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Revolution Mike B
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Does anyone know what the impedance is for iPhone 4/5/6 speakers?

 

I put two in series on one of Bif's Loksound V4 and on one of my Oliva's Loksound chips and they didn't sound very loud. They're better in parallel but I don't wan't to blow the chip.

 

I'd check it myself but I don't have a meter to hand.

 

Cheers 

Mike

Edited by scoobyra
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Thanks Dave

 

So excuse me for being thick, does that mean I could run four of them in series to get the ohms down to somewhere between 4 - 8?

 

Cheers

Mike

 

Four in series would be 23.5 x 4 = 94 ohm

Four in parallel would be 23.5/4 = 5.875 ohm

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited by newbryford
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Four in series would be 23.5 x 4 = 94 ohm

Four in parallel would be 23.5/4 = 5.875 ohm

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Thanks Mick

 

The ones in there already are in series - 4ohm standard speakers that come with the loksound chip and are really loud. I tried the iphone speakers in series and they were very quiet (I guess from what you've said that would be approx 47ohm!!!). When I ran them in parallel they were louder but not as good as I thought (and presumably around 12 ohm which is still too high)

 

Cheers

Mike

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Thanks Mick

 

The ones in there already are in series - 4ohm standard speakers that come with the loksound chip and are really loud. I tried the iphone speakers in series and they were very quiet (I guess from what you've said that would be approx 47ohm!!!). When I ran them in parallel they were louder but not as good as I thought (and presumably around 12 ohm which is still too high)

 

Cheers

Mike

 

Parallel calculations are (1/R1) + (1/R2) + (1/R3) + .....(1/Rx) = 1/Rtotal

 

In series, R1 + R2 + R3.... + Rx = Rtotal

 

Cheers,

Mick

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Why not buy proper sugar-cubes, from Charlie, Digitrains, or YouCoos, don't cost a fortune, and properly placed sound pretty good!

And they'll be the right impedance!

 

Oops, sorry you must be from Yorkshire!

 

Alan.

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Why not buy proper sugar-cubes, from Charlie, Digitrains, or YouCoos, don't cost a fortune, and properly placed sound pretty good!

And they'll be the right impedance!

 

Oops, sorry you must be from Yorkshire!

 

Alan.

 

Because they don't have the same frequency response. 

 

I'm trying to make a model sound like the real thing, which in reality, is probably near on impossible......having said that, I believe Bif is having a good try with his new range of speakers!

 

Cheers

Mike

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Actually you are dead right there, Bif, or more correctly Charlie, (hard to believe, he is from Yorkshire !) , have produced a mind-bending sound from their new range of 'Earth mover' speakers.

 

I heard a brilliant demo of Bif / Steve Brammer's new sounds at Charlie's stand at the Wigan show, last weekend, and the dynamic range coming from their recent fleet of 00 gauge locos is just amazing!

 

Highly recommend a visit to any show where the Legoman Trio (quartet?) are performing.

 

Regards,

 

Alan.

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I had chance for a brief listen to an iPhone 6s speaker recently and it was very good, possibly a bit better than a sugar cube but with a flatter profile (perhaps 2.5mm deep?). It would definitely have uses in some locos where a normal sugar cube wouldn't fit.

 

The latest demo model of ours to have the EM treatment is the tamper (the kit built one from Jonathan Buckie). I fitted an EM2 this afternoon and the transformation is nothing short of astonishing. It previously had a bass reflex and was always slightly underwhelming in comparison to the sounds I knew were in there. Not any more!

 

We'll be at Peterborough at the weekend with a number of EM1 and EM2 fitted locos (the new 45, Paxman HST pair, SLW 24 all with EM2's on Saturday & Sunday plus EM2 fitted 25 and 37 on Sunday).

 

Btw, Charlie and Bif are not the same person. I am definitely not from Yorkshire!

 

Bif

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I had chance for a brief listen to an iPhone 6s speaker recently and it was very good, possibly a bit better than a sugar cube but with a flatter profile (perhaps 2.5mm deep?). It would definitely have uses in some locos where a normal sugar cube wouldn't fit.

 

The latest demo model of ours to have the EM treatment is the tamper (the kit built one from Jonathan Buckie). I fitted an EM2 this afternoon and the transformation is nothing short of astonishing. It previously had a bass reflex and was always slightly underwhelming in comparison to the sounds I knew were in there. Not any more!

 

We'll be at Peterborough at the weekend with a number of EM1 and EM2 fitted locos (the new 45, Paxman HST pair, SLW 24 all with EM2's on Saturday & Sunday plus EM2 fitted 25 and 37 on Sunday).

 

Btw, Charlie and Bif are not the same person. I am definitely not from Yorkshire!

 

Bif

 

You can spot the difference:   Smiling & Hair!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 2 weeks later...

Ermmmmmmmmmmmmmmm..... How do you scale sound???

 

Simplistically if you are modelling in 00 gauge, your model will be a scale distance. Let us say that your track is 2 metres away which scales up to 500 feet.

 

In 0 gauge that will scale up to 250 feet and the sound needs to reflect that although the actual distance from you is exactly the same.

 

Same applies to an HST model with power cars front and rear and sound decoders for both. You will need a lot of cars between the power cars to get that effect of motor 1 passing some seconds before motor two and your ear will need to be quite close to the passing train to get the best effect.

 

It is also near impossible to get the correct doppler effect that one does standing on a mainline platform as a non stop train goes through.

 

Lastly it is near impossible to get the effect of a heavy train rumbling past as the speakers cannot reproduce the bass frequencies.

 

Things are improving as we speak but it is mainly about speakers rather than sound chips even now.

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Simplistically if you are modelling in 00 gauge, your model will be a scale distance. Let us say that your track is 2 metres away which scales up to 500 feet.

 

In 0 gauge that will scale up to 250 feet and the sound needs to reflect that although the actual distance from you is exactly the same.

 

Same applies to an HST model with power cars front and rear and sound decoders for both. You will need a lot of cars between the power cars to get that effect of motor 1 passing some seconds before motor two and your ear will need to be quite close to the passing train to get the best effect.

 

It is also near impossible to get the correct doppler effect that one does standing on a mainline platform as a non stop train goes through.

 

Lastly it is near impossible to get the effect of a heavy train rumbling past as the speakers cannot reproduce the bass frequencies.

 

Things are improving as we speak but it is mainly about speakers rather than sound chips even now.

 

Interesting you should say this as I've had an idea whereby I have the power cars at an average volume and then have another speaker under the baseboard with a recording of an HST passing through. This should be fairly easy to do with an iPad to trigger the sounds. Ok, it's going to be far from perfect but I'd like to see what effect it would produce.

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Simplistically if you are modelling in 00 gauge, your model will be a scale distance. Let us say that your track is 2 metres away which scales up to 500 feet.

 

In 0 gauge that will scale up to 250 feet and the sound needs to reflect that although the actual distance from you is exactly the same.

 

Same applies to an HST model with power cars front and rear and sound decoders for both. You will need a lot of cars between the power cars to get that effect of motor 1 passing some seconds before motor two and your ear will need to be quite close to the passing train to get the best effect.

 

It is also near impossible to get the correct doppler effect that one does standing on a mainline platform as a non stop train goes through.

 

Lastly it is near impossible to get the effect of a heavy train rumbling past as the speakers cannot reproduce the bass frequencies.

 

Things are improving as we speak but it is mainly about speakers rather than sound chips even now.

 

 

 

Those are the main reasons you cannot indeed "Scale" sound. Add to the list that station environments colour sound. All that concrete and glass in the real world add reflections and phasing components that change the sound heard by those close to the source or away from it. Doppler shift is by far the biggest problem to authentic sounding............ sound. As without some fairly clever audio processing and model loco placement information it is going to be massively difficult to replicate even approximately. Even just an open scene where the God like position of the viewer above the model represents a scale distance of some one hundred meters or more depending on gauge, is compromised by the fact, that certainly to my knowledge. Most sound sample recordings are derived at close distances to the subject locomotive. On open ground at average temperatures, the high frequency component within a particular sound attenuates quicker than the low frequency component. The most practical demonstration of this is the sound of thunder. At a distance from the original lightning strike all that is really heard is the low end rumble. This is because the low end frequencies generated have sufficient energy to travel the distance. Its only close too that we hear the real crack from the lightening strike. At this close distance the shorter high frequency component still has enough energy to reach our ears.

 

I have to say that it amuses me tremendously to watch an enthusiastic group of modellers at an exhibition. Crowd around a model loco, assessing it's dimensions and physical accuracy with near rocket scientist zeal, to then watch them go as googly as a bunch of teenage girls when confronted by their favourite pop star, as soon as it's placed upon attack and creates a noise that would be best described as adequate.

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Hi

 

Has anybody fitted an i-phone speaker to a loksound v3.5 yet? I have tried the i-phone six. It sounded fantastic for all of ten seconds and then became very distorted. So can anybody recommend a phone speaker (if any) to use for the v3.5?

 

Thanks

Stephen

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Hi

 

Has anybody fitted an i-phone speaker to a loksound v3.5 yet? I have tried the i-phone six. It sounded fantastic for all of ten seconds and then became very distorted. So can anybody recommend a phone speaker (if any) to use for the v3.5?

 

Thanks

Stephen

Loksound v3.5 needs a 100ohm speaker and the iPhone 6 is nowhere near that. You could always have several (4 or 5 if the quoted impedance above is correct) in series.

 

Roy

Edited by Roy Langridge
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Nile; I would love for you to hear some of our EM fitted locos in a quiet environment and then try and tell me the sound is 'adequate' :-) Everything you say about scaling sound is true, as is everything that Lady Ava said about the HST, but our speaker experiments have pushed the boundaries far beyond what people have come to expect from DCC sound, particularly with respect to bass performance. I have locos that I listen to now and say 'yes, that's what I've been trying to achieve for the last ten years or so'. The laws of physics (probably) prevent us from achieving that with all of them but as in all fields of human endeavour, experimentation moves us forward all the time.

 

Stephen; I think you will struggle to find an 'iphone' style speaker of 100 ohm impedance to suit the v3.5, the vast majority will be much lower. They will overload the v3.5 which as you found, very quickly overheats and distorts. You were lucky you didn't blow the chip. Your best bet would be to try 4 or 5 in series to bring the impedance up to the right level, I'm pretty sure that would work and be achievable space wise in most locos.

 

Bif

Edited by legomanbiffo
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Nile; I would love for you to hear some of our EM fitted locos in a quiet environment and then try and tell me the sound is 'adequate' :-) Everything you say about scaling sound is true, as is everything that Lady Ava said about the HST, but our speaker experiments have pushed the boundaries far beyond what people have come to expect from DCC sound, particularly with respect to bass performance. I have locos that I listen to now and say 'yes, that's what I've been trying to achieve for the last ten years or so'. The laws of physics (probably) prevent us from achieving that with all of them but as in all fields of human endeavour, experimentation moves us forward all the time.

 

 

Bif

 

 

But that is the thing. The best that can be achieved by loading non-volatile RAM with by todays standards at least, comparatively small memory volumes. Controlled by a system that offers very little in the way of dynamic tonal adjustment and multi-timbral working. Is at the very best going to be adequate.

 

I by trade am an audio engineer. I'm fortunate that my realm of experience encompasses live events both in the UK and all over the world and more relevantly in relation to this particular subject, have various credits for film and television production. Personally I have probably spent hundreds of hours recording and sourcing sound effects for movie projects and spent a small portion of my career showing other audio engineers how to get the most out of top line audio post production consoles, when compiling and assembling soundtracks for various surround sound formats. Now I'm not saying I am the font of all knowledge when it comes to sound, far from it. I have colleagues who could make your head spin with the sort of audio knowledge that sits between their ears.

 

However the simple fact is, that the current DCC sound offering with the best of whatever speakers are available, is both flawed and limited when it comes to creating an accurate soundscape for a modelled environment. To suggest otherwise is just being excessively partisan. DCC sound is just an entertainment an embellishment to what might otherwise be a highly accurate model, but is in itself not representative of the accuracy that the model itself might achieve.

 

So if it floats your boat.... Then great!!! and more power to you. But lets not overlook what DCC sound isn't.

 

I am sure there are plenty of people here who are thoroughly delighted with their sound fitted loco's and feel that whatever their investment made it has been a worthwhile one. But you cannot scale sound and DCC as system is not capable of creating the sort of soundscape that may "potentially" be created by other control systems in the future.

 

As an aside. A couple of years back I watched with a degree of professional interest as a group of guys were waltzing around some steam loco down at the Severn Valley Railway at Bridgnorth. Well my curiosity got the better of me and I managed to introduce myself to the ring leader. He proudly informed me that he was part of growing business providing high quality sound samples for the the model railway market.  From a professional point of view I found their equipment set up somewhat poor (recording to MP3!!!!!!!!!) with a rather miss mash collection of dynamic microphones used to source the audio. However he was kind enough to play some of their days recordings for me to listen too. To use a well known phrase. It was time to get my coat.

Edited by Nile_Griffith
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Four in series would be 23.5 x 4 = 94 ohm

Four in parallel would be 23.5/4 = 5.875 ohm

 

Cheers,

Mick

 

Just so I'm clear, am I right in thinking that impedance of the speaker can't be less than the chip is designed for, but can be more?

 

For example, I've seen some Youtube clips of a Loksound v4 being used (seemingly happily) with a single iPhone speaker which I now know to be rated at 23.5 ohms. Yet I thought these needed a 4 ohm speaker? Or is it a minimum of 4 ohms? Anything greater than 4 ohms I presume will mean the volume is reduced? Hence the advice above about parallel vs serial wiring of multiple speakers.

 

Or am I completely wrong :scratchhead:

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But that is the thing. The best that can be achieved by loading non-volatile RAM with by todays standards at least, comparatively small memory volumes. Controlled by a system that offers very little in the way of dynamic tonal adjustment and multi-timbral working. Is at the very best going to be adequate.

 

I by trade am an audio engineer. I'm fortunate that my realm of experience encompasses live events both in the UK and all over the world and more relevantly in relation to this particular subject, have various credits for film and television production. Personally I have probably spent hundreds of hours recording and sourcing sound effects for movie projects and spent a small portion of my career showing other audio engineers how to get the most out of top line audio post production consoles, when compiling and assembling soundtracks for various surround sound formats. Now I'm not saying I am the font of all knowledge when it comes to sound, far from it. I have colleagues who could make your head spin with the sort of audio knowledge that sits between their ears.

 

However the simple fact is, that the current DCC sound offering with the best of whatever speakers are available, is both flawed and limited when it comes to creating an accurate soundscape for a modelled environment. To suggest otherwise is just being excessively partisan. DCC sound is just an entertainment an embellishment to what might otherwise be a highly accurate model, but is in itself not representative of the accuracy that the model itself might achieve.

 

So if it floats your boat.... Then great!!! and more power to you. But lets not overlook what DCC sound isn't.

 

I am sure there are plenty of people here who are thoroughly delighted with their sound fitted loco's and feel that whatever their investment made it has been a worthwhile one. But you cannot scale sound and DCC as system is not capable of creating the sort of soundscape that may "potentially" be created by other control systems in the future.

 

As an aside. A couple of years back I watched with a degree of professional interest as a group of guys were waltzing around some steam loco down at the Severn Valley Railway at Bridgnorth. Well my curiosity got the better of me and I managed to introduce myself to the ring leader. He proudly informed me that he was part of growing business providing high quality sound samples for the the model railway market.  From a professional point of view I found their equipment set up somewhat poor (recording to MP3!!!!!!!!!) with a rather miss mash collection of dynamic microphones used to source the audio. However he was kind enough to play some of their days recordings for me to listen too. To use a well known phrase. It was time to get my coat.

Nice CV. You are aware we are talking about toy trains, aren't you?

 

In a sense, any recording you might come up with could be described as "adequate" when compared with what might be available in the future.

 

As far as the work being done by Charlie's team, it's the best that we currently have yet they still push the boundaries.

 

To suggest that that a toy train isn't real life is almost stating the obvious.

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Mmmmmmmmm.

 

This 'problem' may be of my making and I apologise.

 

In reply to post #1 (in Post#2) I gave the impedance as 23.5 Ohms and indeed this is correct but I have now found that two of the connections give a value of 8 Ohms.

 

Also, I have now obtained an iPhone 6S PLUS Speaker and this is 8 Ohms. The original measurement was for an iPhone 4 speaker.

 

Also, another post has made mention of getting the 'loudspeaker' one and not the 'earpiece' one. A lot of eBay sellers dont mention this. I'll add a couple of photos later.

 

 

I'm awaiting an iPhone 6 speaker before starting testing.

 

Dave.

Edited by dasatcopthorne
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Mmmmmmmmm.

 

This 'problem' may be of my making and I apologise.

 

In reply to post #1 (in Post#2) I gave the impedance as 23.5 Ohms and indeed this is correct but I have now found that two of the connections give a value of 8 Ohms.

 

Also, I have now obtained an iPhone 6S PLUS Speaker and this is 8 Ohms. The original measurement was for an iPhone 4 speaker.

 

Also, another post has made mention of getting the 'loudspeaker' one and not the 'earpiece' one. A lot of eBay sellers dont mention this. I'll add a couple of photos later.

 

 

I'm awaiting an iPhone 6 speaker before starting testing.

 

Dave.

I suppose he the best advice is to check the impedance (internal resistance) before you risk your expensive decoder.

 

I've just bought 5 from ebay having been advised that they work with ESU v4 but I'll tread carefully.

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Just so I'm clear, am I right in thinking that impedance of the speaker can't be less than the chip is designed for, but can be more?

 

For example, I've seen some Youtube clips of a Loksound v4 being used (seemingly happily) with a single iPhone speaker which I now know to be rated at 23.5 ohms. Yet I thought these needed a 4 ohm speaker? Or is it a minimum of 4 ohms? Anything greater than 4 ohms I presume will mean the volume is reduced? Hence the advice above about parallel vs serial wiring of multiple speakers.

 

Or am I completely wrong :scratchhead:

Good question I would like to understand it too. I had a look around and found this site which might help.

http://www.sbs4dcc.com/tutorialstipstricks/wiringmultispeakers.html

Cheers

 

Chris

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