West Riding Lines - Dewsbury Midland 00

[Joseph_Pestell]

After more than 40 years, my layout thoughts still come back to the same idea. It's bordering on an obsession!

 

Of course, I'm not the only one. Arthur Whitehead's RM article back in 1973 has inspired numerous Dewsbury Midland layouts in N, 00, and 0. I even built one myself in my parents' garage in the mid 1970s. Anyway, after several false starts on other projects in recent years, I am determined to get there this time, probably in N/2mm as I don't really have enough space to store a 4mm scale version.

 

So what appeals so much about Dewsbury? I was brought up by my father to be a Midland Rly/LMS/BR(LMR) fan and my most powerful railway memories are of trips on the Midland Main Line including regular trips from St Pancras to Bedford to see family.

1. Dewsbury gives an opportunity to model the Midland style but not be confined to a particular prototype station.

2. It can be good visually with bridges across the river, canal, roads and LNW as well as grimy warehouses etc.

3. Good operationally with a mix of main line running, branch line trains and plenty of shunting (freight, parcels and through coaches).

4. There is a lot of information about on what the Midland intended to do.

 

On a practical level, I can see a way of building it in two parts so that the project is not too overwhelming (even in N, we're looking at 24' length) although that means a bit of a compromise on my usual design mantras. There is even a way of doing it in 7mm scale although that involves selecting just a part of the overall scene and limiting the operating potential a bit. Tempting though.

 

I have spent a bit of time redesigning my trackplan as my old laptop seems to have mislaid my previous efforts. I will post that later when I have modified it to make it easier to post here.

 

Meantime, like AndyP on his latest layout thread (Willsbridge Bath Road), I am thinking about a name. I don't want it to be another Dewsbury Midland. The options that I have come up with so  far:

 

Dewsbury West

Dewsbury West Town / Dewsbury (West Town)

Dewsbury St John / Dewsbury St John's

Dewsbury Huddersfield Road

Dewsbury Quarry Hill

 

Any thoughts?

 

 

Edited June 2, 2020 by Joseph_Pestell

[4630]

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Edited November 12, 2016 by 4630

[Andrew P]

After more than 40 years, my layout thoughts still come back to the same idea. It's bordering on an obsession!

 

Of course, I'm not the only one. Arthur Whitehead's RM article back in 1973 has inspired numerous Dewsbury Midland layouts in N, 00, and 0. I even built one myself in my parents' garage in the mid 1970s. Anyway, after several false starts on other projects in recent years, I am determined to get there this time, probably in N/2mm as I don't really have enough space to store a 4mm scale version.

 

So what appeals so much about Dewsbury? I was brought up by my father to be a Midland Rly/LMS/BR(LMR) fan and my most powerful railway memories are of trips on the Midland Main Line including regular trips from St Pancras to Bedford to see family.

1. Dewsbury gives an opportunity to model the Midland style but not be confined to a particular prototype station.

2. It can be good visually with bridges across the river, canal, roads and LNW as well as grimy warehouses etc.

3. Good operationally with a mix of main line running, branch line trains and plenty of shunting (freight, parcels and through coaches).

4. There is a lot of information about on what the Midland intended to do.

 

On a practical level, I can see a way of building it in two parts so that the project is not too overwhelming (even in N, we're looking at 24' length) although that means a bit of a compromise on my usual design mantras. There is even a way of doing it in 7mm scale although that involves selecting just a part of the overall scene and limiting the operating potential a bit. Tempting though.

 

I have spent a bit of time redesigning my trackplan as my old laptop seems to have mislaid my previous efforts. I will post that later when I have modified it to make it easier to post here.

 

Meantime, like AndyP on his latest layout thread (Willsbridge Bath Road), I am thinking about a name. I don't want it to be another Dewsbury Midland. The options that I have come up with so  far:

 

Dewsbury West

Dewsbury West Town / Dewsbury (West Town)

Dewsbury St John / Dewsbury St John's

Dewsbury Huddersfield Road

Dewsbury Quarry Hill

 

Any thoughts?

Morning Joseph, I do like the idea, and I also looked at that area many years ago after spending almost the whole of one show watching the Manchester Clubs Dewsbury Midland Layout with those wonderful curved Viaducts and Mills.

 

I wish you well with this but I personally would still look at maybe smaller and in OO, a couple of reasons really, there are some nice 8F's, 9F's and Black 5's and the detail is so much better on OO, but at the end of the day, you can get twice as much scenery into an N Gauge Layout.,

 

As for the name, I do like Dewsbury West, as it sounds right to me.

 

All the best with the Build and I'm looking forward to seeing a Track Plan.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Andrew P

[Joseph_Pestell]

Morning Joseph, I do like the idea, and I also looked at that area many years ago after spending almost the whole of one show watching the Manchester Clubs Dewsbury Midland Layout with those wonderful curved Viaducts and Mills.

 

I wish you well with this but I personally would still look at maybe smaller and in OO, a couple of reasons really, there are some nice 8F's, 9F's and Black 5's and the detail is so much better on OO, but at the end of the day, you can get twice as much scenery into an N Gauge Layout.,

 

As for the name, I do like Dewsbury West, as it sounds right to me.

 

All the best with the Build and I'm looking forward to seeing a Track Plan.

 

I am tempted to revert to 4mm (00 or EM) for the availability of suitable locos, not least the forthcoming Bachmann Stanier Mogul. By building half of the overall layout - hiding the "hole in the sky" with a suitably relocated mill - I could get the length down to something reasonable although the overall bulk, including a fiddle yard, would still be a lot compared with the 2mm version where the return curves and fiddle yard can all be contained on the one baseboard.

 

There's also the issue of track. We have the prospect of much better looking 00 track (bullhead) from both Peco and DCC Concepts. And I am still working quietly on my own project for 00 track albeit that the project has been modified in view of the Peco announcement.

 

In N/2mm, we have Easitrak from the 2mm Association and fiNetrax from Wayne Kinney, both very good in their ways. But if I go down one of those routes, I would need someone to build the pointwork for me as it is just too small for my capabilities. In N, I would probably chicken out and go for Peco "55" which can look quite good so long as the trackbed is raised to eyelevel (as on the fabulous Castle Hill).

Edited November 3, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[jamie92208]

Hi Joseph, An interesting prototype. I did some deep research into the West Riding Lines and wrote an article for Midland Record about the lines that never got built. Issue 21 IIRC but I will check in due course. In my research I spent a lot of time at the county record office in Wakefield examining the desposited plans. I still have photocopies of the area where the actual station would have been, built on a viaduct with the approach road running down the side of Saville Town Goods Yard which would have been at ground level in front of the station. If you are interested in any of the material please send me a PM.

 

I'll try and post a couple of pictures that I use in the talk about the project that might be of interest, but they are on the other computer.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Joseph, An interesting prototype. I did some deep research into the West Riding Lines and wrote an article for Midland Record about the lines that never got built. Issue 21 IIRC but I will check in due course. In my research I spent a lot of time at the county record office in Wakefield examining the desposited plans. I still have photocopies of the area where the actual station would have been, built on a viaduct with the approach road running down the side of Saville Town Goods Yard which would have been at ground level in front of the station. If you are interested in any of the material please send me a PM.

 

I'll try and post a couple of pictures that I use in the talk about the project that might be of interest, but they are on the other computer.

 

Jamie

 

Hi Jamie,

 

Your contributions on RMWeb are one of the reasons I have returned to this. Your surveyors' plan showed that I had correctly located where my station should be. I do wonder if the through route had been built whether they would have run with the option of the lower level branch to a goods yard. It seems operationally complicated.

 

I'd love to see any of the material that you have, especially any photos from that era. In common with other Yorkshire towns, there has been massive amounts of demolition over the last few decades, often for road schemes.

 

So it's quite difficult to know what buildings to include. There won't be many because I am planning a long narrow layout which will mostly be railway, embankments, retaining walls and bridges. But I have planned a low-relief Midland Hotel next to the station entrance. I am thinking of building this (bridge, station building, hotel frontage) as a separate module before starting on the main layout. Anyone know which brewery would have supplied the beer?

 

Joseph

[jamie92208]

Hi Jamie,

 

Your contributions on RMWeb are one of the reasons I have returned to this. Your surveyors' plan showed that I had correctly located where my station should be. I do wonder if the through route had been built whether they would have run with the option of the lower level branch to a goods yard. It seems operationally complicated.

 

I'd love to see any of the material that you have, especially any photos from that era. In common with other Yorkshire towns, there has been massive amounts of demolition over the last few decades, often for road schemes.

 

So it's quite difficult to know what buildings to include. There won't be many because I am planning a long narrow layout which will mostly be railway, embankments, retaining walls and bridges. But I have planned a low-relief Midland Hotel next to the station entrance. I am thinking of building this (bridge, station building, hotel frontage) as a separate module before starting on the main layout. Anyone know which brewery would have supplied the beer?

 

Joseph

 

Hi Joseph

It sounds interesting.   I can't remember what I've posted elsewhere so here are the cross section and plan plus a photo that I took from the end of the embankment that would have carried the main line north.  This was later used for wagon storage,  It shows the view across the valley.  The line would have gone into a tunnel below the school that's in the distance.

 

I suspect that the goods yard would have remained at low level, if only to make it easier to get goods into and from the town.  The Midland actually built a new bridge over the river that's still  use today on Mill Street (West I think).   The goods traffic was the main economic justification for the West Riding lines so that was looked after first.   With the tunnelled exit it could make a good little addition to the layout.

 

I look forward to seeing progress in due course.

 

The article was in Midland record 19.  If you can't locate a copy let me know.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Scan0026.pdf

 

This is a rough sketch of the plan. Ignore the baseboard grid/breaks as they are from an extended version of the 7mm plan and it will be rather different for 4mm or 2mm.

 

To the top, if I have got it right, is the double-track exit northwards towards Bradford. To the bottom, two double tracks which supposedly diverge just off-scene beyond a footbridge, the left-hand tracks being the Huddersfield Branch.

 

Apart from running through trains, including the Scottish expresses, there are four focus points for operation:

- a parcels bay at the north end of the station;

- exchange sidings where wagons for the South and Dewsbury can be dropped off from Huddersfield - Bradford goods;

- crossovers at the south end of the station to shunt through coaches and parcels/newspaper traffic for Huddersfield;

- a carriage siding to shunt Huddersfield branch trains to.

 

Edit: I had hoped that would be embedded into the post rather than as an attachment. I'll see if I can correct that. I think it needs to be saved as a .jpeg rather than .pdf.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Joseph

It sounds interesting.   I can't remember what I've posted elsewhere so here are the cross section and plan plus a photo that I took from the end of the embankment that would have carried the main line north.  This was later used for wagon storage,  It shows the view across the valley.  The line would have gone into a tunnel below the school that's in the distance.

 

I suspect that the goods yard would have remained at low level, if only to make it easier to get goods into and from the town.  The Midland actually built a new bridge over the river that's still  use today on Mill Street (West I think).   The goods traffic was the main economic justification for the West Riding lines so that was looked after first.   With the tunnelled exit it could make a good little addition to the layout.

 

I look forward to seeing progress in due course.

 

The article was in Midland record 19.  If you can't locate a copy let me know.

09-Dewsbury plan.jpg

10-dewsbury x sec.jpg

11-dewsbury3.jpg

 

Jamie

 

I don't think that I had seen the cross-section before. That shows some very interesting levels and the fact that the railway planned a very long viaduct rather than an embankment. It confirms my impression from OS maps that much of the area is vulnerable to flooding. I would probably adopt rule 1 and go for a mix of embankment and bridges.

 

It also shows me that I had seriously mis-calculated the height of the railway relative to some of the roads and the LNW. That may need some re-evaluation of the plans but could make the layout rather more spectacular than I had realised.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

 

The article was in Midland record 19.  If you can't locate a copy let me know.

09-Dewsbury plan.jpg

10-dewsbury x sec.jpg

11-dewsbury3.jpg

 

Jamie

 

Thanks, Jamie. Midland Record 19 available from Titfield Thunderbolt. Since I can't get to Warley and unlikely to visit Bath anytime soon, I have ordered by post. Will be good bedtime reading for the weekend as SWMBO plans to be away visiting family.

[jamie92208]

Scan0026.pdf

 

This is a rough sketch of the plan. Ignore the baseboard grid/breaks as they are from an extended version of the 7mm plan and it will be rather different for 4mm or 2mm.

 

To the top, if I have got it right, is the double-track exit northwards towards Bradford. To the bottom, two double tracks which supposedly diverge just off-scene beyond a footbridge, the left-hand tracks being the Huddersfield Branch.

 

Apart from running through trains, including the Scottish expresses, there are four focus points for operation:

- a parcels bay at the north end of the station;

- exchange sidings where wagons for the South and Dewsbury can be dropped off from Huddersfield - Bradford goods;

- crossovers at the south end of the station to shunt through coaches and parcels/newspaper traffic for Huddersfield;

- a carriage siding to shunt Huddersfield branch trains to.

 

Edit: I had hoped that would be embedded into the post rather than as an attachment. I'll see if I can correct that.

So the mythical Huddersfield branch will reappear. The branch actually left some way south at a triangular junction and as far as I can see it would have just been a double track exit going south. However the viaduct was certainly side enough for a bay platform. With the entrance being from below I suspect that it would have been an island platform with the bay included. Much more economical with only one lot of platform offices to build. Hellifield with it's nice curved covered way coming up into the centre of the platform would be an example.

 

As regards getting the plan to display, RMWeb won't display pdf's. You need to print it as a jpg and then upload that.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just reread this and see that the Midland's intention was to build the station south of the river - which is where I put it in my previous 1970's 00 effort. There is sense to this as it removes the need for the Huddersfield Branch to cross the river on a second, expensive, viaduct. Downside is that it puts the station a long way from the town centre.

 

My current plan has the station north of the river but it may be worth revisiting that, certainly for a 2mm version where baseboard width is not so much of an issue. It makes it much easier to put the proper curve on the layout.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just reread this and see that the Midland's intention was to build the station south of the river - which is where I put it in my previous 1970's 00 effort. There is sense to this as it removes the need for the Huddersfield Branch to cross the river on a second, expensive, viaduct. Downside is that it puts the station a long way from the town centre.

 

My current plan has the station north of the river but it may be worth revisiting that, certainly for a 2mm version where baseboard width is not so much of an issue. It makes it much easier to put the proper curve on the layout.

 

The Huddersfield Branch is the one bit that is not mythical even if only part of it was built and had to be accessed via the L&Y (and later the LNW).

 

I do like the Hellifield / Trent style of island platform station and it would make sense in this location. My previous effort was in this style and one area of dissatisfaction then was the difficulty of making this look right with Peco pointwork. That can be addressed.

 

I also think that arrangement really needs the Branch to diverge immediately after the platform ends which needs a bit more baseboard width, only a problem for a 7mm version.

Edited November 3, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[jamie92208]

Sorry I should have made it a little bit clearer. There was going to be a Huddersfield branch but it branched off just south of Thornhill at a triangular junction then continued through Huddersfield and up to Halifax with a viaduct across Leeds Road in Huddersfield. The northward embankment, which I took the photo from was only 2 tracks wide. However modellers licence would apply. Thornhill to Halifax line was abandoned and replaced by the later Mirfield to Huddersfield line using running powers after the Middlestown junction link down to the L & Y was built. If you kept to the 2 track approach you wouldn't need to extra baseboard width. I'll go and try and dig out my original photocopies which may show the Midland crossing of Huddersfield Road.

 

I hope that this doesn't come across as pedantic. The mythical reference was to IIRC Arthur Whitehead and the Manchester club having the junction at the station.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Sorry I should have made it a little bit clearer. There was going to be a Huddersfield branch but it branched off just south of Thornhill at a triangular junction then continued through Huddersfield and up to Halifax with a viaduct across Leeds Road in Huddersfield. The northward embankment, which I took the photo from was only 2 tracks wide. However modellers licence would apply. Thornhill to Halifax line was abandoned and replaced by the later Mirfield to Huddersfield line using running powers after the Middlestown junction link down to the L & Y was built. If you kept to the 2 track approach you wouldn't need to extra baseboard width. I'll go and try and dig out my original photocopies which may show the Midland crossing of Huddersfield Road.

 

I hope that this doesn't come across as pedantic. The mythical reference was to IIRC Arthur Whitehead and the Manchester club having the junction at the station.

 

Jamie

 

You are right that the whole layout could be made a lot simpler if one assumes that the junction is well off-stage to the south and there is only a double track. There would still be Huddersfield Branch trains needing a bay at the station with shunting, through coaches, etc.

 

Ignoring the current trackplan, much as I like it as a layout to operate, if I move the station back to the south bank, I can opt not to model that for the time being and have a model which just features the viaducts and bridges. That would enable me to use fiNetrax code 40 on the visible part without worrying for the moment about pointwork.

 

As always, so many options to consider which is, of course, what usually prevents me from making a start! Must do better this time.

[jamie92208]

Hi Joseph

 

I've now returned from venturing to the back of the bottom drawer of my filing cabinet and have struck gold.   I've found the original photocopies from the record office and di have the one that shows Huddersfield Road.  I've scanned the plan and profile and they are attached.  The lie di do over Huddersfield Road with the road being lowered by 7'6" to fit under a 16' high arch.  I've also looked through the notes I made at the time (All in pencil of course) and the junction was just south of where the line crossed the L & Y.  The attached plan that Arthur Whitehead drew for me explains it.

 

Have fun.   A diorama type layout of the viaduct with all the north end bridges, that then goes into the tunnel would look good.  It could conceivably be designed to take the full station viaduct.   Having thought about it there would probably have been loops outside the main platform roads, just like Hellifield. The line was set ot for speed and there were proposed water troughs not far south of Dewsbury.

 

 

Jamie

 

PS no one was injured in the retrieving of these plans. (Just)

[Joseph_Pestell]

Hi Joseph

 

I've now returned from venturing to the back of the bottom drawer of my filing cabinet and have struck gold.   I've found the original photocopies from the record office and di have the one that shows Huddersfield Road.  I've scanned the plan and profile and they are attached.  The lie di do over Huddersfield Road with the road being lowered by 7'6" to fit under a 16' high arch.  I've also looked through the notes I made at the time (All in pencil of course) and the junction was just south of where the line crossed the L & Y.  The attached plan that Arthur Whitehead drew for me explains it.

 

Have fun.   A diorama type layout of the viaduct with all the north end bridges, that then goes into the tunnel would look good.  It could conceivably be designed to take the full station viaduct.   Having thought about it there would probably have been loops outside the main platform roads, just like Hellifield. The line was set ot for speed and there were proposed water troughs not far south of Dewsbury.

 

Dewsbury 4a.jpg

Dewsbury 5.jpg

06-Arthurs plan.jpg

 

Jamie

 

PS no one was injured in the retrieving of these plans. (Just)

 

Dangerous things filing cabinets. My parents had one which would regularly tip over and squash feet.

 

Seriously, though, fantastic info there with lots of food for thought. Many thanks.

[Guest bri.s]

Like the sound of this project will be following

I was traveling under crigglestone viaduct not 20 mins ago and and it reminded me of this thread (saw it this morning but didn't have time to post )

 

Brian

[jamie92208]

Dangerous things filing cabinets. My parents had one which would regularly tip over and squash feet.

 

Seriously, though, fantastic info there with lots of food for thought. Many thanks.

No problem, keep in touch. I only live a few miles away if you need any photos.

 

Going back to your original post. If you do model the station then it could be Dewsbury Mill Street or Dewsbury Saville Town.

 

Jamie

Edited November 3, 2016 by jamie92208

[Joseph_Pestell]

No problem, keep in touch. I only live a few miles away if you need any photos.

 

Going back to your original post. If you do model the station then it could be Dewsbury Mill Street or Dewsbury Saville Town.

 

Jamie

I will certainly want to include the station at some point for operating interest. Dewsbury Mill Street sounds good. Or I might create a Midland Road as the approach to the station.

 

Meantime, I shall start the drawing process again, perhaps using one of the 3D layout planning packages if I can master it. Just as well that I enjoy "armchair modelling".

 

Phase one a long gentle curve from the tunnel across the bridges and viaduct to a single span girder across the river and some more viaduct going behind the mill (which is going to be a bit of a monster if high enough to hid exit of track from view). One advantage to this is that I don't have to worry about DCC just yet if I don't want to.

 

Then Phase 2 the station. Probably still basically the same design with four tracks exiting the scene southwards so that Huddersfield Branch trains don't cause delay to the Main Line but the junction itself not modelled. A bit less interesting operationally but quite a saving in money and space.

[jamie92208]

That sounds good. If you need some plans for Midland Girder Bridges of that era I've got the actual Midland drawings of Greyhound Bridge at Lancaster. All the Midland's northern bridges were supplied by Butlers of Stanningley and the same design was certainly used on the Mirfield to Hudderfield Branch.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

That sounds good. If you need some plans for Midland Girder Bridges of that era I've got the actual Midland drawings of Greyhound Bridge at Lancaster. All the Midland's northern bridges were supplied by Butlers of Stanningley and the same design was certainly used on the Mirfield to Hudderfield Branch.

 

Jamie

 

That sounds good. The bridges and viaduct are going to be such a feature of this that it is important to get them right.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Titfield Thunderbolt (Wild Swan) have been super efficient so a copy of Midland Record 19 dropped into the letterbox at midday. That article gives plenty of useful detail but also raises some more questions to resolve. Bob Essery reckons that the station would have been in West Town where I have placed it in the plan above but having seen the elevation drawings posted by Jamie 92208 that looks rather impractical. I certainly can't justify four tracks south from there over a 600yd viaduct as much as I think it would make a nice layout.

 

Using the plans supplied by Jamie, I have done some more drawing. Even in 2mm scale, the stretch of line from tunnel to south bank of the river, works out to quite a length - more than I had anticipated. That is partly because there is a 4' long cutting. That seems a bit of a waste and I think the layout would look better for some selective compression.

 

So present thoughts are that Phase 1 should be 20' long (5 x 4' boards) with 18' visible and 2' for the hidden 180 degree curve to the fiddleyard. The visible part will probably be 12" deep, leaving plenty of space behind for hidden trackage. Another temporary board would be added to the right of that to give the second fiddleyard access. Just plain track (or perhaps one siding) with the station placed as Jamie suggests south of the river as Phase 2, probably some years away! Although the baseboards for this first bit will be quite complicated, it should otherwise be fairly simple and possible to get the bridges and viaducts in place quite quickly and trains running.

 

Next tasks are to draw up an elevation drawing and then work out how to do the arches on a curved viaduct, a good test of my mathematical ability (or lack of it). I know that there have been some articles about this in the press and on RMWeb.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Like the sound of this project will be following

I was traveling under crigglestone viaduct not 20 mins ago and and it reminded me of this thread (saw it this morning but didn't have time to post )

 

Brian

Brian,

 

You have given me a useful hint there. Lots of photos of Crigglestone Viaduct available on t'interweb and it is reasonable to suppose that the Dewsbury viaduct would be very similar.

Particularly helpful to see how they dealt with the oblique angle of the road passing underneath.

 

Bit disappointed to find that it is in engineering brick. Stone would look better but brick will give contrast with the many stone buildings.

 

Joseph

[Guest bri.s]

Have you see this page

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk/Royston%20Savile%20town.htm

 

Brian