bescotbeast Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 All speakers should be air tight, the speaker in the 81-85 clip is totally unsealed, not a good start for comparisons!! The I phone is sealed I believe. Charlie Charlie, my video is aimed at the average modeller, who buys a sound chip to instal in his/her's favourite loco. All I want to do is show people a quick and cheap route to some better sounds. I do wonder at the above reply, and what was the motive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 It was this very video that inspired me to have a go and has given me a most enjoyable Chrimbo project as a result - thanks Charlie I might also add, that the above loco (Bachmann Class 85) isn't mine but a friends, who you may find on this forum, I think it quantifies my reply above in that the average modeller just plonks the chip and speaker in place. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) As an owner of quite a large number of DCC sound fitted models some fitted myself some fitted by others i have bought secondhand, and some factory, im quite in agreement with the above, although better results can be achieved with a little work, i for one am not prepared really to hack around a model ive paid quite a sum for nowadays. i dont think charlie meant anything by it bescotbeast, i think the general benchmark these days is try and seal the speaker. Which i must admit doesent look pretty but appears to make a difference. The issue i find is, some projects appear to work better with unsealed speakers, for example i find the howse 47 sounds worse with a bass reflex than a non bass reflex. Part of the beauty with paul chetters class 47 rail express project was they had an intended speaker and enclosure for the vitrains 47 so you could get the sound quality that they intended. ive got to buy a 47 chassis shortly for a Bachmann body i need to get rid of so i might run a thread on what is best speaker for a particular project that you can get into an off the shelf Bachmann spoon without any physical modification.......and yes that includes the battery boxes For me manufacturers could go a lot further when it comes to accommodating DCC sound.......in that you could lose a lot of the chassis block in the 47, which gives you a lot more space to play with, and costs them less in required materials and shipping weight! Edited January 10, 2017 by pheaton 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold pheaton Posted January 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2017 That would be good richard, id like to see that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 10, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 10, 2017 Charlie, my video is aimed at the average modeller, who buys a sound chip to instal in his/her's favourite loco. All I want to do is show people a quick and cheap route to some better sounds. I do wonder at the above reply, and what was the motive Ouch. All Charlie was doing was explaining to the average modeller how to install a speaker and why the standard speaker was poor sounding. By the way, I would never describe myself as more than the average modeller, and my speakers are all sealed. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgman Posted January 10, 2017 Share Posted January 10, 2017 (edited) FWIW... About a month ago I tried this with an iPhone 5 speaker wired to an ESU decoder V.4 replacing the supplied round speaker. Very happy with it and no problems whatsoever to date except one........ I can't remember which loco its in ! Im not a sound technician by any stretch of the imagination but interesting comments previously remarking upon the MP3 v's WAV files. Any downloaded music I have is usually done using WAV files and there is a difference to my ears so unless these can be used in the sound decoders I for one am happy to live with it for the time being. p.s. Two speakers bought from that well know auction site 2 for just over £5 from a chap in Salisbury and they are OEM Edited January 10, 2017 by bgman 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 That would be good richard, id like to see that. I'd a;so like to see that as well, I'm open to new ideas etc Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 Ouch. All Charlie was doing was explaining to the average modeller how to install a speaker and why the standard speaker was poor sounding. By the way, I would never describe myself as more than the average modeller, and my speakers are all sealed. Roy Roy I didn't like the tone ( i highlighted the bit) and still don't. I've got an 85 that I bought of theifbay which was sound fitted and weathered nicely ,turns out the loco belonged to a fellow RMwebber. When I came to replace the speaker with the iphone speaker it was not sealed, my friends 85 that I show in the video above, was bought of ebay too, this again was not sealed. My point is that most people ignorant of the finer points of DCC sound just buy the chip, install it and forget about it, what I simply want to do is show people a simple alternative to "hand crafting" your own enclosure. To coin a phrase my friend uses, "Joe and Joanna normal" who don't frequent forums like this, may find my video on youtube and for minimal time and money outlay make a slight improvement to his/her son/daughters favourite sound fitted loco. Simon 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Revolution Mike B Posted January 11, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2017 The problem I've found with the iPhone speakers is that they just don't have the ability to create any bass....full stop! Let me give an overview of what I've tried and the results: iPhone 4 speaker - works ok and you can hear additional tones that aren't audible with a standard Loksound speaker, but no deep tones iPhone 5 speaker - much better than the 4 but still the same issue with lower frequencies iPhone 6 speaker - no better than the iPhone 4 Non of the iPhone speakers were inside anything as they are self enclosed Standard Loksound speaker - loudest of the lot (if put in a larger enclosure than the one that comes with it but lacks higher frequencies. Doesn't really produce any real low tones either that well Foster 8 ohm (supplied by Richard Croft) - not the loudest but definitely the clearest and quite an improvement on the standard speaker 40x28 4 ohm (supplied by Kevin at Coastal DCC) - noticeably quieter than the standard speaker but I can't get a box any bigger than 40x28 to fit in anything so this may be hindering the sound. Much better low frequency response but poor top end Bass Reflex (again from Coastal) - the best speaker of the lot but still not enough bass to give a decent rumble and fitment space can be an issue (Foster 8 ohm sounds as good if you don't have any room!) Which leaves me with the Earth Mover 2 speaker from Team Legomanbiffo I've yet to get my hands on one of these yet but I've heard one in real time and the difference is unbelievable - however, there's a fair bit of chopping around to be done to fit these in to anything that doesn't have a lot of room. I appreciate people don't wish to mess around with their models, given the price of them but for me, it's worth the effort because my stock is being exhibited and therefore far removed from it's manufacturer's pristine looks so residual value has taken a bit of a hit (or not if it looks good ) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2017 (edited) Roy I didn't like the tone ( i highlighted the bit) and still don't. I've got an 85 that I bought of theifbay which was sound fitted and weathered nicely ,turns out the loco belonged to a fellow RMwebber. When I came to replace the speaker with the iphone speaker it was not sealed, my friends 85 that I show in the video above, was bought of ebay too, this again was not sealed. My point is that most people ignorant of the finer points of DCC sound just buy the chip, install it and forget about it, what I simply want to do is show people a simple alternative to "hand crafting" your own enclosure. To coin a phrase my friend uses, "Joe and Joanna normal" who don't frequent forums like this, may find my video on youtube and for minimal time and money outlay make a slight improvement to his/her son/daughters favourite sound fitted loco. Simon I think you are missing the point that Charlie was making - the iPhone speaker is sealed (it comes in its own sealed sound box) hence his comment about not a good comparison. I for one would be interested in seeing the video with the 23mm speaker as was, sealed and the iPhone speaker as it was. That for me would be a good comparison video as I can then see if the benefit of sealing the 23mm speaker and then the additional benefit (if any) of the iPhone speaker. As for handcrafting - just using some blue tack / black tack makes a hell of a difference. As for tone, you questioned Charlie's motive in posting which was uncalled for (hence the ouch). He did not ask you to buy one of his speakers, just pointed out that the 23mm speaker would be better sealed. Roy Edited January 11, 2017 by Roy Langridge Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombatofludham Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 For me the issue isn't about the percieved value of the loco being modified to take speakers, it's the fact that whenever I start hacking away at a loco there's a 50-50 chance of me ruining it. I tried to modify a Class 150 chassis to accomodate a speaker enclosure once and managed to render it unworkable, fortunately I managed to find a replacement on eBay but it has rather put me off attempting surgery to fit speakers on the more difficult to convert stock, particularly with prices the way they are today. I don't see model railways as some sort of Jesuit devised punishment for past sins, so if there's an easy way to enjoy the hobby I'll go for it and I couldn't give a Donald Duck if the more obsessive modellers think I'm copping out, it's a hobby not one of Dante's Circles of Hell. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 The problem I've found with the iPhone speakers is that they just don't have the ability to create any bass....full stop! Let me give an overview of what I've tried and the results: iPhone 4 speaker - works ok and you can hear additional tones that aren't audible with a standard Loksound speaker, but no deep tones iPhone 5 speaker - much better than the 4 but still the same issue with lower frequencies iPhone 6 speaker - no better than the iPhone 4 Non of the iPhone speakers were inside anything as they are self enclosed Standard Loksound speaker - loudest of the lot (if put in a larger enclosure than the one that comes with it but lacks higher frequencies. Doesn't really produce any real low tones either that well Foster 8 ohm (supplied by Richard Croft) - not the loudest but definitely the clearest and quite an improvement on the standard speaker 40x28 4 ohm (supplied by Kevin at Coastal DCC) - noticeably quieter than the standard speaker but I can't get a box any bigger than 40x28 to fit in anything so this may be hindering the sound. Much better low frequency response but poor top end Bass Reflex (again from Coastal) - the best speaker of the lot but still not enough bass to give a decent rumble and fitment space can be an issue (Foster 8 ohm sounds as good if you don't have any room!) Which leaves me with the Earth Mover 2 speaker from Team Legomanbiffo I've yet to get my hands on one of these yet but I've heard one in real time and the difference is unbelievable - however, there's a fair bit of chopping around to be done to fit these in to anything that doesn't have a lot of room. I appreciate people don't wish to mess around with their models, given the price of them but for me, it's worth the effort because my stock is being exhibited and therefore far removed from it's manufacturer's pristine looks so residual value has taken a bit of a hit (or not if it looks good ) Thanks for the comparison, the best result I've had so far with an iphone6 speaker has been with my Class 20, it's a Legomanbiffo chip and the notes to my ears are loud and crisp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted January 11, 2017 Share Posted January 11, 2017 I think you are missing the point that Charlie was making - the iPhone speaker is sealed (it comes in its own sealed sound box) hence his comment about not a good comparison. I for one would be interested in seeing the video with the 23mm speaker as was, sealed and the iPhone speaker as it was. That for me would be a good comparison video as I can then see if the benefit of sealing the 23mm speaker and then the additional benefit (if any) of the iPhone speaker. As for handcrafting - just using some blue tack / black tack makes a hell of a difference. As for tone, you questioned Charlie's motive in posting which was uncalled for (hence the ouch). He did not ask you to buy one of his speakers, just pointed out that the 23mm speaker would be better sealed. Roy Roy I didn't miss the point Charlie was making, I took it as being "sniffy and sneering" and still do. Next, if you look at both videos, you will notice that the first video has a 23mm round speaker with a rudimentary enclosure "hand crafted" out of blutack, I then show the same Heljan Class 47 chassis with an iphone6 speaker, for comparison. Granted the second video doesn't have an airtight enclosure but it's the factory fitted enclosure that most people will be using. The Heljan Class 47, is a great case study in using an iphone speaker, the space between the bodyshell and the circuit board is very limited. The chassis is a cast iron brute, if you have the battery box only, clip on underframe like I do then you aren't left with a hell of a lot of plastic to butcher and create an enclosure, let alone a "bass reflex speaker",. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Roy Langridge Posted January 11, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2017 Roy I didn't miss the point Charlie was making, I took it as being "sniffy and sneering" and still do. Next, if you look at both videos, you will notice that the first video has a 23mm round speaker with a rudimentary enclosure "hand crafted" out of blutack, I then show the same Heljan Class 47 chassis with an iphone6 speaker, for comparison. Granted the second video doesn't have an airtight enclosure but it's the factory fitted enclosure that most people will be using. The Heljan Class 47, is a great case study in using an iphone speaker, the space between the bodyshell and the circuit board is very limited. The chassis is a cast iron brute, if you have the battery box only, clip on underframe like I do then you aren't left with a hell of a lot of plastic to butcher and create an enclosure, let alone a "bass reflex speaker",. Simon I did watch both videos and I made a mistake in my post, it was the 40x20 in the 85, not the 23mm. I would still like to hear a comparison of that as is, sealed and the iPhone speaker. I am sure that there are applications where the iPhone speaker is useful - I bought one a month ago which I intend to put in a Class 20. As for Charlie's post, you and I will have to disagree. I saw it as him offering advice, nothing more. In a typed message I know it can be hard to read intent, but for me there was nothing in it to complain. Roy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
charliepetty Posted January 12, 2017 Share Posted January 12, 2017 (edited) Roy I didn't miss the point Charlie was making, I took it as being "sniffy and sneering" and still do. Next, if you look at both videos, you will notice that the first video has a 23mm round speaker with a rudimentary enclosure "hand crafted" out of blutack, I then show the same Heljan Class 47 chassis with an iphone6 speaker, for comparison. Granted the second video doesn't have an airtight enclosure but it's the factory fitted enclosure that most people will be using. The Heljan Class 47, is a great case study in using an iphone speaker, the space between the bodyshell and the circuit board is very limited. The chassis is a cast iron brute, if you have the battery box only, clip on underframe like I do then you aren't left with a hell of a lot of plastic to butcher and create an enclosure, let alone a "bass reflex speaker",. Simon Sniffy & Sneering!! That a big compliment for a Yorkshireman, Donald Trump taught me all I know! Sorry if that's the way it came over, we have used these in Class 20s and they are fine, it just seemed to me obvious that the unsealed speaker in the clip would not sound correct, as an airtight enclosure is how speakers work, not airtight, sound low & crap, sorry but its true. We need everyone to ignore what Bachmann & Hornby do and 'learn' how sounds actually work. The I Phone speakers do a job in limited spaces, sound good but have little bass, sealing any speaker even Hornby TTS will make even poor sounds, sound better. I hope my comments are helpful, as that is what I intended, no fighting please, its a hobby! Charlie Edited January 12, 2017 by charliepetty 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
larryblag Posted January 29, 2017 Share Posted January 29, 2017 (edited) I think some classes of loco work better than others. It depends on what (to my ear anyway) is the main characteristic. For instance the EE type 2 (class 20) works well as its main sound characteristic (as we all know) is it's whistling turbo. Others, such as the Deltic have a really bassy main sound (apart from the clatter of all those meshing gears) so it doesn't work as well through a small loco-fitted speaker. The "throb" of a 56 is another one that could really do with a decently large speaker as are most steam locos where the high frequency needed for steam lends itself to the small loco speaker but the "chuff" really needs something bigger Edited January 29, 2017 by larryblag Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classy52 Posted May 6, 2017 Share Posted May 6, 2017 (edited) Ok I've come across and read this thread, a bit late but still catching up. Very informative especially for a DCC Sound novice such as myself who is seriously considering delving into hacking the interior of brand new Class 37's (sound fitted already & not fitted) in order to replace whatever speakers are in them atm with EM2's, haven't purchased them yet and still buying tools to do the job properly. I will eventually need 6x EM2's for my 37's because quite frankly when I listened to Charlie's examples at Ally Pally & Epsom recently they are quite simply astonishing no matter what that sound expert had to say earlier in the thread...yes he is taking it way too seriously but also found the some of the comments quite derogatory towards the sound experts within the model railway fraternity. My only opinion on the matter whether you agree or not isn't about speakers, sound chips or scale sound but it is about Bachmann/Hornby/Heljan/Dapol/Others getting off their collective arses and start treating DCC Sound seriously and re-design the interiors of their locomotives so people like me & others can comfortably fit EM2's or whatever else of that size without surgically removing plastic and metal with the risk of permanently damaging the product. I know someone will say...'why should they' but it would be wrong if they don't and will probably push more people away from the hobby if they are not as dedicated or persistent as myself or everyone in this thread and don't forget the DCC Sound is addictive and I'm hooked. Yes I will hack & cut and make mistakes in the process which may cost me dearly but too be honest I'd rather just open the loco up and slot in the sound chip and EM2 or large speaker without altering the design which involves hours of work and having the correct tools and I suppose acumen to do it in the first place. All I'm saying I think it is time now for the major Model Railway companies to re-design their locomotive interiors and just make it easier for railway modellers and themselves to fit DCC Sound and various types of speakers thus maybe creating a specific speaker enclosure within the chassis that can house an EM2 or smaller which is part of the re-design. This is just a novice's opinion. Edited May 7, 2017 by classy52 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PaulRhB Posted May 6, 2017 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 6, 2017 Some very interesting stuff and the iPhone speakers certainly offer some potential for very small locos. Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
classy52 Posted May 7, 2017 Share Posted May 7, 2017 (edited) Btw are there any videos on fitting the EM2's into the Class 37 and Class 68 chassis/body? Would be quite useful for someone like me who has never done this to first look at how it is done properly with visual tips not just on how to cut & mill but also which tools are used by the experts during the process, in the end the people who sell these items will benefit from increased sales of sound chips and speakers if the confidence to do this type of work is instilled into the beginners or intermediates if their expertise is shared on how it is actually done. I haven't found any on YouTube thus assume no videos are currently available unless I've missed them??? Edited May 7, 2017 by classy52 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bescotbeast Posted May 7, 2017 Share Posted May 7, 2017 I think some classes of loco work better than others. It depends on what (to my ear anyway) is the main characteristic. For instance the EE type 2 (class 20) works well as its main sound characteristic (as we all know) is it's whistling turbo. Others, such as the Deltic have a really bassy main sound (apart from the clatter of all those meshing gears) so it doesn't work as well through a small loco-fitted speaker. The "throb" of a 56 is another one that could really do with a decently large speaker as are most steam locos where the high frequency needed for steam lends itself to the small loco speaker but the "chuff" really needs something bigger This is what I've found from my own messing about, engines with a lot of bass aren't suited to the iphone speaker but those with a softer note like a 20/25 or an AC electric can sound good through them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RAF96 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 If you want a half decent enclosure for a 28mm round speaker go for a Humbrol plastic paint tin and chop the lid part off. Fix speaker in place with some tak stuff. This sealed speaker stuff goes back to way before HiFi became the way to go for decent sound. Pure acoustics, nowt to do with DCC sound. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tractor_37260 Posted May 9, 2017 Share Posted May 9, 2017 The Heljan Class 47, is a great case study in using an iphone speaker, the space between the bodyshell and the circuit board is very limited. The chassis is a cast iron brute, if you have the battery box only, clip on underframe like I do then you aren't left with a hell of a lot of plastic to butcher and create an enclosure, let alone a "bass reflex speaker",. Simon Simon It's possible to fit 2 x 28mm round speakers or 1 x 23 & 1 x 28 with enclosures in a Heljan 47 - result - loads of volume and weight to the sound, without any major surgery, just the edges of the enclosures shaved off to clear the roof curvature and their overall depth reduced slightly. HTH Ken Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodys Posted September 23, 2017 Share Posted September 23, 2017 I read this post as I was thinking about trying some new ideas for my sound locos but took on board Nile Griffiths statements about realism. It soon became obvious that I needed a full size Western but even after I'd demolished the garden wall and installed it in my barn it still didn't sound quite right as the doppler effect wouldn't kick in without an eight mile run up, so much to my dismay I had to return it. After a bit of thought I decided to put an EM2 and an Iphone 6 speaker arrangement in my Dapol class 52 with Biffo Sounds.....well I have to say it's pretty good..... and a lot easier to keep clean too...! 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albie the plumber Posted September 25, 2017 Share Posted September 25, 2017 I read this post as I was thinking about trying some new ideas for my sound locos but took on board Nile Griffiths statements about realism. It soon became obvious that I needed a full size Western but even after I'd demolished the garden wall and installed it in my barn it still didn't sound quite right as the doppler effect wouldn't kick in without an eight mile run up, so much to my dismay I had to return it. After a bit of thought I decided to put an EM2 and an Iphone 6 speaker arrangement in my Dapol class 52 with Biffo Sounds.....well I have to say it's pretty good..... and a lot easier to keep clean too...! IMG_2072.JPG My ! you have been a busy boy Woody ! Please do let us know if plan to release another U tube video , we would all love to hear this one ! Albie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
campbellad123 Posted November 27, 2017 Share Posted November 27, 2017 An iPhone 6 speaker, and an EM2...jusy what I asked on another post... As you have first hand experience with doing it, can the highs from the iphone6 speaker be heard clearly? Also did you reduce the volume as to not let the chip overheat with the lower impedance of the speakers? Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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