34theletterbetweenB&D Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 ...It would need someone from within Hornby to tell exactly how the development of the present Duchess model occurred, during the shift from UK to Chinese production. Hornby having kicked off the newly tooled Chinese productions with quite a fanfare by the introduction of the Merchant Navy pacific, they went backward on the Duchess when a side by side comparison is made. Why an undersize centre driver, why the retention of the waggly bar bogie, why the more clumsy mouldings and reduced detail... The centre flange is reduced but the wheel diameter is not. The Britannia is gorgeous (one Brit and three Clans so far) but it's five years further on in development from the Duchess. It's also slightly smaller both in driving wheel diameter and coupled wheelbase, you have to compromise slightly if you want a long wheelbase with 6'9" drivers to go round 2nd radius curves. Yes, but the direct comparison I was making was with the MN, released a couple of years before the Duchess. The refinement of the MN's tooling is superior, the dome a separate piece, not moulded in with a seam; better attention to detail, correct pattern wheels. And somehow no need to fiddle diameters of the driven wheelsets which are on a longer coupled wheelbase on an MN, with a very similar overall loco wheelbase, and it goes around 2nd radius with no trouble. I still feel Hornby did half a job on the Duchess compared to their MN 'opener' in China. Five years later and they raised their standard still further with the Brit. But the Duchess has still to see any significant move forward, from what was lacking compared to the standard demonstrated on the MN. I find the relative neglect of their LMS loco model group disappointing. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tractionman Posted November 3, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 3, 2016 'I find the relative neglect of their LMS loco model group disappointing.' I agree. Wouldn't it be nice if tomorrow's announcement is a retooled Princess or the 2P... Cheers, Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 3, 2016 Share Posted November 3, 2016 Yes, but the direct comparison I was making was with the MN, released a couple of years before the Duchess. The refinement of the MN's tooling is superior, the dome a separate piece, not moulded in with a seam; better attention to detail, correct pattern wheels. And somehow no need to fiddle diameters of the driven wheelsets which are on a longer coupled wheelbase on an MN, with a very similar overall loco wheelbase, and it goes around 2nd radius with no trouble. I still feel Hornby did half a job on the Duchess compared to their MN 'opener' in China. Five years later and they raised their standard still further with the Brit. But the Duchess has still to see any significant move forward, from what was lacking compared to the standard demonstrated on the MN. I find the relative neglect of their LMS loco model group disappointing. The Britannia is vastly superior to the (rebuilt) Merchant Navy, though granted Merchant Navy is ahead, I don,t think a full retool of the Duchess is required, just put right the things that are wrong, I.e no seem on the Dome, a front bogie which looks the part. That said the original 80s one looks ok next to it, the tender is stretched but not the loco, so either the old one had a lot going for it or the new is really short of the mark. I agree it seems pricy compared with the more sophisticated Clan and Britannia. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ikks Posted November 4, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2016 I have put off getting a couple of Duchesses(my all time favourites ) because of that front end, to my mind it suffers the same problem as their earlier King the lack of detail on the front bogie and the amount of daylight between that and the frames, I was disappointed that they didn't fix this when they addressed the rear frames, the Princess needs sorting too. Slightly off topic(apologies to the OP), I didn't buy a Clan when I should have , do you think it will get another run? Rgds...Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 4, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2016 I have put off getting a couple of Duchesses(my all time favourites ) because of that front end, to my mind it suffers the same problem as their earlier King the lack of detail on the front bogie and the amount of daylight between that and the frames, I was disappointed that they didn't fix this when they addressed the rear frames, the Princess needs sorting too. Slightly off topic(apologies to the OP), I didn't buy a Clan when I should have , do you think it will get another run? Rgds...Mike Conspicuous by its absence.Depends upon what happened to the tooling when Sanda Kan folded Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black 5 Bear Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 When I asked Hornby customer services about a rerun of the Clan class, they stated that the tooling had been "Mislaid" at Sanda Kan. More's the pity as this loco was superb and definitely up there with the best. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 If my memory serves me correctly, the Clan came out at the time of another recession. Hornby judged that not much money would be spent on model trains and fettled up the Clan using Britannia parts. Perhaps the same could be done again, although Hornby seems now to like tooling new models complete instead of using already existing parts. If Hornby were to do it, I hope a woman is added to the team to help the colour blind blokes. Poor old Hornby! The market seemed to have been misjudged because not much else new appeared that year. In contrast, Bachmann continued as before and scooped up most of the spending which continued despite the recession. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 If my memory serves me correctly, the Clan came out at the time of another recession. Hornby judged that not much money would be spent on model trains and fettled up the Clan using Britannia parts. Perhaps the same could be done again, although Hornby seems now to like tooling new models complete instead of using already existing parts. If Hornby were to do it, I hope a woman is added to the team to help the colour blind blokes. Poor old Hornby! The market seemed to have been misjudged because not much else new appeared that year. In contrast, Bachmann continued as before and scooped up most of the spending which continued despite the recession. The Hornby Clan and Britannia are exactly the same everywhere below the wasteline. Only the body is different and just marginally lower. They have the Britannia and I bet they have the CADs too so the gap to get it back is not great. I brought my Clan for £70 5 years ago fully professionally weathered too. Beautiful model which will get DCC sound at some point. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 The trouble is that the CAD is relatively cheap compared to the tooling. Hornby might very well think it not worth while for a class of ten locomotives with only BR early and late livery variants, especially when one exists already. It is a nice model. I’d rather have a Duke done to a decent standard but there’s even less chance of that, I would have thought. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 4, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 4, 2016 'I find the relative neglect of their LMS loco model group disappointing It's because the LMS locos were crap lol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MatthewCarty Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 The trouble is that the CAD is relatively cheap compared to the tooling. Hornby might very well think it not worth while for a class of ten locomotives with only BR early and late livery variants, especially when one exists already. It is a nice model. I’d rather have a Duke done to a decent standard but there’s even less chance of that, I would have thought. Maybe when the new build Clan is complete, there might be enough interest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 The trouble is that the CAD is relatively cheap compared to the tooling. Hornby might very well think it not worth while for a class of ten locomotives with only BR early and late livery variants, especially when one exists already. It is a nice model. I’d rather have a Duke done to a decent standard but there’s even less chance of that, I would have thought. Hornby have produced multiple sets of the same tools before to avoid having the logistic nightmare between factories. I think the N15 and S15 are made in different factories yet use exact copies of the tender tooling. Another is the eight wheel LNER tenders. There really is not much difference between the Clan and Britannia, although I can understand that Hornby should best tool it up once they are sure of sales and their finances are clearer. Back to Duchess, I really do feel that this is an obvious case for the next model of the Dapol Black label range so why push a Hornby for a new tool when we should encourage them to fix the front end. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted November 4, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 4, 2016 Hornby have produced multiple sets of the same tools before to avoid having the logistic nightmare between factories. I think the N15 and S15 are made in different factories yet use exact copies of the tender tooling. Another is the eight wheel LNER tenders. There really is not much difference between the Clan and Britannia, although I can understand that Hornby should best tool it up once they are sure of sales and their finances are clearer. Back to Duchess, I really do feel that this is an obvious case for the next model of the Dapol Black label range so why push a Hornby for a new tool when we should encourage them to fix the front end. Shall we just wait to see exactly what we're getting from Dapol first ? I cannot imagine many would be willing to pay such prices in any case. Being realistic we're stuck with the Duchess for the long haul. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 Shall we just wait to see exactly what we're getting from Dapol first ? I cannot imagine many would be willing to pay such prices in any case. Being realistic we're stuck with the Duchess for the long haul. There is a big review of the Black Label A4 coming in the next Hornby Magazine. A video is already on line. I agree the price and timing will be long, but these big engines are obvious candidates due to the ease of fitting all that DCC gadgetry as they are popular classes so will sell. Our best bet is to encourage Hornby that it should make their a Duchess £10 to £20 cheaper than the Britannia due to its somewhat simpler nature and to do something about the front end Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wheatley Posted November 4, 2016 Share Posted November 4, 2016 deleted - talking nonsense Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ian_H Posted November 5, 2016 Author Share Posted November 5, 2016 Hi, Just a quick update, Toyland contacted me yesterday to say that the Earl Haig had arrived and I could pick it up at my convenience. I collected it today, checked it out in store as instructed by Ian, what a superb model and no seam! Also the sale is still on, will probably finish tomorrow, so the price paid was £104.00, excellent price. Now, I've got a problem, I had originally intended to purchase two Coronation Class locos and we know what happen there, so do I now purchase another Britannia and if so which one? My time period is early 1960s, so late crest, if I purchase another Earl Haig then it would entail renaming and renumbering if I purchase Thomas Hardy it entails a new crest. I'm leaning towards another Earl Haig because although the work if doubled I can choose any of the other 53 names or no name at all as with 70047 but my dilemma is that I've never done anything like that is it relatively easy to do, I don't what to get into having to repaint the model but the price seems too good to miss out on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 5, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 5, 2016 Hi, Just a quick update, Toyland contacted me yesterday to say that the Earl Haig had arrived and I could pick it up at my convenience. I collected it today, checked it out in store as instructed by Ian, what a superb model and no seam! Also the sale is still on, will probably finish tomorrow, so the price paid was £104.00, excellent price. Now, I've got a problem, I had originally intended to purchase two Coronation Class locos and we know what happen there, so do I now purchase another Britannia and if so which one? My time period is early 1960s, so late crest, if I purchase another Earl Haig then it would entail renaming and renumbering if I purchase Thomas Hardy it entails a new crest. I'm leaning towards another Earl Haig because although the work if doubled I can choose any of the other 53 names or no name at all as with 70047 but my dilemma is that I've never done anything like that is it relatively easy to do, I don't what to get into having to repaint the model but the price seems too good to miss out on. Removing the printed nameplates and numbers is very easy to do. If you plan to fit etched nameplates then all the easier. I used a toothpick dipped in nail polish remover, only rubbing on the printing. A quick wipe after with a damp cloth and it was like nothing had ever been there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 6, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 6, 2016 Removing the printed nameplates and numbers is very easy to do. If you plan to fit etched nameplates then all the easier. I used a toothpick dipped in nail polish remover, only rubbing on the printing. A quick wipe after with a damp cloth and it was like nothing had ever been there. Does anyone happen to know if this also works with the coach rounders on Hornby's Mk1s please, before I risk making a mess. Ta. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Removing the printed nameplates and numbers is very easy to do. If you plan to fit etched nameplates then all the easier. I used a toothpick dipped in nail polish remover, only rubbing on the printing. A quick wipe after with a damp cloth and it was like nothing had ever been there. Sounds good as I'm hoping to rename Lord Kitchener as Iron Duke (a much smaller name). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted November 7, 2016 Share Posted November 7, 2016 Hi, Just a quick update, Toyland contacted me yesterday to say that the Earl Haig had arrived and I could pick it up at my convenience. I collected it today, checked it out in store as instructed by Ian, what a superb model and no seam! Also the sale is still on, will probably finish tomorrow, so the price paid was £104.00, excellent price. Now, I've got a problem, I had originally intended to purchase two Coronation Class locos and we know what happen there, so do I now purchase another Britannia and if so which one? My time period is early 1960s, so late crest, if I purchase another Earl Haig then it would entail renaming and renumbering if I purchase Thomas Hardy it entails a new crest. I'm leaning towards another Earl Haig because although the work if doubled I can choose any of the other 53 names or no name at all as with 70047 but my dilemma is that I've never done anything like that is it relatively easy to do, I don't what to get into having to repaint the model but the price seems too good to miss out on. Shame we don't live near each other, I could swap the loco half of Lord Kitchener with an Earl Haig. You would then have a second late crest Britannia and I have a model easier to rename to Iron Duke (same name plate length). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Hilux5972 Posted November 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 8, 2016 Does anyone happen to know if this also works with the coach rounders on Hornby's Mk1s please, before I risk making a mess. Ta. Worked on my coaches too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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