X tenders once they were confined to short distance goods work. Jim Russell's book does have side views of the B2X tender with photographs so that is do-able - though I may need to borrow a C2X tender from Stowe Magna at some point for general guidance on how the LBSCR went about its designs!

 

Arun

 

No problem, whenevre we are able.

In the meantime I have sent you a drawing of the C2X and C3 tenders that appeared in Southern Way a while back - can't post it here as it is copyright.

Hope it helps

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

Back in my last update I was looking at an unusual LMS 'intruder' that ran from Euston to East Croydon, and whilst considering what I might put behind the loco I took a look at my "Sunny South Express".

 

This originally ran from Liverpool Lime Street and Manchester through to Hastings, with portions to and from other south coast holiday destinations; later the Lime Street start was dropped and the train disappeared completely when WW2 started, not returning until the '80's (and then not in the same format).

 

I started to put together a Sunny South rake several years ago and I acquired some Dapol LMS kits to make up the composites, but at that point my efforts stalled and what I did have was left to run as a very short LMS rake indeed.

 

 

To my 'Southern eyes', these Dapol kits make up into quite reasonable representations of the LMS Period 3 corridor composites and so far as I could see there are no RTR versions available, so when I discovered on this forum that Larry Goddard (alias Coachman) had even made use of the kits I felt that they couldn't really be that bad!

 

So over the last two days I finally put the carriages together; they must be the cheapest (about £12-£13) and fastest to build coach kits that exist - about 30 minutes each, even allowing for a few tweaks! I also acquired a couple more brake thirds to complete the rake.

 

 

When launched, one train was provided by the LMS and one by the Southern, but later both rakes were LMS originated, and during the era that I model, the train was hauled all the way south of Rugby by an ex-LB&SCR I3 loco.

 

 

My rake represents the up train, for which the 1939 formation as leaving Hastings was:

Liverpool - BTK / CK

Manchester - TK / CK / RC / BTK

Birmingham - BTK / CK / TK

Nottingham - BCK

 

I don't have a BCK, so I have dropped the Nottingham portion leaving me with a reasonably good looking 9 coach rake; I did have a corridor 1st running in this rake - but that will now have to go into the "disposal" pile.

 

 

However, there is a problem, in that the I3 models that I have (OO Works and SEF) , being four-coupled, are struggling to get this train moving, so whilst I will check that every axle is free-running, and that there is as much weight over the loco driving wheels as possible, it could be that in the end, this has to be delegated to a six-coupled loco such as an Arthur, Nelson or spam can!

 

(Another train to the weathering queue!)

 

Tony

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tony Teague

[Tony Teague]

Alex

Thanks

I should have said that aside from the three Dapol CK's all of the other coaches in the set are RTR Hornby, and so far, all I have done to them is add corridor connections (Modellers Mecca), because I prefer not to see gaps between the coaches!

Tony

[Tony Teague]

As an after thought, it is perhaps worth saying that there seems some doubt as to whether the Sunny South carried carriage roof boards - as a named express one might have expected that it would, and there are some hints in a very few pictures, but most have no roofboards that I can detect.

 

Conversely - and perhaps because it had multiple destinations at either end of its journey, the carriages do seem to show side destination boards, for Liverpool, Manchester etc.

 

If I can find better evidence I shall have to add these.

 

Tony

[Tony Teague]

 

Given the problems that I3 no.2023 had experienced in getting & keeping the Sunny South Express moving, I decided that it was time for a test of 'pulling power'!

 

 

I summoned all four of the I3 locomotives in the fleet to Stowe Magna Yard and got each in turn to make a test run.

 

 

 

The two locos in plain black livery, nos.2030 and 2087 are both OO Works locos, as is no.2023 and so unsurprisingly they exhibited the same characteristics, despite these being pretty heavy locos with quite a lot of metal in their construction (not sure why the side tank of no.2087 looks 'glittery' - perhaps condensation from cold water in the tank?).

 

 

So I turned to no.2091, which is an SE Finecast loco and which, with a white metal superstructure, is certainly heavier than the other three - but disappointingly, the result was just the same!

 

 

I then added some lead inside no.2091's body shell (there is no room inside the OO Works model) and tried again - no change!

 

The train itself appears to be very free running, all coaches are plastic, and all but the three Dapol ones have pin-pount brass bearings, but the problem seems to appear mainly when the train is pulled through some reverse curves as it comes out of the fiddle yard.

 

This is not the longest, and certainly not the heaviest train running on Stowe Magna & Churinster, but it probably is the longest and heaviest for which I am trying to use a four-coupled loco, so before I give up on the I3's and bring in a six-coupled engine, I will try upgrading the bearings on the Dapol coach bogies, but I am not optimistic.

 

Tony

 

Edited November 23, 2022 by Tony Teague

[thegreenhowards]

Tony,

 

30mins per coach is very impressive. Does that include painting or do they come ready painted?

 

As for pulling power, my Atlantic tender locos will just about pull 9 RTR coaches so it should be possible. Is it possible that the bogies are stiff in turning thus causing increased friction in the reverse curves. Why not try an I3 with 9 Hornby coaches and see if it can manage that? That would identify whether it’s the loco or coaches at fault.
 

Andy

[Tony Teague]

58 minutes ago, thegreenhowards said:

Tony,

 

30mins per coach is very impressive. Does that include painting or do they come ready painted?

 

As for pulling power, my Atlantic tender locos will just about pull 9 RTR coaches so it should be possible. Is it possible that the bogies are stiff in turning thus causing increased friction in the reverse curves. Why not try an I3 with 9 Hornby coaches and see if it can manage that? That would identify whether it’s the loco or coaches at fault.
 

Andy

 

Andy

 

Thanks - good idea re: the Hornby coaches and will give it a go.

 

The Dapol coach sides are externally painted and lettered, the only addition be a transfer for the LMS logo in the centre, plus you have to paint the ends black - they come crimson, and the roof after fixing the ventilators.

 

My 30 mins didn't include the roof and ventilators as I had forgotten that I did these tears ago when I bought them, so my roofs were ready fitted (with ventilators) and ready painted; painting the interior is optional - I only painted the compartment and corridor walls but left the seats as you would struggle to see them.

 

If these coaches have a weakness it is the glazing which may be a little thick for modern standards, but for me they look just fine; I have probably got a spare BTK kit if you want to try one (let me know), because after I had acquired these, the much better Hornby BTK was issued and so I bought those.

 

The majority of my 30 minutes was taken bu$$ering about with the plastic corridor ends which I cut right back and fitted Modellers Mecca flexible ones into them - left alone they stick out too far to add the flexible ones onto them, but they didn't look right omitted either!

 

Tony

[jamespetts]

Interesting - how many carriages can the I3s pull?

[Mick Bonwick]

4 minutes ago, jamespetts said:

Interesting - how many carriages can the I3s pull?

 

Not enough.

[thegreenhowards]

46 minutes ago, Tony Teague said:

 

Andy

 

Thanks - good idea re: the Hornby coaches and will give it a go.

 

The Dapol coach sides are externally painted and lettered, the only addition be a transfer for the LMS logo in the centre, plus you have to paint the ends black - they come crimson, and the roof after fixing the ventilators.

 

My 30 mins didn't include the roof and ventilators as I had forgotten that I did these tears ago when I bought them, so my roofs were ready fitted (with ventilators) and ready painted; painting the interior is optional - I only painted the compartment and corridor walls but left the seats as you would struggle to see them.

 

If these coaches have a weakness it is the glazing which may be a little thick for modern standards, but for me they look just fine; I have probably got a spare BTK kit if you want to try one (let me know), because after I had acquired these, the much better Hornby BTK was issued and so I bought those.

 

Wrong company and era for me, but thanks for the offer.

Quote

 

The majority of my 30 minutes was taken bu$$ering about with the plastic corridor ends which I cut right back and fitted Modellers Mecca flexible ones into them - left alone they stick out too far to add the flexible ones onto them, but they didn't look right omitted either!

 

Tony

I often wonder about that when I’m fitting corridor connectors to my Kirk coaches. I wonder whether we, as modellers, have got conditioned to seeing a bit of plastic sticking out and therefore it looks strange when it’s not there. Surely the bit of plastic is just representing a folded up corridor connector? I now stick my ‘Fair Price Models’ (1/5 the price of modellers Mecca) corridor connectors straight into the end and I think it looks OK.

Certainly when they’re coupled up its hard to notice.

 

 

Someone please shout if I’m making a schoolboy error!

 

Andy