West Riding Lines - Dewsbury Midland 00

[Joseph_Pestell]

Have you see this page

http://www.lostrailwayswestyorkshire.co.uk/Royston%20Savile%20town.htm

 

Brian

Brian,

No, I had not seen that. Some very useful photos. Jamie had said that the 3-arch canal viaduct would be useful but I could not get close enough with Google Streetview to get a good look.

Joseph

[Guest bri.s]

Brian,

No, I had not seen that. Some very useful photos. Jamie had said that the 3-arch canal viaduct would be useful but I could not get close enough with Google Streetview to get a good look.

Joseph

Is the 3 arch one any of these

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flufzilla22/sets/72157624822308511/

 

Brian

[Guest bri.s]

Another picture here

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/flufzilla22/4986147476/in/search_QM_q_IS_Crigglestone

 

Brian

[MrSimon]

Hi Joseph,

 

12" should give you plenty of depth to work with in N/2mm, looking forward to seeing this layout develop!

 

Cheers

Simon

[jamie92208]

Is the 3 arch one any of these

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flufzilla22/sets/72157624822308511/

 

Brian

 

Sadly not Brian.   I'll try and dig out a photo over the next couple of days.   I might even go and take another if I can't find it.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is the 3 arch one any of these

http://www.flickriver.com/photos/flufzilla22/sets/72157624822308511/

 

Brian

 

As Jamie says, no it isn't. But there are several of the three-arch viaduct over the canal on that link you put in your previous post.

 

What this new link shows is that there was quite a range of styles of construction on this line: all stone; stone with brick arches; all brick; stone plus steel girder. Perhaps it was left to contractors to make their own choice???

 

The all stone ones are interesting as being quite like the Ratio viaduct kit so there could be scope to use parts from that as a shortcut. Given the number of arches though and the curve, probably better to make up my own master and then get someone to resin-cast them for me (or even plaster).

Edited November 5, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Totem - Dewsbury & Thornhill.docx

 

For some reason my computer is not allowing me to save files as .jpg, so have had to put this here as a .doc. I know it's not quite right yet but just a bit of fun over the last few minutes. I have done one for Huddersfield Road Dewsbury as well but that still needs some work to get the Dewsbury in the lower frame of the totem. The base artwork is available on Microsoft Word as a Clip Art. Search under "railway signs" as totems give you native American statues. I have used Tacoma on this but the letter I is all wrong. Calibri is better and certainly good enough once reduced.

 

There is an argument for doing this with tangerine BR(NE) liveried totems, as per the Manchester MRC version. But I think that if the Midland had built the West Riding Lines, subsequent railway history would have been a bit different  so I have gone for BR(LMR) maroon.

 

Before doing this, I have been doing some quite detailed drawings for baseboards (diorama style) and the various bridges and viaduct as not overwhelmed with visitors today. Modelling the curve to scale makes the viaduct geometry rather simpler, I'm glad to say, although I am not quite there yet, Think that I will cut out some rough card templates from old packaging and modify. Very "old school" I know but I have never mastered 3D drawing software.

 

Edit to add: Running-in board is rather easier. Running-in Board Dewsbury Thornhill.docx

Edited November 5, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Fat Controller]

As Jamie says, no it isn't. But there are several of the three-arch viaduct over the canal on that link you put in your previous post.

 

What this new link shows is that there was quite a range of styles of construction on this line: all stone; stone with brick arches; all brick; stone plus steel girder. Perhaps it was left to contractors to make their own choice???

 

The all stone ones are interesting as being quite like the Ratio viaduct kit so there could be scope to use parts from that as a shortcut. Given the number of arches though and the curve, probably better to make up my own master and then get someone to resin-cast them for me (or even plaster).

The material used to build the bridges and viaducts probably comes down to what was available locally in most cases; civil engineers, even today, go to great lengths to avoid hauling material more than is necessary. it costs a lot of money and effort.

If there were cuttings through rock that was suitable for stonework, then material would either be dressed for use in all-stone structures, or used as 'rubble' walling, with brick arches. Anything not suitable for use like this would become embankment material. Likewise, if the line-of-route passed through suitable clay, then a brickworks might be established to make bricks, drainage pipes etc.

[Joseph_Pestell]

The material used to build the bridges and viaducts probably comes down to what was available locally in most cases; civil engineers, even today, go to great lengths to avoid hauling material more than is necessary. it costs a lot of money and effort.

If there were cuttings through rock that was suitable for stonework, then material would either be dressed for use in all-stone structures, or used as 'rubble' walling, with brick arches. Anything not suitable for use like this would become embankment material. Likewise, if the line-of-route passed through suitable clay, then a brickworks might be established to make bricks, drainage pipes etc.

 

That is indeed the case. I am sitting in a building constructed with stone quarried about 1km south-east and cut 1km south of here. And it's only three years old.

 

What seems strange in the case of this line is variations over quite a short distance.

[Enterprisingwestern]

So, basically, you're building a variation on a theme of Wibdenshaw in 2mm?

 

Mike.

[Joseph_Pestell]

So, basically, you're building a variation on a theme of Wibdenshaw in 2mm?

 

Mike.

I don't recall the "back story" of Wibdenshaw. A lovely layout but I don't think that it is all that much like what I am trying to achieve with this which will be a bit less urban. I'm not sure to what extent I will be able to recreate the real Dewsbury as so many buildings have been demolished but I am aiming to make it as realistic a model as it can be of what the town would have looked like if the West Riding Main Line had been built.

 

Perhaps the original plan was a bit similar but Jamie has persuaded me that the main station should be on the south bank (in Thornhill) and therefore the main feature of the layout will be a long curving stretch of twin track mainline over a stone viaduct.

 

Jamie's other contributions have helped my understanding of what the Midland's West Riding network could have been like and today has been wasted thinking about other potential modelling projects - much more compact - which could be done in larger scales. So I now have a cunning plan, as Baldrick would say, for how to use a Dapol Jinty.

[moore43grm]

hi there

 

the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Society covered the Dewsbury Branch in their branchlines series - No. 8 

 

Dewsbury Wellington Road was LNWR

Dewsbury Market Place was LYR

Dewsbury Central was GN

 

so plenty of name choices for a pre-grouping theme

 

Russ M

[jamie92208]

Just had a terrible thought.  Take it back to anywhere pre 1933 and you would be able to have trams on the Huddersfield Road.

 

I'll run for cover now.

 

Jamie

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just had a terrible thought.  Take it back to anywhere pre 1933 and you would be able to have trams on the Huddersfield Road.

 

I'll run for cover now.

 

Jamie

That's not a terrible thought at all. I like trams and at least they were standard gauge in Dewsbury. No practicable way to make them operational except perhaps with a short-turn terminating point in front of the station and a hole through the backscene partly concealed by the railway bridge. I was thinking more of just modelling the defunct tracks in the road. I think that trams ran up Savile Road as well and they certainly would have done if the main Midland station was up there.

 

Anyway, my intention is to be another of those boring steam/diesel transition era people. It's where I started 50+ years ago and N gauge diesels are easier to deal with than kettles. But I admit to being tempted by pre-grouping Midland after seeing some of the lovely coaches on Bath Queen Square. Might not be too difficult to backdate Phase 1 of the layout as not too many signals, nameboards etc to changeover.

 

Edit: Talking of road-based passenger transport, I have been doing some internet research into suitable buses and coaches. As it happens there is a Dewsbury Bus Museum so plenty of info there. The Yorkshire (Woollen District) liveries are very attractive and some suitable buses available in the OOC range. I am still looking for details of coach operators in the early 1960s as all the current local firms seem to be quite recently founded. I am thinking of repainting an OOC Bedford OB or 2.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

hi there

 

the Lancashire & Yorkshire Railway Society covered the Dewsbury Branch in their branchlines series - No. 8 

 

Dewsbury Wellington Road was LNWR

Dewsbury Market Place was LYR

Dewsbury Central was GN

 

so plenty of name choices for a pre-grouping theme

 

Russ M

 

And all of them very suitable to model. I seem to recall seeing a 7mm layout based on Market Place. I don't think that I have ever seen or heard of a model of either of the others but the GN station was very compact and ideal for modelling. Good range of suitable locos and stock available for it these days too.

[meil]

Titfield Thunderbolt (Wild Swan) have been super efficient so a copy of Midland Record 19 dropped into the letterbox at midday. That article gives plenty of useful detail but also raises some more questions to resolve. Bob Essery reckons that the station would have been in West Town where I have placed it in the plan above but having seen the elevation drawings posted by Jamie 92208 that looks rather impractical. I certainly can't justify four tracks south from there over a 600yd viaduct as much as I think it would make a nice layout.

 

Bob Essery's depiction of Dewsbury is complete fantasy. He pays no account of actual geography and topography of Dewsbury.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Bob Essery's depiction of Dewsbury is complete fantasy. He pays no account of actual geography and topography of Dewsbury.

 

I was not really referring to his various layouts but to his article in Midland Record 19 which is all based on hard fact such as the various Parliamentary Acts. One of those had the potential Dewsbury station mentioned as being in Dewsbury, not Thornhill, and at a distance from the Town Hall which does not correspond with a station on the south bank of the river.

 

The MMRS 00 layout does not claim to be in the right place in Dewsbury and it has always seemed to me that the junction is in the wrong place and facing the wrong way.

 

But Rule 1 always applies in these cases as we can not know what would really have happened. That's what makes it a bit more interesting than modelling a real railway station while still having some constraints that avoid potential inaccuracies from prototype practice.

Edited November 7, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Following on from some very helpful replies on the question of one box or two for the main station (Dewsbury Thornhill / Dewsbury & Thornhill), I have concluded that only one box is needed there so I can just about justify a second small box at the small station on Phase 1 of the layout (Huddersfield Road Dewsbury / Dewsbury West Town). That will give some more signals on the Phase 1 section of the layout and I feel that is important as working signals will add visual interest to what is otherwise just a stretch of plain double track. If lacking an operator for that box, it can always be locked out.

 

Does anyone know of a suitable kit for a small Midland box (Severn Models perhaps?) or do I need to chop a Ratio one in half and give it a new roof?

 

I have done a rough drawing for trackplans on the scenic side of the layout and will post on here when I have completed on the computer.

[jamie92208]

Following on from some very helpful replies on the question of one box or two for the main station (Dewsbury Thornhill / Dewsbury & Thornhill), I have concluded that only one box is needed there so I can just about justify a second small box at the small station on Phase 1 of the layout (Huddersfield Road Dewsbury / Dewsbury West Town). That will give some more signals on the Phase 1 section of the layout and I feel that is important as working signals will add visual interest to what is otherwise just a stretch of plain double track. If lacking an operator for that box, it can always be locked out.

 

Does anyone know of a suitable kit for a small Midland box (Severn Models perhaps?) or do I need to chop a Ratio one in half and give it a new roof?

 

I have done a rough drawing for trackplans on the scenic side of the layout and will post on here when I have completed on the computer.

 

As t the spacing of boxes.  There was a physical limit as to how far a run of point rodding could be pulled by a signalman.  IIRC it's about 200 yards.  Signal wires it's about half a mile.  This if the pointwork at either end of the island platform was more than 400 yards apart then there would have been two boxes.

 

As to kits there is a 7mm one by I think Severn odels and also a small one by Skytrex.  The Old Airfix one is a Midland box based I think on Oakham for 4mm.. Don't know about 2mm.

 

Jamie

[meil]

.. Don't know about 2mm.

 

Jamie

Modelex do a 2mm model. Ex Churchward. Edited November 7, 2016 by meil

[Jub45565]

Churchward/Modelex/Precision paints do one in either 2, 4 or 7mm scale.  It can be built in several sizes to suit the location.

 

http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/churchward-models/churchward-building-kits/gwr-timber-built-signal-box-3.html

 

York modelmaking do a laser cut one too but only in 4mm as far as I can see.

 

http://www.yorkmodelmaking.co.uk/00-scale/midland-railway-signal-box

Churchward/Modelex/Precision paints do one in either 2, 4 or 7mm scale.  It can be built in several sizes to suit the location.

 

http://www.phoenix-paints.co.uk/churchward-models/churchward-building-kits/gwr-timber-built-signal-box-3.html

 

York modelmaking do a laser cut one too but only in 4mm as far as I can see.

 

http://www.yorkmodelmaking.co.uk/00-scale/midland-railway-signal-box

[Joseph_Pestell]

That Churchward one looks good as it can be modified.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Done a lot more drawing this morning and, as tends to be the way, things have got more complicated!

 

I have come to the conclusion that the low-level goods yard was really only relevant to the later Midland projects for a West Riding Line.

 

Going back to the original proposals with the branch to Huddersfield via Kirkheaton and onwards to Halifax and Bradford via Queensbury, the junction station needs to be a bit bigger so I have added a bay platform and moved the goods yard to be beside the station. Not difficult to do as the baseboard has to be wide there anyway for the return curves to the fiddleyard.

 

Moving the station to the south bank initially meant losing both the carriage siding and the parcels bay. The new bay can be used for parcels as well as Branch trains and has also led to a south end layout with a carriage siding between the Main and Branch lines.

 

Am much happier now with the layout at that end. Even if it is Phase 2 and probably won't be started for a couple of years, it matters to me to know that I can get that bit right so that it fits in with Phase 1 which models the north bank of the river.

 

Edit: Will try to transfer from the other computer in such a way as to post the new plan here.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just listed all the points, FPLs,  signals, ground signals. Got up to 60 now for the main station, still just about within range for a single box rather than two.

 

Quite hard work mentally and that is before even trying to work out which order they come in within the frame to make interlocking as easy as possible. But I like to operate a layout via the signalling, so it's an important part of the layout design process for me.

 

Much quicker, I have also worked out the small 12-lever box to feature at Dewsbury West Town / Dewsbury Huddersfield Rd on the basis that I will put a siding there to have just a bit of operational interest on Phase 1 of the layout. Indeed, I have seen that it may well be possible to have a Phase 1a of the layout just modelled from the tunnel mouth to the Huddersfield Rd bridge with a tall building (probably a pub) hiding the exit at that end.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Looking at various suppliers yesterday. York Modelmaking have the most amazing 2mm scale footbridge, just ideal for the scenic break at the south end.

 

If I can do the necessary drawings, I may also ask them to laser-cut the viaduct components. But I have not seen much laser-cut stonework other than regular-shaped blocks. I suppose that it can be done.