Grasshopper John Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Currently reading this as it was recommended to me by one of the drivers on the 'Laal Ratty' ( Ravenglass & Eskdale Railway ). Although it highlights classic railway disasters I think it's main aim is to point out the complete failings of the pioneers of the Railway when it came to safety, most of what I've read ALL falls down to human error, I suppose if it wasn't for all the failings in those early years we wouldn't have the exceptional safety we have nowadays. Thoroughly recommended. Grasshopper J. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatB Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I first read Red For Danger over 30 years ago and still return to it now and again (although I'm not sure where my copy is at the moment). I think the main point of the book is to summarise the development of the systems which go towards eliminating human error and to show the nature of the investigations into the root causes of accidents which have underpinned this development. It's interesting to compare RFD with O S Nock's similar work (whose title I now forget and which I don't have), which gives a slightly different perspective and is also well worth a read. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2016 I have a paperback copy that's at least 40 years old. A very well written book. My main reading of it is showing how well the HMRI did. I prefer it to Nock's book. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 ...Although it highlights classic railway disasters I think it's main aim is to point out the complete failings of the pioneers of the Railway when it came to safety,.. "The past is a foreign country, they did things differently there." The dangers of everyday life at the time were unimaginably more severe. A statistic from a slightly later period collected by Henry Mayhew, estimated the annual deaths in London directly attributable to the horse, as comparable to the entire present UK annual road fatalites. So any form of transport mechanisation that reduced horse use would probably make a major net contribution to safety, and this despite the set of new hazards it presented. And those new hazards had to be discovered by experience, there really wasn't very much to guide the railway pioneers beyond the fairly obvious 'don't let it hit it you!'. With the famous Dr Dionysius Lardner - a scientist of genuine repute - going around proposing a speed limit on trains to prevent suffocation among other things, gathering the evidence of what it was sensible to improve, and what might be disregarded wasn't entirely straightforward. (Perhaps one of Brunel's greatest achievements was demonstrating that Lardner had an unfailing instinct for barking up the wrong trees.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 I'm not really sure exactly how many years have passed since I first read 'Red For Danger' but it is definitely more than 50 and it's a tribute to Tom Rolt's penmanship that his book helped decide not only the sort of employment I wanted but specialisation within that employment and an interest in particular areas such as procedures and safety which remains with me to this day. The book was written with a carefully added degree of romanticism, and occasional slight bending of less important facts, which not only helped make it more readable but added a human touch as well as carefully demonstrating how & why railway safety had improved and the role the Inspectorate had played in those improvements and the development of legislation. In later years I must admit to finding one thing slightly odd about Rolt's approach where generally he avoided naming people who might still have been expected to be in railway employment at the time he wrote the book but oddly in some cases he did name such people - maybe he thought they would have been dismissed? But for all that, and the occasional errors and omissions of facts, it remains a marvellous book and one I would always commend to anybody with a real interest in railways stretching beyond collecting engine numbers or simply watching trains go by and of course it helps convey much of the atmosphere, good or bad, of 'the old railway'. And if you really want to find out about the bits he altered for - usually - dramatic effect then go to The Railways Archive and search out the original Inspecting Officers' Reports, they too can make fascinating reading. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 “I would prefer an occasional Penistone than be compelled by Government to fit something I did not want.” Sir Edward Watkin (allegedly) on the Board of Trade’s recommendation that passenger trains be fitted with continuous automatic brakes. 24 passengers were killed at Penistone, the Hexthorpe collision three years later (25 killed) did not alter his opinion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I first read Red For Danger over 30 years ago and still return to it now and again (although I'm not sure where my copy is at the moment). I think the main point of the book is to summarise the development of the systems which go towards eliminating human error and to show the nature of the investigations into the root causes of accidents which have underpinned this development. It's interesting to compare RFD with O S Nock's similar work (whose title I now forget and which I don't have), which gives a slightly different perspective and is also well worth a read. I've got both works but, thought thinking I could lay my hands on then instantly, I find I don't remember where I put them! Or the title of OS Nock's book either, though that is of particular interest in that he describes a serious railway accident that he was personally involved in as a passenger, involving a high speed transfer from a slow line to the main line at Foxhall Junction, Didcot in September 1967, which resulted in a fatality and 33 injuries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 “I would prefer an occasional Penistone than be compelled by Government to fit something I did not want.” Sir Edward Watkin (allegedly) on the Board of Trade’s recommendation that passenger trains be fitted with continuous automatic brakes. 24 passengers were killed at Penistone, the Hexthorpe collision three years later (25 killed) did not alter his opinion. Was there not an American car that had the petrol (gas!) tank at the front and was liable to explode in flames in the event of a collision? The manufacturers at one stage thought it was cheaper to pay the legal bills and possible compensation liabilities rather the cost of a recall and redesign. Very cynical but also typical of the ethics of big business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hroth Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Was there not an American car that had the petrol (gas!) tank at the front and was liable to explode in flames in the event of a collision? The manufacturers at one stage thought it was cheaper to pay the legal bills and possible compensation liabilities rather the cost of a recall and redesign. Very cynical but also typical of the ethics of big business. I think that was the early 70's Ford Pinto, that had the fuel tank in the boot, just behind the rear bumper and was liable to burst into flames if rear-ended. Ford had evidently had this fact drawn to their attention and had made a calculation that it would be cheaper to pay compensation for any subsequent deaths than make the design changes that would improve rear-end safety. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold stovepipe Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 Most of Tom Rolt's books are worth a read. I particularly enjoyed his autobiography, The Landscape Trilogy, Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Happy Hippo Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 I believe the OS Nock book was 'Historic Railway Disasters'. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steamport Southport Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Historic Railway Disasters by OS Nock. Pipped to the post. Jason Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 “I would prefer an occasional Penistone than be compelled by Government to fit something I did not want.”Sir Edward Watkin (allegedly) on the Board of Trade’s recommendation that passenger trains be fitted with continuous automatic brakes. 24 passengers were killed at Penistone, the Hexthorpe collision three years later (25 killed) did not alter his opinion.It took 80 deaths at Armagh to make such brakes law. My Father introduced me to RFD over 50 years ago. I found it fascinating then and find it fascinating now. I must have read it three or four times and thoroughly recommend it to everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ohmisterporter Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 A significant factor about the Armagh disaster was that so many children were killed. Part of human psyche says that if adults are killed in an accident we are sympathetic but move on. If children are involved we demand something is done about it. Just as true in Victorian times as now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium uax6 Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2016 Adrian Vaughan's version is also a good read, and is the one I would take to the box to throw at a new signallers as it has more modern accidents in it, although I am a big LTC Rolt fan (I have almost all his books, and I would recommend if you are going to read the landscape trilogy DO NOT get the combined volume, as it is seriously short of the photos that were in the original books! Funnily enough I got my combined volume off the shelf to bring into the box today!). Stanley Melrose's (Is it the same person that's a member on here?) version is again a good read, and nicely divided up, with a lot of other interesting related details, and is one I took to signalling school to flesh out some of the examples used.... I've not read Nocks version.... Andy G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
number6 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 Reading about Rolt's rather romantic life helps put the writing in Red for Danger in some perspective. But very much recommended all the same. I first read it as a child and have returned to it over the years in preference to some more modern books. I have to assume that it sparked my interest in the history of railway accidents and mishaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 Like many above have also enjoyed "Red for Danger" over the last 40 years and still return to it. Helped me understand railway safety systems Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold TheSignalEngineer Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 20, 2016 Red for Danger and Historic Railway Disasters were required reading for my signal engineering trainees. As time went on the other more modern books took up the mantle but there were still parts of the older two that we discussed at length. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jjb1970 Posted October 20, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 20, 2016 Another good rail disaster book is "The Beautiful Railway Bridge of the Silvery Tay - Reinvestigating the Tay Bridge Disaster of 1879" by Peter Lewis Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darrel Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 I've read red for danger many times. Pity it's not available for kindle. I'm halfway through reading my paperback again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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