Building a BSL/Phoenix GWR coach - Help?

[OnTheBranchline]

Hi everyone,

 

I recently bought three BSL/Phoenix GWR kits on Ebay:

1) A 57' Corridor Third

2) A 57' Corridor First and Third

3) A 57' Restaurant Car

 

These kits are the older version and have wooden rooves.

 

Does anyone have any tips for building these kits? Is there a guide to building these particular coaches? I have searched RMWeb for pictures but I have not found too many.

 

I know the kit can be glue assembled and that there are no bogies or underframes but which can be purchased from 247 Developments. What are the other parts that I would have to order separately?

 

Thank you in advance.

[hayfield]

One of the Wild Swann coach modelling publications cover these kits, well worth getting as these coaches can be detailed to quite a high standard

 

Comet coaches do chassis (and roofs) for these as well as lots of other detailing parts

[MikeTrice]

One of the Wild Swann coach modelling publications cover these kits, well worth getting as these coaches can be detailed to quite a high standard

"The 4mm Coach Part Two" by Stephen Williams

[Dai Davies]

These are the older versions if they have wooden rooves. That means they have different ends from the later ones. The later ones have metal rooves that fit over sides and ends, whereas the wooden ones fit over the sides but between the ends. In my experience, the wooden rooves are often a poor fit: warped, too thick at one end, etc. So I would look to see if another roof can be fettled to fit instead.

Also, the older models don't have scribed doors,etc, so look at doing that before you assemble and paint.

Re bogies,etc: you'll struggle to get 247 bogies, so I would look at Bachmann, Replica, Dapol bogies from b-sets, Collette, and others. Check whether you have the plastic windows frames and drop lights: I think you can get these from the current owners of the BSL range, Southern Coach Preservation Society or whatever they are called?

[OnTheBranchline]

These are the older versions if they have wooden rooves. That means they have different ends from the later ones. The later ones have metal rooves that fit over sides and ends, whereas the wooden ones fit over the sides but between the ends. In my experience, the wooden rooves are often a poor fit: warped, too thick at one end, etc. So I would look to see if another roof can be fettled to fit instead.

Also, the older models don't have scribed doors,etc, so look at doing that before you assemble and paint.

Re bogies,etc: you'll struggle to get 247 bogies, so I would look at Bachmann, Replica, Dapol bogies from b-sets, Collette, and others. Check whether you have the plastic windows frames and drop lights: I think you can get these from the current owners of the BSL range, Southern Coach Preservation Society or whatever they are called?

 

 

How do you do that?

[Steamport Southport]

Good luck getting anything from BSLs current owners. Some of us have been trying for quite a while.

 

Here's the website though http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/

 

 

For parts try Comet/Wizard, MJT/Dart Castings, Lanarkshire Model Supplies,

 

I definitely recommend the Wild Swan books, particularly the first two. Don't pay over the odds on Amazon for them though. I picked them up for about £10 each on Ebay.

 

 

Jason

[rovex]

One problem with replacing the roof is as I understand it that the sides may not then appear high enough. I was God that when the moved to mettle roofs they heightened the sides to compensate for the fact that the metal roof fitted over the side of the sides whilst the wooden roof fitted on top

[Edwardian]

Good luck getting anything from BSLs current owners. Some of us have been trying for quite a while.

 

Here's the website though http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/

 

 

 

 

Every attempt at communication has been resolutely ignored.  Like Coopercraft, it's another sad case of useful kits appearing into a Black Hole.

[hayfield]

Good luck getting anything from BSLs current owners. Some of us have been trying for quite a while.

 

Here's the website though http://www.srg.org.uk/phoenix/

 

 

For parts try Comet/Wizard, MJT/Dart Castings, Lanarkshire Model Supplies,

 

I definitely recommend the Wild Swan books, particularly the first two. Don't pay over the odds on Amazon for them though. I picked them up for about £10 each on Ebay.

 

 

Jason

On eBay now

 

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/THE-4mm-COACH-PART-2-WORKING-WITH-METAL-KITS-by-Stephen-Williams-2000-/291910582370?hash=item43f73a0062:g:6d4AAOSwNRdYAMT9

[hayfield]

I think the one thing is not to get carried away with buying too many extra parts, as in the end it may be cheaper buying a new complete Comet coach kit. Certainly replacing the roof for a metal one is a good move, though I doubt if you could get an exact match and end up cutting  the ends to fit the new extrusion, a plasticard new roof might be an alternative option

 

Some under-frame details could be made from plasticard or metal strip, roof and under-frame furniture can be bought from the likes of Comet. Look out on eBay I have bought plenty of castings very cheaply, I have found Bachmann bogies excellent and good value if the correct one is available, Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from making items where ever possiable

 

I was surprised at how much the Wild Swan coach books are going for and as for those jokers on Amazon wanting 3 figures !!, other places are the (local) model railway shows etc

[OnTheBranchline]

I think the one thing is not to get carried away with buying too many extra parts, as in the end it may be cheaper buying a new complete Comet coach kit. Certainly replacing the roof for a metal one is a good move, though I doubt if you could get an exact match and end up cutting the ends to fit the new extrusion, a plasticard new roof might be an alternative option

 

Some under-frame details could be made from plasticard or metal strip, roof and under-frame furniture can be bought from the likes of Comet. Look out on eBay I have bought plenty of castings very cheaply, I have found Bachmann bogies excellent and good value if the correct one is available, Personally I get a lot of enjoyment from making items where ever possiable

 

I was surprised at how much the Wild Swan coach books are going for and as for those jokers on Amazon wanting 3 figures !!, other places are the (local) model railway shows etc

Unfortunately I do not live in the UK so I guess it's the Internet for me.

[hayfield]

Unfortunately I do not live in the UK so I guess it's the Internet for me.

 

eBay can be a good source of parts cheaply, the other alternative is to find a donor coach which could be cut and shut, you may be forced to improvise a bit and do a bit of scratch building parts

[chrisf]

You will probably find that the MJT extruded roof is a better match than the Comet one.

 

Chris

[Dai Davies]

How do you do that?

You can buy a scriber from shows, model shops, Eileen's Emporium,etc; but any sharp pointed metal device will do - even scalpel blades, though they lose their sharpness very quickly! The aluminium sides do scribe pretty easily.

 

Coming back to a few points others have been raising, eBay is as good a source as any for bits. The new Hornby coaches will probably knock the spots off anything that can be conjured up by normal people from kits. Your kits would be better for the earlier Collett 57' coaches where the sides weren't flushglazed.

[Coach bogie]

For the cost of the parts/availability, it is just as economical to buy a new Hornby Collett coach and use the parts.

 

Here is a Brake compo with a BSL body on Hornby underframe, using a BR livery Hornby coach picked up for £34 at a show.

.

 

The wooden roof is not the best starting point, (but the wooden roof kits are approaching 45 years old). By making up the sides/ends, then permanently glueing the roof on, Prime the roof with PVA to fill in the grain, fill the gap between end and roof with Milliput (a gentle tap with a pin hammer butt fits the ends to the wooden roof) and spending many hours gently sanding the roof down until totally smooth and the grain is no longer apparent. This one has a wooden roof and a reasonable job can be made but it need patience. Doors are scribed with a blunt Stanley knife blade and T square. Hinges from microstrip, roof castings as per the body kit, handrails .35 brass wire, door handles from Geen/Comet. The area to be careful with is the rainstrip and this is very thin and can break off, especially when cutting the roof to size. I use a mitre saw with scrap wood either side to protect the rainstrip.

 

The top four all have a wooden roof. Most of these, I have put these on hold, as I can buy several of them rtr for less than the completion costs, and can redeploy my modelling time to building coaches not currently available.

 

The older BSL bodies are a good starting point if you are new to building your own. If you do change the roof, you will have to reprofile the ends or use new ends as the BSL ones will be too tall to use

with most replacement sections.

 

Good luck and enjoy.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

 

[OnTheBranchline]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for all of the advice so far. From reading the comments, I feel like I've made a mistake buying such an old and incomplete kit. It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

Edited October 23, 2016 by OnTheBranchline

[chrisf]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for all of the advice so far. From reading the comments, I feel like I've made a mistake buying such an old and incomplete kit. It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

 

He doesn't even offer the kit now.

 

Chris

[kandc_au]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for all of the advice so far. From reading the comments, I feel like I've made a mistake buying such an old and incomplete kit. It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

Why?

With the cottage industry you had / have in the UK, you could source everything needed, and at the end of the day, supplying of vehicles of any type was and is a bonus to modellers as a whole, both in days gone by and present.

In 40 odd years there have been vast improvements in the ways things are made and technology, so you are not being fair on comparing apples with banana's!

 

Khris

[hayfield]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for all of the advice so far. From reading the comments, I feel like I've made a mistake buying such an old and incomplete kit. It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

 

These kits were made in a time of austerity, and well known for being a bodyline kit. They also had availible the correct bogies and generic underframe trusses and underframe details, both of these were plastic. At this time loco kits were either sold as bodyline or the chassis were available, until the likes of K's arrived on the scene

 

You have a complete coach body kit(s), the trusses and battery boxes are easily made from either metal or plastic strip, the bogies are available as either RTR spares or kits. Other details like door knobs and grab handles are easily made from pins and wire, It would be preferable to either make new plastic roofs (quite easy from plasticard) or buy some Ali extrusions. Bogies from eBay  http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/36-010-Bachmann-OO-HO-Gauge-Collett-Bogies-x2-/262250459383?hash=item3d0f5870f7:g:TbcAAOSw5dNWogku. You will also need some paint (Phoenix etc) and some HMRS transfers.

 

These are great kits if you want to do some model making, if not sell them and either buy some RTR coaches,  simpler Ratio plastic coach kits or a more comprehensive Comet coach kit.

 

Lets remember Comet coaches first made etched sides, which after a period had the ends and chassis etching made available as well as castings, eventually building up into a whole range of etchings and castings, the complete kits came along later

[Coach bogie]

Hello everyone,

 

Thank you for all of the advice so far. From reading the comments, I feel like I've made a mistake buying such an old and incomplete kit. It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

At bit harsh in my opinion. to add to Hayfield's and others comments, you are being critical of a product produced for a 1960/70 market.

 

It should be remembered that Ron Coleman had a day job and a family to feed. BSL (Biggs Switchgear Limited") was his main profession that paid the bills. Ron DID offer underframe, seating, all in plastic to keep weight down, and a large variety of cast bogies. He left it to the purchaser to decide what he/she wanted, just as Comet do today. When BSL started he was the ONLY business with a large range of bogies and the only source for the 7ft bogies you need. A big seller, and a reminder of how the hobby was, Ron produced GWR Dean bogies with a specially engineered bogie pin/bolt mech to direct fit them in the large rivet hole in Triang clerestories. From some of the threads, there are are many modellers who could do with this option today. There are many coaches Ron produced that are still not available from any other source. Try building a complete Torbay Express of 1929 stock now and see how far you get.

 

I am very defensive of BSL, as he set the standards for what we all take for granted today. Below is a centenary diner, built at the time Airfix were just starting up with their range. The kit had already been available for many years. All the recessed door sections are pressed in position, ie ONE complete side - no soldering/gluing of all the different rebates into position.He kept it simple and achievable. All the parts were obtained from BSL. The gas tanks came with the body kit.

 

 

I can still feel the excitement of walking out of Eames at Reading. My dad had taken me to buy a K's autocoach kit as I had been pestering him. The chap in Eames was non to complimentary and showed me a BSL autocoach kit. I noticed a huge range of others on the shelf. Down came a selection. "70 FOOTERS" for a teenager who could only buy Triang MK 1 based stock as it was all that was available. And thy were all glue construction. Dad must have been in a good mood as I walked out with two with all the parts needed to finish (but no autocoach - fickle teenagers!).

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited October 23, 2016 by Coach bogie

[Devo63]

I have built a number of these over the years and, considering the era in which they originated, they do build up to be very attractive models. In my current build of a South Wales 70 foot set most of the kits are the later aluminium roof versions but I do have one wooden roof Van 3rd. The sides stampings are about 1mm less in height the the later production kits which means that it will not easy to replace the roof. Luckily for me the wooden roof has no apparent warping (last time I checked) so should be quite usable when properly filled and sanded. I have seen quite a few of the early kits built up and it is hard to tell if they were fitted with a wooden roof or not. For scribing the doors I use a cheap splinter removal probe bought from the chemist with a small strip of brass which I have curved to the tumblehome profile as a guide. These days I use etched brass grab rails and door handles from Roxey Mouldings for detailing after spending years bending them up myself with no two actually being the same size. I also use Brassmasters window grills for the vans. 

 

Once the South Wales set are finished my next project will be seven 1938 prototypes (D127, E159, C77, E160, A22 and two H.55 Buffets - don't know how I ended up with 2 of them) followed by two K.38 'Ocean Mails' vans (1 BSL & 1 Westward). 

 

Dave R.

 

Edited to add another coach.    Just going through the box of coach kits and found a BSL Super Saloon to add to the list.

Edited October 23, 2016 by Devo63

[hayfield]

Hello everyone,

 

 It is irritating (at least to me) that a manufacturer would even offer such a package without the bogies or underframe detail.

 

You have some kits which others would like, I can understand that if you expected a complete kit it must be a bit disappointing, but to all intensive purposes other than 3 pairs of bogies and some bits of plastic sheet you have a complete coach kit. Its a simple case of not quite knowing what you were buying. I think I have in my spares box some underframe trusses and underframe detail packs, but they are generic. But far better underframe trusses can be made very easily by using plastic or metal L sections

 

The other parts are easily obtained / made I would take a step backwards and have a re-think, they are very rewarding kits to build

[lofty1966]

I do so love the encouragement from veteran modellers to the inexperienced learning noobs <cough>

[OnTheBranchline]

Thank you for your encouragement. I think I just panicked a little when I first read about the deficiencies of the kits. We'll just wait and see when the kits arrive.

 

Just to confirm for the 57' Corridor Third and 57' Corridor First and Third, are these offered by Hornby?

[Dai Davies]

Thank you for your encouragement. I think I just panicked a little when I first read about the deficiencies of the kits. We'll just wait and see when the kits arrive.

 

Just to confirm for the 57' Corridor Third and 57' Corridor First and Third, are these offered by Hornby?

Yep, Hornby do both in the new range. Make sure you buy the new range, not the old (which is still sold under the Railroad range, second hand,etc). The new range is excellent, and includes all 3rd, composite and brake thirds; but does not include restaurant car, full brake. You would expect to buy this range new, not second hand, and you would expect to pay £35-40 each plus postage. They come in GWR and BR colours (crimson/c ream).

 

But to reiterate, you can make very good models from your kits, just make sure your rooves fit well! All the best.