50t Warwell Wagon in OO Gauge

[cctransuk]

I think you'll find that the model Hatton's has produced, regardless of it's provenance, certainly should have plates above the buffers in it's post-2000 guise. I purchased MODA 95536 (hatton's code H4-WW-018) as pictured below with the plates clearly visible:

moda95536-kwa-glos-ooc-05aug2000-film0022-13a.jpg

(Image from the same article that Paul linked above: http://www.railalbum.co.uk/railway-wagons/military/ww2-50-ton-warwell-2.htm)

 

I'll admit that I was unaware of a more modern batch of warwells, I was under the impression the originals were simply refurbished and rebogied so I'd be happy to learn more about that?

 

You may well be correct regarding only one batch being built, during WW2 - I am probably mixing up WARWELLs with WARFLATs.

 

However, hasn't it been posted earlier in this tread that Hattons haven't tooled for the modified version with widened ramps and removeable platform? That'll be why it hasn't got the buffer plates.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

[hmrspaul]

You may well be correct regarding only one batch being built, during WW2 - I am probably mixing up WARWELLs with WARFLATs.

 

However, hasn't it been posted earlier in this tread that Hattons haven't tooled for the modified version with widened ramps and removeable platform? That'll be why it hasn't got the buffer plates.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

The modification only has plate to the side of the buffer, not over the buffers. That 2000 photo in Greg's site shows this, and this nicely shows how narrow the plate is in these modified wagons.

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e8d5c2faa

 

This shows how the additional side plate merges into the side before the drop into the well. We've said before an easy modification with a strip of plasticard.  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e8d5c3467

 

Paul

Edited June 25, 2017 by hmrspaul

[Ragtag]

Thanks Paul for those shots. Certainly not debating that it's an easy fix but if Oxford tools it it's a point in their favour as far as I'm concerned. Whether they can match the weight, running quality and finish is what will ultimately decide it for me.

[KDG]

The modification only has plate to the side of the buffer, not over the buffers. That 2000 photo in Greg's site shows this, and this nicely shows how narrow the plate is in these modified wagons.

 

http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e8d5c2faa

 

This shows how the additional side plate merges into the side before the drop into the well. We've said before an easy modification with a strip of plasticard.  http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/warwell/e8d5c3467

 

Paul

Hi Paul

 

I was hoping it would be a case as you suggested of adding a strip of plasticard along the edge to create the widened decks, but on further examination, it's not that easy. To get the right look the angled supports underneath need altering too.

Does anybody else think that the GPS bogies are too narrow?

[Going2theDogs]

Hi All,

Thought I would share an image showing my rake of Warwells now loaded with Warriors in my fiddle yard.

Unfortunately, I haven't had an opportunity to make a cradle for the tanks to sit on & not yet 'strapped' these down.

The Mainline Class 37 may not be prototypical but the 2 Bachmann. VGA & VDA vans at the rear finish of the rake nicely.

Question - when the Warrior are transported is their a preference (or not) in what direction they should be facing?

[Ragtag]

They have to travel backwards for the turret to remain within gauge, which means no reversals other than a specific few exceptions.

[Ragtag]

As an additional point, Mainline 37s seem to have been used on MoD duties as an issue of Rail from Aug. 2000 has one on an MoD flow, albeit a container train.

 

Out of interest, are the Warriors to 1/76 or 1/72?

[County of Yorkshire]

Received my four Warwells 'On Loan to the GW' on Friday, but only got my sticky mitts on them yesterday due to being away on a rather nice canal holiday!

 

They are exquisite things, even if the price (£29.75 each based on Hattons pack of 4) is on the wincing side of reasonable for me personally considering it's a flat wagon!

 

Some questions if I may:

 

1) Would the 'wells have been kept on loan to the big 4 companies right up until nationalization? 

 

2) Would 'wells on loan to all companies likely have been seen mixed together in the same train at any point? 

 

3) Were Warflats 'loaned' out to the big 4 as the Warwells were? Bachmann's scheduled releases do not seem to infer this - I can't find any info online to confirm this either. From what I can tell they were all registered to the LMS only. 

 

4) Would the 'wells have been loaded via loading docks, or using special ramp wagons, on indeed both?

 

4a) Is there a kit of the ramp wagons currently available?

 

5) My four Warwells are incongruously all number as 'No.1 On Loan to the GW'. Does anyone know of suitable transfers that would allow for some renumbering?

 

Ta in advance.

 

CoY 

 

P.S - Many congratulations to Hattons for comprehensively beating Bachmann in getting these to market before their own Warflats - an October 2016 announcement and a June 2017 release plays a summer(?) 2013 announcement and a... Autumn 2017(?) release - astonishing when you think about it really. Hattons are surely a shoe-in for retailer of the year... and possibly also manufacturer and model(s) of the year too? First the 14/48/58xx's and now these delightful pieces of kit!

Edited June 25, 2017 by County of Yorkshire

[Going2theDogs]

Hi Ragtag,

I thought I had seen the class 37 at the front of a MOD train but couldn't remember where. As a regular subscriber to Rail Express that must be where I saw it.

The warriors are 1:72 scale & are supplied as a diecast vehicle pre-painted. On the box there are a couple of brand names - Easy Model & Modern Ground Armour.

I picked these up on Amazon for around 12 quid each from memory earlier in the year.

These are also available in 'desert sand' & also white.

Hope this helps.

[South-East Rail]

...

Question - when the Warrior are transported is their a preference (or not) in what direction they should be facing?IMG_8049.JPG

 

They have to travel backwards for the turret to remain within gauge, which means no reversals other than a specific few exceptions.

 

There is evidence for their running facing forward too:

Military load No 2 by Stuart Riley, on Flickr

 

See also: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/8451866868/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/8459307204/

 

Ed

Edited June 25, 2017 by South-East Rail

[Ragtag]

 

 

There is evidence for their running facing forward too:

Military load No 2 by Stuart Riley, on Flickr

 

See also: 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/8451866868/

https://www.flickr.com/photos/johndedman/8459307204/

 

Ed

 

Indeed, I have an article somewhere which mentions the specific locations a train loaded with Warriors can be reversed/run forwards without fouling lineside infrastructure. I can hunt it out if it's of interest to people.

[Arthur]

 

They have to travel backwards for the turret to remain within gauge, which means no reversals other than a specific few exceptions.

How does the direction of travel affect the loading gauge? Surely the profile of the vehicle is the same either way?

 

.

[South-East Rail]

How does the direction of travel affect the loading gauge? Surely the profile of the vehicle is the same either way?

 

.

 

The Warrior's turret is offset to one side which (presumably) affects the loading gauge. 

 

Ed

[Arthur]

 

Thanks Ed, that would make sense.

 

.

[Fat Controller]

The Warrior's turret is offset to one side which (presumably) affects the loading gauge. 

 

Ed

It does, as the station valance at Tyseley bore witness; a train from Didcot carrying Warriors was diverted via a platform road, removing a large section of valance. The train ran over a weekend, when the station was unstaffed. On the Monday, the station staff arrived to find their (recently restored) station missing portions of valance, whilst the Army found chunks of splintered wood on top of a train of AFVs at Leyburn.

Loads such as these run via set routes which have been carefully gauged; they run as *X** headcodes, as Control should be notified of possible changes of route in advance.

[SouthernMafia]

Have a couple of Warriors built waiting for these but still unsure whether to wait for Oxford or take plunge with these.

 

Another interesting load I'd like to model is the digger carrying warwell (I assume it's a warwell) as seen on engineering trains a few years ago:

https://flic.kr/p/nS8xjT

 

Does anyone have any closer pics of these, particularly the ramps?

[Mark Saunders]

Another interesting load I'd like to model is the digger carrying warwell (I assume it's a warwell) as seen on engineering trains a few years ago:https://flic.kr/p/nS8xjT

Does anyone have any closer pics of these, particularly the ramps?

These are purpose built in recent years for moving plant to engineering sites and one of the kit manufacturers produces these!

 

Mark Saunders

[Ragtag]

4a) Is there a kit of the ramp wagons currently available?

 

Ta in advance.

 

CoY 

 

There are a couple of kits for the ramp wagons out there.

 

Wild Boar Models has a WW2 one: https://www.shapeways.com/product/ZPPKG3M2D/ww2-built-ramp-wagon

 

Genesis Kits have one too, not sure if it's the same prototype: http://www.petersspares.com/genesis-wk206-moda-ramp-wagon-pewter-kit-4mm-scale.ir

 

 

[Pete Goss]

For anyone modelling a more period layout (1940's) the War-wells were used exclusively to carry Sherman tanks in rakes of 9 with old  brake coaches each end for the tank crews and a van or two for tools and parts and ramp wagons at each end of the war wells. Shermans were higher relative to British tanks and they needed the extra ht that a warwell wagon well bottom provides.  Turrets were generally pointed to the back of a train irrespective to vehicle posture and barrels strapped down to the body.

 

British Churchill tanks were not as high and could be loaded onto first world war built War-Flat wagons, again 9 or 10 in a rake.  Or 2 Stuart tanks as they were smaller. Any spare space was used up for small soft skin vehicles. It would be unusual to mix war well and war flat wagon types at this time. Churchill side body parts were removed to fit the railway guage and chains were fastened at both ends of each vehicle in a X format to brace the vehicle in the stowed position..

 

Tanks were loaded either horizontally from a side platform or end dock or with the use of a small Ramp-wagon. Ramp wagons were generally detested as they took a lot of time to set up and a few loose sleepers were required to protect rails at the bottom of the ramp. Tanks would rumble along the full length of the train to dis-embark or embark.

 

Looking at the more modern pictures the tank seems to be sat on a raised cradle. Presumably this eases the rise and drop of the tank travel as it droves along the train?  Not sure. 

 

If tanks didn't have very far to travel they would go by road under their own steam. During the1940's etc various mileages were laid down for different tank types and that determined whether they travelled by rail or not.

 

cheers

 

[Ragtag]

 

Looking at the more modern pictures the tank seems to be sat on a raised cradle. Presumably this eases the rise and drop of the tank travel as it droves along the train?  Not sure. 

 

 

 

Hi Pete,

 

it may well do just as you say but I believe the main reason for the cradle is to help the Warrior clear lineside infrastructure (particularly platform edges).

 

Hopefully now the warwells are released someone will resurrect either the BW Models or Cromwell Models Warrior in 1/76. I'm not convinced that a 1/72 Warrior is going to look sensible given how tight the clearances are in reality, although I have a Trumpeter one to build up and test.

 

Regards,

 

Stu

[217 RIVER FLESK]

Out of interest, what sought of military vehicle would have been carried on the warwells in the late '50s - '60s? Also what would their livery have been? Still on lone to GWR / LMS / LNER?? One other question, how many were sold on to BR & hence had BR colours?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mike C

[Fat Controller]

Out of interest, what sought of military vehicle would have been carried on the warwells in the late '50s - '60s? Also what would their livery have been? Still on lone to GWR / LMS / LNER?? One other question, how many were sold on to BR & hence had BR colours?

 

Thanks in advance

 

Mike C

The sort of vehicle carried would vary widely. It might be a 'soft-top' such as a Bedford RL, Commer or Ford, which would be out-of-gauge with tilt up on a flat wagon. It could be a Saracen or Saladin wheeled AFV, or some sort of Royal Engineers' plant (from dump truck to road roller). The plant might turn up anywhere where there was an Army presence; Llandovery and Carmarthen come to mind.

The wagons retained by the MoD would have retained some sort of olive green or khaki colour scheme. The wagons bought by BR were a very mixed fleet of several hundred vehicles of different types; Warflats and Warwells predominated, but there were also some six-axle well-wagons (which became Flat WLL and ELL), designed to carry the M6 heavy tank, and also some ramp wagons. Most seemed to have been repainted fairly quickly into BR colours, but many retained ownership plates with something like 'On Loan to BR (WR)', even though they had been purchased many years before. The fleet of Warflats and Flat WLL that worked out of British Steel Landore into the late 1970s certainly retained these, along with side-chains on some wagons, though the end jacks had gone.

[Fat Controller]

Have a couple of Warriors built waiting for these but still unsure whether to wait for Oxford or take plunge with these.

 

Another interesting load I'd like to model is the digger carrying warwell (I assume it's a warwell) as seen on engineering trains a few years ago:

https://flic.kr/p/nS8xjT

 

Does anyone have any closer pics of these, particularly the ramps?

As someone else pointed out, these are purpose-built vehicles, intended to replace the fleet of elderly unfitted, or vacuum-braked, Flatrols and Lowmacs used to move engineers' plant to relaying sites. There are a couple of photos here:- https://ukrailwaypics.smugmug.com/UKRailRollingstock/K-Tops-codes/KWA-engineers-plant-carriers/

and here:- https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5855900643/in/album-72157627008284776/

The delivery of these vehicles coincided with a vast increase in the range of road-rail plant, which meant they seem to be largely superfluous.

[PhilJ W]

The 3 (later4) ton army lorries allways travelled with the tilt removed, even on Warwell and Lomac wagons. The reason being that they were still out of gauge with the tilt up.

[Fat Controller]

The 3 (later4) ton army lorries allways travelled with the tilt removed, even on Warwell and Lomac wagons. The reason being that they were still out of gauge with the tilt up.

I did find this shot of a Bedford, canvas absent, but tilt hoops in 'low' position :-

https://www.flickr.com/photos/brianews/5856453470/in/album-72157627008284776/