Minority Report: The Wish-List Poll & the Pre-Grouper

[BG John]

Likewise, modelling a minority company in a minority scale.  I do note, however that there are some CR locos in the N-gauge section, but exactly what scale ratio they would be produced in is anyone's guess as the N-gauge RTR manufacturers seem to have rather elastic measuring instruments!  Nevertheless,I've voted for those in which I would be interested.

 

Jim

It's not always easy modelling a majority company in a majority scale either. I've yet to see even a hint of any RTR in 28.08mm gauge!

[James Harrison]

I have voted in the poll for the bits I would be interested in; no doubt if they were to be made they would be done most likely in 1930s- 1950s guise (with, if I am lucky, a release several years later of the 1930s-fit model given a brunswick green finish with 'GREAT CENTRAL' emblazoned on the side).  But what I have borne in mind is that the wishlist is just that; it's not Messers Bachmann and Hornby giving us a choice of what they should make next, rather a list by modellers for modellers of 'wouldn't it be nice' models.  It's a measure of interest, not definite pre-orders.  I may have said I would like to see an RTR Coronation tank; if someone goes ahead and makes one with the later side-window cab and not provision for the original type then I still reserve the right to either buy it and alter it, or ignore it.  

 

I see what you're saying Edwardian and I agree it would be nice if manufacturers at least paid lip service to the idea of tooling up for a proper Pre-Group model of x/y/z alongside their more usual post-1930 offerings (in the case of things like boiler fittings fairly easy to do- and would widen the appeal of the model!), but the time to do that would be once the model has been announced as being in-development.  The H-class for example; rather than wait until it has been released to complain that it only suits post-1923, why not contact Hornby now to register interest in a Pre-Group version? Enough people do that, we might get somewhere. 

 

I wish I had when Bachmann were developing their J11; it might just have saved me a job now in having to move the whistle and replace the chimney. 

[JohnR]

Perhaps next year an additional question could be asked so that respondents could let the Poll Team know which period they primarily model in. Hence the results could be "FOr thos that model 1948-68, the top loco was X, but those who model pre-1923 the top loco was Y" etc? We could then ascertain that a pre-1923 condition model of Y scores more votes than the 3rd placed loco for 1948-68?

 

Just a thought. 

[wagonman]

It's not always easy modelling a majority company in a majority scale either. I've yet to see even a hint of any RTR in 28.08mm gauge!

 

 

Given the compromises necessary to round a #2 curve, I doubt you'd want to buy anything that was produced!

[Andy Hayter]

While I have much sympathy with the argument being made and share in equal measure the frustration in working out how to back date models, the reality is that even if we did have a poll that allowed us to express our desire for LNWR Hardwick in 1900 LNWR condition, and even if there were sufficient votes for this that a manufacturer decided to go and produce a model, his prime source for creating such a model is going to be the as-preserved example in the NRM. If we were very lucky any glaring changes might then be designed back towards original condition (I am assuming there are some). It may well be however that the producer would just make it as-is.

 

That I am afraid is the reality and I think we are likely to be forever looking at back dating - or at least until 3D can produce the necessary. Even then we have to ask, where will the 3D designer get his data from for the CAD-CAMs that a mainstream producer cannot/will not.

[burgundy]

I was approached by Brian, as one of the poll team, and asked to publicise the Wishlist in the Brighton Circular Modelling Notes, which I have done.

I asked whether some Stroudley 4 wheeled carriages might not be included in the list, to accompany all those Improved Engine Green Terriers (in 2mm, 4mm or 7mm scale); they might also provide a suitable starting point for a light railway model - with or without Terriers.

Brian agreed to put the idea forward but warned that "it is a team decision and is based on many factors". On the evidence, the team gave it the thumbs down.

Fortunately for my own modelling ambitions, I gave up waiting for the RTR community to meet my needs a long time ago.

Best wishes

Eric 

[Jol Wilkinson]

I would only vote for prototypes that are not already available as kits. We are too reliant on the smaller suppliers for most of the pre-grouping items available to risk damaging their business viability.

 

Where a model has been available in kit form for many years, such as the LNWR Jumbo - and in different kit formats - then I don't believe that anyone who really wants/needs one has any excuse for not  having one. Whether that means learning how to build a kit, getting one professionally built, bartering for one, buying s/h, etc.

 

Given the breadth of possible prototypes and their variations over time, then supporting Wish Lists in the hope of getting what you want seems to be a good way of not actually doing any modelling.

[BMacdermott]

Hello everyone

 

I'll catch up with your comments here

 

Guy Rixon (26):

We explain our reasoning for stating certain Diagram Numbers in The Guide (and you can find that at the head of the Freight Stock: Pre-1948 category). We state that Diagram Numbers are given as 'representative'. Also explained there are our reasons for including certain pre-Group Wagons & Vans under a generic heading. We have many ways of selecting items - one of them is about livery potential. Others include how 'publicly popular' an item is; how many kits have been produced; how many books or articles have been written. Plus a lot more!

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment: Can we vote for the things we get to vote for? Apologies if I'm missing something there.

 

John R (#32):

We did have an 'era' question in The Poll when we first ran it in 2012, but it was clear that it was only reflecting what most people knew as the overall spread anyway. We took that, plus 'age', etc out so that we concentrated purely on the models people want. I will, however, put it on the Agenda for you.

 

Burgundy (Eric) (#36)

Hello Eric, we did, indeed, have a good chat about pre-Group coaches which I very much enjoyed. As promised, I did put the stock you mention forward to The Team, but it was felt that we couldn't fit it in this year. I placed it on the 2017 Agenda for you as soon as that decision was reached.

 

Many thanks to all. But please bear in mind that we will never be able to please everyone. If we listed all 10,000 items that we could list (and we could probably get that to 30,000 fairly quickly) we would answer every request - but then voters would turn off in droves because they wouldn't be able to find what they want as easily as they can now, and Andy York would do little else for 10 months of the year other than construct the 'computerised bits' for us!

 

All a matter of reasonable compromise but... like a lot of things.. what is 'reasonable' can lead to a lot of debate.

 

Brian Macdermott (on behalf of The Poll Team - swimming against a tide of possibilities!)

[BMacdermott]

Hello LNWR Modeller

 

I take the 'lead role' in The Wishlist Poll - but am speaking personally here and not on its behalf.

 

My wife has a disability which means I am a full-time carer. Things such as the smell of glues and paints can have a serious effect on her and muscles can go into painful spasm which can last a long time. I know of a number of people who value the opportunity of voting in The Poll who have their own physical difficulties to contend with.

 

Each to our own.

 

Brian Macdermott (re-iterating that I am speaking personally and not on behalf of The Team in this posting.

[Guy Rixon]

 

We explain our reasoning for stating certain Diagram Numbers in The Guide (and you can find that at the head of the Freight Stock: Pre-1948 category). We state that Diagram Numbers are given as 'representative'. Also explained there are our reasons for including certain pre-Group Wagons & Vans under a generic heading. We have many ways of selecting items - one of them is about livery potential. Others include how 'publicly popular' an item is; how many kits have been produced; how many books or articles have been written. Plus a lot more!

 

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your comment: Can we vote for the things we get to vote for? Apologies if I'm missing something there.

 

I've re-read the section introduction and I still don't see why the GWR has so much extra detail, other than the possibility that the GWR entries were there first when the list was less short of space. Or perhaps the GWR has better lobbyists? Which is the point of my question: how does one lobby to get something included on the list for the next vote? 

[JohnR]

Brian, my point wasnt to see the overall spread of what period people model in, rather how people's preferences CHANGE depending on the era they model in. By doing this, you could very easily enable people such as poor old Edwardian here to know that their vote is counting for a pre-1914 version of a loco, rather than the post 1948 version which is radically different and of no use to them. 

 

A loco which might be high up, for instance, may no longer be as popular if you strip out votes from those pre-1914 modellers desperate for a version that wont get produced. Likewise a model with overall lower numbers may rise up the charts, ie a pre-1914 loco X may have more votes than post 1948 loco Y....

[Edwardian]

Brian, my point wasnt to see the overall spread of what period people model in, rather how people's preferences CHANGE depending on the era they model in. By doing this, you could very easily enable people such as poor old Edwardian here to know that their vote is counting for a pre-1914 version of a loco, rather than the post 1948 version which is radically different and of no use to them. 

 

A loco which might be high up, for instance, may no longer be as popular if you strip out votes from those pre-1914 modellers desperate for a version that wont get produced. Likewise a model with overall lower numbers may rise up the charts, ie a pre-1914 loco X may have more votes than post 1948 loco Y....

 

Thank you for putting the point so succinctly and clearly.

 

Yes, that, without my verbiage, unsought controversy and preternaturally swift visitation from Andy Y, was essentially my concern. 

[BMacdermott]

Hello Guy (#40)

 

The lists have always been ‘short of space’. We feel we have explained the reasoning adequately. There are no ‘lobbyists’. Each suggestion is looked at by us all via an Agenda and dealt with according to its perceived value of gaining a place on the list. We have said we cannot hope to please all the people all the time.

 

As just noted over on the ‘main’ Wishlist Poll thread…

 

An appeal to anyone suggesting items for consideration:

Please take a look at The Guide and see how things are listed there: a title; 100 or so words of text; one or two links. If you can supply your suggestions in that format, we would appreciate it. It also helps ensure we are understanding exactly what you are meaning.

 

Hello John R (#41)

 

As noted here and on the ‘main’ Wishlist Poll thread, we do put suggestions on the Agenda and give them all a ‘fair hearing’. However, when we first started running The Poll in 2012, we were tasked with rationalising the content (which is not the same as ‘rationing’) and make it easier for everyone to vote.

 

John R, Edwardian, Guy et al are all what I would respectfully term ‘aficionados’ of your subject – many of the people who write to us are people who simply ‘run trains’ and want to learn a little more about their hobby.

 

Finally…

 

An appeal to readers of this thread:

 

As noted by Edwardian (the OP), he was not expecting The Poll Team to comment here. We have done our best, but the subject is now getting divided between the two threads.

 

With the best of intention, The Poll Team will now bow out of replying on this thread, but will welcome similar questions on our own thread (The Wishlist Poll 2016).

 

Brian Macdermott (on behalf of The Poll Team)

[Jol Wilkinson]

Hello LNWR Modeller

 

I take the 'lead role' in The Wishlist Poll - but am speaking personally here and not on its behalf.

 

My wife has a disability which means I am a full-time carer. Things such as the smell of glues and paints can have a serious effect on her and muscles can go into painful spasm which can last a long time. I know of a number of people who value the opportunity of voting in The Poll who have their own physical difficulties to contend with.

 

Each to our own.

 

Brian Macdermott (re-iterating that I am speaking personally and not on behalf of The Team in this posting.

Brian,

 

some modellers have genuine reasons for relying on RTR manufacturers to supply their modelling requirements and you are clearly one of them.

 

The concept of a wish list provides a significant number of modellers to express an desire for particular models but - looking at the number of prototypes in question and the RTR manufacturers "rate" of new model introduction - without much realistic hope of getting them. However there are several other routes to getting what you want. Many models are available second hand through auction houses, ebay,  bring and buy stands at shows, specialist dealers, etc. so it is possible to build a collection of pre-group models even if you can't  do your own model making or find/finance some other way such as having them professionally built.

 

So for me the concept of a wish list doesn't really work. Without understanding the way in which the RTR manufacturers prefer to work (e.g. 3D scanning of existing preserved prototypes rather than using original drawings, etc.) and therefore recognizing what is likely, probable, possible, unlikely or never going to happen, then what people wish for becomes little more than a forlorn hope.

 

I recognise that I am probably in very small minority on RMweb in taking this viewpoint. For me the only way forward is to recognise that if you can't do something for yourself and you want it badly enough, you will find a way forward. Do wishlists actually achieve that?

 

Jol

[PaulRhB]

We have seen with the SECR C that a pre grouping loco will sell well and spawn others, Like the Blue Pullman though it is a leap into the unknown for the manufacturer so having one that can carry the later liveries obviously makes sense as that is a known market. Like LNWR modeller says there are some excellent kits available and building services. Now is the problem that people get stuck comparing prices with the rtr rather than that's a loco I really want? We all work to a budget and it really comes down to do you succumb to 5 or more rtr locos or one professionally built kit one?

I'm sure the big boys would be more than happy if someone else took the risk on an early version but why would they when they know an existing proved market will pick up the later style model?

Now I have to declare a weakness for many pre-grouping liveries and if there were rtr LNWR models I'd snap them up, the same goes for some of the elegant LSWR / SR 4-4-0's. I've seriously considered some of the superb kits but simply decided too many other projects to finish with models I've already got means they would just add to the one day pile. Now that pile is shrinking nicely, just three kits left to build, so maybe I will invest in a few once the Coal tank is out as a protection against them not being there by the time I get round to looking for another project I live in hope that Hardwicke will join the NRM collection for now

Now if people fill in the wishlists as I have choosing the pre group options that will stir the same process that eventually led to the Blue Pullman but it may be a while yet. If you can't wait on chance then maybe you need to sell off a load of your rtr (or golf clubs) to finance what you really want to run

[Craigw]

 

 

I think the conclusion is that us pre-grouping modellers should just ignore the poll, and get on with doing our own thing in the almost complete certainty that the RTR industry won't provide anything useful. On the very rare occasion they do, we just need to grab it quick before it sells out, in case it starts selling for silly money on eBay.

 

I would have thought that you comment really is stating the obvious.

 

If the RTR manufacturers do not make what you want then you have a choice. Change your modelling interests to what they supply or learn to kit and scratch build. It really is that simple. The alternative is whinging on here and writing post... after post...after post...after post about how the big bad manufacturers do not make what you want.

 

Your life, your choice but I know what is more enjoyable to me.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[BG John]

I would have thought that you comment really is stating the obvious.

 

If the RTR manufacturers do not make what you want then you have a choice. Change your modelling interests to what they supply or learn to kit and scratch build. It really is that simple. The alternative is whinging on here and writing post... after post...after post...after post about how the big bad manufacturers do not make what you want.

 

Your life, your choice but I know what is more enjoyable to me.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

To a certain extent, but if you don't ask, you don't get. Making the world aware that we're here, and want stuff, at least raises awareness of it, and it's just possible we won't have to spend our lives in a modelling ghetto, totally excluded from the rest of the modelling community!

[Edwardian]

I would have thought that you comment really is stating the obvious.

 

If the RTR manufacturers do not make what you want then you have a choice. Change your modelling interests to what they supply or learn to kit and scratch build. It really is that simple. The alternative is whinging on here and writing post... after post...after post...after post about how the big bad manufacturers do not make what you want.

 

Your life, your choice but I know what is more enjoyable to me.

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

 

Or, you could register your interest an earlier period, attempt to foster that interest in others, and approach the matter in a constructive and positive manner.

 

In my experience the debate only deteriorates when certain modellers, and I find more often than not BR modellers, who, by definition do not face the issues under consideration, use pejorative phrases and attempt to slam down anyone who advocates anything different.  

[Craigw]

To a certain extent, but if you don't ask, you don't get. Making the world aware that we're here, and want stuff, at least raises awareness of it, and it's just possible we won't have to spend our lives in a modelling ghetto, totally excluded from the rest of the modelling community!

 

I think you mean the RTR buying community John. There is plenty of modelling that can be done without buying RTR products. I buy precious little RTR (Two Hornby Collett coaches and a Hornby Sentinel!) and i do not feel excluded from the modelling community even living in Australia

 

Regards,

 

Craig W

[Craigw]

Or, you could register your interest an earlier period, attempt to foster that interest in others, and approach the matter in a constructive and positive manner.

 

In my experience the debate only deteriorates when certain modellers, and I find more often than not BR modellers, who, by definition do not face the issues under consideration, use pejorative phrases and attempt to slam down anyone who advocates anything different.  

 

GWR modeller, modelling around 1923 - 1924 thanks.

 

I just prefer to get on with things and have a go rather than constantly complain that the shop does not have the lollies I want.

 

Craig W

[Edwardian]

GWR modeller, modelling around 1923 - 1924 thanks.

 

I just prefer to get on with things and have a go rather than constantly complain that the shop does not have the lollies I want.

 

Craig W

 

But who was complaining?

 

This thread concerns the point, valid IMHO, that the current Wish List configuration does not permit people to register interest in early-condition items, a fact, and it ponders what the response to that might be.

 

A number of new topics here (3, I think) are based upon the inherently constructive premise that RTR products can be creatively adapted for the pre-Grouping scenes.

 

Elsewhere, where a model that could have been produced with a pre-Group variant, but isn't, members (often Yours Truly), point that out with regret.  That, I think, is the closest we get to a complaint, but there is little expectation that RTR manufacturers in their current mind-set would oblige; the point is to register interest in pre-Grouping variants and to demonstrate that there is a level of interest and demand.  It is for those making commercial decisions to gauge whether the demand is yet sufficient, but I think you do yourself and the debate a great disservice if you try to brush aside all expressions of support for earlier periods as "whinging on here and writing post... after post...after post...after post about how the big bad manufacturers do not make what you want".

 

I am afraid that it is attitudes such as that which will ghettoise minority interests.

[BG John]

Elsewhere, where a model that could have been produced with a pre-Group variant, but isn't, members (often Yours Truly), point that out with regret. 

Which tends to be more restrained than some of the "frothing" about more modern variants that aren't produced, or where they have minor errors in detail or livery. Look at the discussions/arguments on black bits that should be yellow, black bits that should be blue and blue bits that should be black, on the forthcoming Dapol O gauge 08s, especially when someone comes up with evidence that one actually was painted that way, although he majority weren't! We'd be grateful for a model that only needs a bit of paintwork touching up, rather than a complete rebuild of the body, scrapping much of what we've just paid a lot of money for.

[Fat Lieutenant]

Which tends to be more restrained than some of the "frothing" about more modern variants that aren't produced, or where they have minor errors in detail or livery. Look at the discussions/arguments on black bits that should be yellow, black bits that should be blue and blue bits that should be black, on the forthcoming Dapol O gauge 08s, especially when someone comes up with evidence that one actually was painted that way, although he majority weren't! We'd be grateful for a model that only needs a bit of paintwork touching up, rather than a complete rebuild of the body, scrapping much of what we've just paid a lot of money for.

 

True, and very well put.

 

In contrast the measured and informed points made by you, Edwardian and others may be difficult for some people to meet, but should not cause such negative outbursts.  In general I have been impressed by how reasoned and courteous the boards are.  I hope it stays that way!

[Andy Hayter]

I think the poll team have a near impossible task and as Brian points out there are thousands of potential candidates for the list. There are therefore bound to be disappointed viewers.

 

I do agree that the GWR area seems to be more specifically targeted than many other pre-grouping areas, but perhaps that represents their strength in lobbying rather than any bias on the part of the team. A couple of years ago I sent Brian a message saying that we needed more pre-grouping wagons and stock to go with the pre-grouping locomotives being brought out. He replied that I should try and specify what was needed and (to my shame)I never got around to preparing a list. In part therefore I have to take blame for the vagueness of the lists for GCR, SECR, LBSCR and others.

 

I have therefore clicked on "SECR Wagons & Vans (inc ‘Dance Hall’ & 6-wheel Brake Vans)" , although to be honest, the very last thing I would want is an SECR liveried Dance Hall Brake.

 

It is therefore beholden on us to let the team know which models we want and if necessary in what condition (ie for example as built, as modified in 19xx or whatever).

[Mrkirtley800]

You put that very well, Simon. All my modelling life, about 63 years, I have looked wistfully at what is produced, of course in the early days there wasn't much. That is why I became an ardent scratch builder. I wanted a balanced stud of locos for my particular period interest, so I had very little option.

Now I can only look on in amazement at the quantity and quality available, but still much of it does not fit in with my requirements. For example, If I wanted a Bachman 3F but with a round top firebox and Salter safety valves, it would mean heavily modifying the rtr model or building one from scratch or a kit.

Having said all that, if I were starting again, I just might modify my modelling period so that I could use some of the delightful stuff that comes off the shelf, but then all the knowledge and know how that comes with building from scratch would never be attained.

Derek