Graham Farish Split Gears again

[Chris Higgs]

Obviously a few people have had problems but it's not a widespread issue as Bachmann have assured me that they don't get many people in contact with the service department. The view is that if locos are used regularly and maintained properly that it is less likely to be an issue.

 

 

Sadly many of us have just accepted it as a normal part of (Farish owning) life. We just go and buy the replacement wheelsets available. Or rewheel them to 2mm Finescale, where proper materials (metal) has been used for the gears.

 

I still cannot for the life of me think of a good engineering reason why not using a model is going to make its gears split. If I keep it in the freezer in the meantime, or cook it, then yes, but otherwise this just sounds like customer service department gobble-dee-goop. A model is not a dog, you shouldn't have to walk it evey day.

Edited November 1, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Georgeconna]

Obviously a few people have had problems but it's not a widespread issue as Bachmann have assured me that they don't get many people in contact with the service department. The view is that if locos are used regularly and maintained properly that it is less likely to be an issue.

 

The number of viewers of a topic is no indication of a quantity of people who may have a problem; people read all sorts of different topics to see what's happening within the hobby. I therefore wouldn't want to see a topic used as a campaigning ground to summon up the villagers with torches and pitchforks.

 

Some of those 80 topics you mention have absolutely nothing to do with split gears on Farish products so that cannot be taken as fact - there is a smaller number of topics which contain relevant content to the issue, it's just picking up permutations of content e.g. http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/86785-replacing-triang-Hornby-x04s-with-gearboxes/?hl=%2Bfarish+%2Bsplit+%2Bgears&do=findComment&comment=1479586

 

 

For the Record I got split gears on some GF Diesel models. I did not contact GF or put a post up here. Just bought replacements. Not everyone uses RMWEB on the model world either so the problem may be much more widespread that you know. The locos were not lubed by additional oil either.

 

As for companies assuring you. I really would not trust everything they say either.....They tell you want you want to hear.

[njee20]

 

 

Not everyone uses RMWEB on the model world either so the problem may be much more widespread that you know.

 

The converse of course also being true - the proportion of the modelling population who don't use RMWeb aren't here to say "it's never happened to me".

[Andy Y]

To help look at this more objectively if anyone has had substantial issues could you list what models they are; when they were purchased and whether they have been mainly used or mainly stored?

[woodenhead]

Purely in the interests of compiling data.

 

I have one Blue Bachmann China Farish Class 40 with split gears - it spent a lot of time in a plastic box with intermittent use but always at room temperature.

 

I possibly have one other split gear diesel but it is unconfirmed and they are all away now in their original boxes for reasons explained elsewhere.

 

This is out of 10 Farish diesels but I wasn't a prolific buyer of Farish diesels so saying that 10-20% of my diesels have split gears whilst factually correct is maybe over egging the issue. (edit to add in number of locos).

Edited November 1, 2016 by woodenhead

[fezza]

Bach Farish - 37, 47, 57, 66... (although friends have also had problems with 24/5s)

 

Old Farish - pretty much everything except my 20 and metal-geared 101s

 

Some were like it out of storage, most after fairly regular use.

[Chris Higgs]

To help look at this more objectively if anyone has had substantial issues could you list what models they are; when they were purchased and whether they have been mainly used or mainly stored?

 

I would also suggest people give some idea of what proportion of their models have had problems.

[PaulCheffus]

Hi

 

A pair of the Farish by Bachmann old style class 20s that have suffered on all 8 axles moderate running with several weeks in storage

Poole manufactured class 101 several split gears

Poole manufactured class 40 several split gears

Farish by Bachmann class 31 one split gear.

 

So five locos out of a total of twenty five (not including other manufacturers)

 

I haven't run my locos for the last year or so as I haven't had the time so there could possibly be others now.

 

All locos are kept all the time in a centrally heated house and lubricated sparingly with Mager Oil.

 

Cheers

 

Paul

[woodenhead]

Old Farish - pretty much everything except my 20 and metal-geared 101s

We can't really use 20 year old Poole models as representative of anything Bachmann produce now.

Edited November 1, 2016 by woodenhead

[fezza]

We can't really use 20 year old Poole models as representative of anything Bachmann produce now.

 

I'm not doing so - it is just a point of comparison.  Current Farish models do seem slightly less likely to split gears than Poole models - but only slightly which is not saying much!  That's based on more than twenty years of collecting and running.

[daftbovine]

My locos with split gears are:

 

A Poole Farish 0-6-0 Jinty and a class 33, both bought second hand. The class 33 was bought when they came out and only ever ran in one direction and not very well. The Jinty was bought recently for spares and (is at a guess) 2000 vintage. I also bought a second hand Bachmann Farish Midland Mainline HST set a few years ago and had the loco serviced by BR lines, among other problems it had split gears.

 

The first two have yet to be repaired. The HST has been run occasionally on a club layout and is fine.

 

My newer locos without split gears are:

 

Bachmann Farish (DCC fitted): a Warship, a class 37 and a prototype Deltic, they mainly get run on the club layout every three months or so and are fine too. Most of the time they are kept in their boxes and have been oiled sparingly.

 

I live in Africa and the temperature is usually in the lower twenties centigrade although it can get below zero in the winter.

 

I have always made a point of running my locos smoothly and avoiding sudden changes in direction.

 

I hope this post will be of help and will not muddy the waters.

 

By the way, do Dapol locos ever get split gears?

[grahame]

I still cannot for the life of me think of a good engineering reason why not using a model is going to make its gears split. If I keep it in the freezer in the meantime, or cook it, then yes, but otherwise this just sounds like customer service department gobble-dee-goop. A model is not a dog, you shouldn't have to walk it evey day.

Yes, I do agree. And, if course, you don't always know just how long the model has been sitting on a retailers shelves before purchasing it. Are Bachmann also suggesting that retailers should run all their unsold stock on a regular basis?

 

G.

[njee20]

I have a 90 and a Voyager with split gears, both purchased second hand in that condition, so can't confirm their life before I encountered them!

I have had no such issues with multiple 60s, 66s, 350s, Voyager (another one), 90s (other ones), a 170, 37s, a 57 or a 70. Most are used somewhere between annually and weekly, and are stored either on the layout or boxed in an insulated garage with moderate temperature changes.

I do agree that the frequency of use certainly shouldn't be a factor in this.

[Andy Y]

 

I do agree that the frequency of use certainly shouldn't be a factor in this.

 

Within reasonable parameters I would agree but it's the extremes of several miles a day for 15 years and never having been out of its box for 15 years since it was purchased which do have a bearing on it.

[njee20]

Yes, fair enough, should've caveated to say "within reasonable bounds".

[Steven B]

For what it's worth:

 

Poole era:

Class 56 - all six axles have had split gears. Since replaced with parts from BR Lines.

Class 20 - six models, all have had one or more split gears. Replaced with parts from BR Lines.

Class 47 - two models have had split gears on multiple axles. Replaced with parts from BR Lines.

Class 57xx pannier tank engine - split gear on axle. Sent to BR lines for repair.

Class 101 - Idler gears on end of motor drive shaft split. Replaced with parts from NGS.

 

Current Bachmann:

Class 47 - one model with one split gear. Replaced with part bought from Bachmann's service department.

 

 

Split gears are less of a problem than they used to be. Around 25% of my Poole era models have had one or more split gears. So far I've only had one "Blue Ribbon" model suffer from the problem.

 

All my models are stored in their boxes at normal room temperature - i.e. somewhere between 15 and 20+ C depending on time of year and if the heating's on!

 

Interestingly the 57xx pannier tank only failed after being left in a car for a week where temperatures varied from near freezing at night to mid-high teens during the day.

 

There's no doubt that split gears are a significant source of failure of Poole era models, less so for Bachmann produced models (5% failure compared to 25% out of my sample of models). Dapol, Kato and Fleischmann models stored exactly the same way have not had any problems with split gears so it's clearly something that Farish aren't getting right and still need to address. 

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[Chris Higgs]

There's no doubt that split gears are a significant source of failure of Poole era models, less so for Bachmann produced models (5% failure compared to 25% out of my sample of models). Dapol, Kato and Fleischmann models stored exactly the same way have not had any problems with split gears so it's clearly something that Farish aren't getting right and still need to address. 

 

Most Dapol and Kato models (at least the ones I have) use a plastic gear moulded onto a plastic muff. It's going to take a massive amount of differential expansion to split a muff. And Fleischmann mostly use metal gears. Hence I would say the weakness that Bachmann have (to an extent) and Farish had in the past is choosing materials and a construction method that are going to be prone to failure.

 

Chris

[scruff]

I only have Bachmann made loco's and have suffered split gears in Class 60's and 47's. My loco's are mainly stored in their boxes, kept indoors in a heated room and test run occasionally

 

Cheers

Mark.

[davepallant]

In my list of things to do:

 

66 Shanks Freightliner - Cogs

158 First NorthWestern - Cogs

158 Central - Cogs

158 Wales and West- Cogs

47 Railfreight Distribution - Cogs

66 66135 - Cog jumping

 

Also noted

47 Pride of Toton - "All new wheels" - the wheels were slowly used repairing other 37 and 47 so got a whole new set

57 Scott Tracey - "Only 5 drive axles now"

 

I havent made notes of cogs I have replaced over the years thats just current information and does not include checking all the stock again none of which has run for a year or so now.

 

I will probably have a running session soon and make copious notes for on here.

 

Interesting that no electrics in there (BO-BO-OK?) and definitely no Dapol.

 

Dave

Edited November 2, 2016 by davepallant

[richierich]

I've had issues with split gears on Farish models. Its an issue that drove me away from N gauge in the mid 1990s! However I came back to N, and its disappointing this continues to be a problem, and resolution is not achieved. It also causes the intermediate gears to become damaged (class 66 is a good example), which are tricky to replace because of removing the picks, which when factory installed have the plastic stub melted to form a rivet.

 

All my models are stored at room temperature, which has little variation, so expansion and contraction shouldn't be such an issue.

 

The models where I have had this issue are:-

 

Class 47 (new tooled version)

Class 57 - The gear on every wheelset failed.

Class 60

Class 66

Class 150

Class 158/9

Class 170

 

I don't own any Class 20 / 40 / 44 / 45 / 46 / 70 /101 / 108s so cannot comment on these models. However  I do have a few Class 31s of the new tooling variant, but no failures yet. Although considering the way the wheel sets are produced, if they started to fail I'd not be surprised.

 

Considering Bachmann charge £2.50 (the last time I bought some, which wasn't recently), that is quite a lot of cash to keep replacing them, when its just the gear that fails.

 

Today to save money I buy the gears and refurbish the axles with new gears myself. But I ream the gear, so its a loose interference fit, and secure with a dab of glue. The plastic then isn't under stress like when fitted at the factory. So under expansion and contraction (of differing rates between metal and nylon), its less likely to fail.

 

I'd suggest the most likely failure mode is the tight interference fit, and the stress placed on the nylon, which fails at the thinnest part of gear, between the teeth.

 

Ideally metal gears are the solution and 2MM Association produce such wheel sets, but its an expensive proposition.

 

I have Dapol models like the Class 56 / 58 / 153 / 156 and had no issue thus far with wheelset gear failures.

 

It would be nice to see Bachmann take this issue more seriously, especially at £100+ per loco, and especially when N gauge is become an increasingly viable alternative to 1:76.

Edited November 4, 2016 by richierich

[Davexoc]

Having worked in various disciplines of plastics for too long now, I don't believe storage temperature and frequency of operation has much bearing on this problem. The coefficients of expansion on something that small are hardly measurable.

Now all plastics are not equal. I once worked on a container in South Africa which was more or less a copy of a French design. To achieve the same strength using the same testing methods the SA one required 33% more plastic, both using locally sourced 'equivalent grade' materials. So, if the source of the raw material changes, so could the ultimate strength, plasticity, etc. The other material problem could be due to the use of recycled material from rejects and start up waste.

Secondly, small changes in machine settings can change the product quality and are not always apparent immediately. Similarly two supposedly identical machines may need different settings to achieve the same ends. A few degrees rise in the mould temperature, or a few of tenths of a second less cooling time will make the finished product smaller. Another problem is that the finished product straight off the machine will always be bigger as the material shrinks as it cools, so any QA checking should be done at least an hour after production.

 

So, the current gears are more reliable than the Poole versions of old, but are we seeing failures due to the early part of the run being accepted before QA has passed them as OK? Or is there a dodgey impression within the tool, or one machine that runs hotter than others?

There are alot of variables that this problem could be attributed to, nailing it to one in particular is another matter. But for what its worth, my recent locos have not been problem free, and although don't see use very often, are kept in the house.

 

Dave

[Les1952]

Trying to make a list of such things isn't necessarily easy, as there are always ones that slip the memory then surface NEXT time you make a list (which then becomes a different list....)

 

Here goes- those I can remember. 

 

One Bachmann SD45 brand new out of the box (when they first did the SD45 in N) split a gear within the first ten minutes.  This one taught me not to muck about with weathering etc until the loco is totally run in as apparently I'd invalidated the warranty.  The dealer swapped the defective bogie with one from another new SD45 and sent THAT one back as a failure....

 

One Poole and one Chinese Class 20.  Both sold on much more recently.

 

One Class 45 new out of the box - returned to the dealer and exchanged for something different.

 

One "Old Farish" DMU chassis under a Sentinel railcar.

 

One A1 tender drive with offending wheelset replaced by BR Lines.

 

One Jubilee tender drive, same repair and returned in the same  box   post.

 

One ancient Arnold "Pigs Nose" railbus, robbed for its good axle and used as a piece of scenery on Furtwangen Ost

 

One even more ancient Arnold Kof2, repaired with the good axle from the "Pigs Nose" railbus but later scrapped after its motor expired- this loco had seen a lot of use over a lot of years and was totally worn out.

 

In OO I've had the gears disintegrate on an old Lima 08 diesel but this was secondhand and the mechanism was distinctly gunky.

 

I'm sure this list isn't exhaustive as I seem to remember others being fixed for me at different times but can't remember off the top of my head what they were......

 

The current loco fleet includes 2X24, 4XDMU, and one each of 37 and 55, together with the following tender drives- 3XA1, 3XA2, 2XJ39 and one each Black 5 and Jubilee.  This is equivalent to about half the total Continental fleet on Furtwangen (now sold) and a little 10% of the total UK outline stock I have for Hawthorn Dene and Rise Park.

 

Les

Edited November 7, 2016 by Les1952

[Elvinley]

Unusual to see steam outline locos with split gears.

[Chris Higgs]

Unusual to see steam outline locos with split gears.

 

Well yes, except that a tender drive axle is pretty much the same concept as a diesel. So likely to have the same weaknesses.

Edited November 6, 2016 by Chris Higgs

[Elvinley]

Absolutely true, but I just haven't heard of many issues with steam outline as opposed to diesel. A few less gears to go wrong I suppose.