Things You Thought You'd Never See - Bullied Pacific and A4 together

[Andy Kirkham]

Dalston Eastern Junction. 34100 & special train from Margate to York. 4.10.62 by Roger Joanes, on Flickr

[Unicorn1]

I love photos showing A4s shunting, something I don't seem to see modelled very often.

Les

[Bulleidnutter]

Unicorn. The A4 isn't shunting. The Bulleid wiill keep going to probably a ground signal and the A4 will then reverse out of the siding, onto the back of this train and take it northwards.

[Andy Kirkham]

And another rarity from this rather excellent collection: a steam-hauled passenger train on the Western Region towards the end of 1966.

Castle Cary. 76011 & train for Westbury. 28.10.66 by Roger Joanes, on Flickr

[Andy Kirkham]

And another: one of those legendary steam-hauled freights to Westbury on the very last day of Southen steam

Yeovil Pen Mill. 34052 & northbound freight train. 9.7.67 by Roger Joanes, on Flickr

[Mallard60022]

Nice ones, especially as it involves BRSR loco's; thanks.

Phil

[TheSignalEngineer]

I doubt Bulleid Pacifics were often piloted by Stanier 8Fs but it happened three times in an hour between Stourbridge Junction and Snow Hill on 27th April 1963 

[Mallard60022]

I doubt Bulleid Pacifics were often piloted by Stanier 8Fs but it happened three times in an hour between Stourbridge Junction and Snow Hill on 27th April 1963 

Ah, the F.A. Cup Semi Finals at Villa Park?

Philth

[Ian J.]

Dalston Eastern Junction. 34100 & special train from Margate to York. 4.10.62 by Roger Joanes, on Flickr

 

Some good images in the thread so far. I particularly noted the first one though, as I know of the area from living in Stratford for 11 years until last year. I travelled along that route occasionally and didn't know there was an Eastern Junction at Dalston! The Bulleid seems to be coming in from the West, so I wonder what the route was that the Margate - York train took through London?

[bike2steam]

Probably Clapham J, Kensington Olympia, Willesden High Level, NLR to Dalston Eastern Junction ( for the long defunct services from Broad Street to Poplar, Devons Road, and the Docks), then reverse to Canonbury Junction, and Finsbury Park.

[Fat Controller]

Some good images in the thread so far. I particularly noted the first one though, as I know of the area from living in Stratford for 11 years until last year. I travelled along that route occasionally and didn't know there was an Eastern Junction at Dalston! The Bulleid seems to be coming in from the West, so I wonder what the route was that the Margate - York train took through London?

The train would have come in from the west via the North London Line. What I cannot work out from Quail is where Dalston Eastern Junction would have been. The line for Finsbury Park and the ECML branches off at Canonbury West Jct. Immediately east of that is Canonbury East Jct (though that may be recent), then Dalston Western Junction (western end of Kingsland Road station). The next junction, going eastwards, is Navarino Road Junction, where the line towards Liverpool St branches off.

Looking at the second edition of 'Railway Atlas Then and Now', the line to and from Broad Street forms a trianglar junction with the NLL; would Eastern Jct have been the eastern end of this triangle? What does strike me as odd is there don't seem to be any very obvious north- west junctions between the ECML and the NLL; surely there was something in the area due north of King's Cross?

[bike2steam]

Another 'I wish I had my camera' moment was seeing Bulleid pacifics at Oxley shed on a few occasions ( 34005, and 34087 amongst others). 

[Grovenor]

 

What I cannot work out from Quail is where Dalston Eastern Junction would have been.

See http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=51.5474&lon=-0.0735&layers=176&b=1

Use the transparency slider over on the left to see the present day!

Actually that shows the older layout, this one shows it as in the photo which must have been taken from the dalston Lane bridge.

http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=18&lat=51.5480&lon=-0.0705&layers=173&b=1

Regards

[keefer]

bit about Dalston Junction here: http://www.abandonedstations.org.uk/Broad_Street_line_4.html

 

and here: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/d/dalston_junction/index.shtml

[Joseph_Pestell]

The train would have come in from the west via the North London Line. What I cannot work out from Quail is where Dalston Eastern Junction would have been. The line for Finsbury Park and the ECML branches off at Canonbury West Jct. Immediately east of that is Canonbury East Jct (though that may be recent), then Dalston Western Junction (western end of Kingsland Road station). The next junction, going eastwards, is Navarino Road Junction, where the line towards Liverpool St branches off.

Looking at the second edition of 'Railway Atlas Then and Now', the line to and from Broad Street forms a trianglar junction with the NLL; would Eastern Jct have been the eastern end of this triangle? What does strike me as odd is there don't seem to be any very obvious north- west junctions between the ECML and the NLL; surely there was something in the area due north of King's Cross?

 

Yes, there is a chord from the NLL to the ECML and also one from the T&H. But using either would mean changing locos at a busier location where it would cause delay to other services. At the time of the photo, Dalston East would have been on a freight only line.

 

It's not the only time that an A4 and Bulleid Pacifics would have been seen together. An A4 made a celebrated excursion to Weymouth in the early 60s.

[Mallard60022]

Yes, there is a chord from the NLL to the ECML and also one from the T&H. But using either would mean changing locos at a busier location where it would cause delay to other services. At the time of the photo, Dalston East would have been on a freight only line.

 

It's not the only time that an A4 and Bulleid Pacifics would have been seen together. An A4 made a celebrated excursion to Weymouth in the early 60s.

Also '22 went west on the SR main from Waterloo to Exeter in Feb '63 and then '24 did the same in '64. There were other A4 incursions further east and west on the SR but I have not got details to hand. Also do not forget the '48 Exchanges and Bulleids up the ECML.

Did I ever see them doing this? Nope!

Phil

[keefer]

Did any A4s ever make it south via the East London Line?

(ie into Liverpool St, reverse then out via Bishopsgate Jn and Shoreditch etc)

I suppose the first question with that would be did any A4s get to Liverpool St?

[Joseph_Pestell]

Did any A4s ever make it south via the East London Line?

(ie into Liverpool St, reverse then out via Bishopsgate Jn and Shoreditch etc)

I suppose the first question with that would be did any A4s get to Liverpool St?

I think that there would be gauging issues taking an A4 along the East London Line. I have only ever seen small locos photographed on it.

[Andy Kirkham]

I've received an email from the photographer Roger Joanes, who adds more information about the Bulleid/A4 working and wonders if we might together deduce any more about it:

 

Hello Andy,

I'm not a member of RM WEB but having looked at the correspondence about this train I thought you might like to share some more detail with members. We might then find out exactly who or what the train was for. It was clearly something of a one-off charter special, but not for railway enthusiasts.

Prior to taking those photos at Dalston I photographed the same train at Beckenham Junction, where it arrived from Kent behind electric loco no. 20003. No. 34100 took over at Beckenham Junction for the run to Dalston, which must have been via the West London line. I travelled direct across central London and so got to Dalston first. My notes with the photos say it was Margate to York, with the intermediate places mentioned being Shorncliffe (now called Folkestone West) and Peterborough. So why Shorncliffe rather than Folkestone? Who were the passengers? Perhaps military?

I was tipped off that this was running by a friend who worked in 'Special Traffic' who thought it was an interesting working.

Best wishes, Roger Joanes

 

I think it's noteworthy that this was not an enthusiast's special, which puts it in a different category to the consciously selected "novelty" motive power of, say, the A4 that visited Weymouth. Roger's following picture shows that 60008 was in sparkling condition, and I wonder if its name Dwight D.Eisenhower might have been significant. Could it have been laid on for some American VIP party?

Dalston Western Junction. 60008 & special train from Margate. 4.10.62 by Roger Joanes, on Flickr

[TheSignalEngineer]

Military is a possibility. My mother was in the Army based at Shorncliffe in 1944-5. When she left the Army in 1947 she was demobbed at Fulford Barracks, York.

 

In the 1960s two types of special workings, other than Footex and Crankex, stick in my memory. These were the 'Saga' trains from the North-east to the South Coast and military specials, Army for TA Camps or when a unit moved to or from Germany, Navy when a ship docked and the crew was stood down. The latter sometimes took Bulleid stock from Portsmouth or Devonport to far-flung parts of the country

[Andy Kirkham]

Military is a possibility. My mother was in the Army based at Shorncliffe in 1944-5. When she left the Army in 1947 she was demobbed at Fulford Barracks, York.

 

In the 1960s two types of special workings, other than Footex and Crankex, stick in my memory. These were the 'Saga' trains from the North-east to the South Coast and military specials, Army for TA Camps or when a unit moved to or from Germany, Navy when a ship docked and the crew was stood down. The latter sometimes took Bulleid stock from Portsmouth or Devonport to far-flung parts of the country

Yes I see that Shorncliffe is a major barracks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorncliffe_Army_Camp (which I'd never heard of before). That seems to strongly support the idea that this is a troop train.

[Fat Controller]

Yes I see that Shorncliffe is a major barracks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shorncliffe_Army_Camp (which I'd never heard of before). That seems to strongly support the idea that this is a troop train.

It may have been a troop train, but Folkestone West is also, even now, better suited to dealing with large numbers of baggage-encumbered holiday makers than Central. It has level access on both Up and Down sides, with space for lots of vehicles to drop off or collect passengers. Central, in comparison, is on a relatively narrow cul-de-sac, unsuited to access by buses or coaches. Passengers would then have had to proceed up ramps to fairly narrow platforms; not ideal for families with lots of baggage, such as prams and pushchairs. It was these accessability problems that led to FKW, rather than FKC, being used as the centre for rail-replacement buses during the recent breach of the Dover line, and to its use by the Orient Express. Further, at the time the photo was taken, it would have been used only by one stopping train per hour, with Boat Trains, Expresses and goods trains being able to use the centre roads, giving a longer dwell-time for holiday-makers.

[stewartingram]

I seem to recasll from the mags at the time (TI or MRlys?) that a Bulleid Pacific made it through to Shoeburyness on a troop train, somewhere around 1962 I'd guess. Anybody know more?

 

Also, OT but SR related:

I was around that time living in sight of the St.Ives loop, between Milton Road LC and Chesterton Junction, Cambridge. (This is the section that is now being converted to the misguided busway extension to the new statiuon at Cambridge North). The track was double (ie up/down) past the old military depot west of the LC, then shortly after the LC became 4 tracks (ie with up & down loops) to Chesterton Junction. In those days this loop was a busy route.

Anyway, one day a WD 2-8-0 drifted over the crossing and into the up loop, where it stood for ages, probably waiting to be overtaken, and/or a clearance on to the main line from Ely. What it was hauling was of interest. 20 - yes twenty - Mk1 coaches in SR green livery. I'm certain they were ECS, and suspect they were new build from somewhere up north, possibly even emus, I really don't know.

 

Stewart

[keefer]

When was that Stewart?

Might be mentioned in the RO or similar

[stewartingram]

I reckon that it was 1962, at the very earliest 1959 but unlikely before 1960.

 

Stewart