Unloading of Coal from Mineral Wagons in non LNER Areas

[davefromacrossthepond]

While this may be a silly question, I have not been able to determine an answer.  I would like to model the unloading of coal from wagons to either coal merchant bins or for use as fuel at mills/factories during the big four era.  Other than in LNER areas, were there any other places that utilized elevated coal drops that would allow unloading through bottom doors as with hoppers?  

[Michael Edge]

L&Y and GC also used coal drops.

[Mark Saunders]

It all depends on the customer and facilities provided and what year!

 

Heaton North Yard had a rail served merchant in 1994 and grab discharged minerals and this was in the middle of LNER teritory!

 

Mark Saunders

[Fat Controller]

It all depends on the customer and facilities provided and what year!

 

Heaton North Yard had a rail served merchant in 1994 and grab discharged minerals and this was in the middle of LNER teritory!

 

Mark Saunders

Likewise Blaydon.

There were some LMS facilities in South London which used bottom-door discharge, I believe. South of Yorkshire, even on the LNER, bottom-discharge unloading facilities were not common; there were some in the Mile End/ Bow area on the GE, which continued to be used for sand after coal traffic ceased.

I suspect they may not have been popular with coal merchants, as the drop probably caused a lot of degradation of the more friable coals- users didn't like to have a lot of fine coal, as it didn't give a lively fire on an open grate. I certainly remember parents and neighbours complaining if there was what they considered to be an excess of smaller coal in a load.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Likewise Blaydon.

There were some LMS facilities in South London which used bottom-door discharge, I believe. South of Yorkshire, even on the LNER, bottom-discharge unloading facilities were not common; there were some in the Mile End/ Bow area on the GE, which continued to be used for sand after coal traffic ceased.

I suspect they may not have been popular with coal merchants, as the drop probably caused a lot of degradation of the more friable coals- users didn't like to have a lot of fine coal, as it didn't give a lively fire on an open grate. I certainly remember parents and neighbours complaining if there was what they considered to be an excess of smaller coal in a load.

The former LMS (Midland) coal depot in Walworth became a LB Southwark depot for waste lorries. A few years ago it was still possible to see quite a lot of the old rail facilities. I don't know if one still can.

 

As Mark says, era also matters. In BR days, coal traffic was often "rationalised" into a few "coal concentration depots". I recall the 1970s trains to Chessington being hopper wagons so there must have been coal drops there.

Edited November 8, 2016 by Joseph_Pestell

[TheSignalEngineer]

L&Y and GC also used coal drops.

The former GCR Glossop Coal Drops are now part of the garden centre.

 

 

[Fat Controller]

The former LMS (Midland) coal depot in Walworth became a LB Southwark depot for waste lorries. A few years ago it was still possible to see quite a lot of the old rail facilities. I don't know if one still can.

 

As Mark says, era also matters. In BR days, coal traffic was often "rationalised" into a few "coal concentration depots". I recall the 1970s trains to Chessington being hopper wagons so there must have been coal drops there.

Chessington and Tolworth, along with many other CCDs, were purpose-built sites, dating from the early 1960s, featuring hopper discharge on to a conveyor under the tracks. Some other depots were modernised to have end tipplers, with the rails being supported on two plates that could be elevated on the outer ends, enabling discharge via the end doors. These tipplers could also discharge hoppers into the pit between the two plates. There was one such at Dible's Wharf (Southampton) and another at Lincoln.

[Nearholmer]

JP

 

You're not getting confused between walworth road coal depot and the Lambeth "dust sidings", which were adjacent are you?

 

More generally, wagons could have bottom, side, or end doors, or a combination thereof. Bottom and end doors needed special unloading facilities, side doors didn't. In the south of England, the usual way of discharging a coal wagon was through the side doors, by hard graft, with only a few specialist depots having "drops", and a few factories, gas works etc having end discharge facilities.

 

So far as I know, the specialist coal depots with drops were no further south than London, where there were several, although the midland railway did own a depot at Maidstone, I think that was 'on the flat'.

 

On the flat, wagon side doors were often propped, despite it being forbidden, and used as a working platform for filling and weighing coal sacks, which were then heaved direct onto a lorry.

 

I should also mention that. Few places had rotary tipplers, in which wagons were turned right over to discharge them; again factories, gas works etc.

 

As has been discussed here before, in the south at least, unloading direct to bins seems not to have been common, the bins usually being some distance from the track, open-end towards the cart-way adjacent the siding. There must have been a lot of shovelling and barrowing involved!

 

Kevin

Edited November 8, 2016 by Nearholmer

[TheSignalEngineer]

The former LMS (Midland) coal depot in Walworth became a LB Southwark depot for waste lorries. A few years ago it was still possible to see quite a lot of the old rail facilities. I don't know if one still can.

 

As Mark says, era also matters. In BR days, coal traffic was often "rationalised" into a few "coal concentration depots". I recall the 1970s trains to Chessington being hopper wagons so there must have been coal drops there.

I worked occasionally at a coal merchant in Birmingham where a relative was the manager in the 1950s/1960s.

All we had was shovels and muscle power. Drive the lorry alongside a 7-plank or 16-Tonner, drop the wagon door onto the flatbed and start shovelling. If it was for immediate delivery it went straight into the bags, but for storage it was taken to the bins and shovelled off again.

 

Around 1964 all of the local yards closed and a Coal Concentration Depot was opened at Small Heath. This was operated by LCP (iirc). Coal came in trains of 21T hoppers and there was a discharge hut with a conveyor system which took the coal to the bins or bagging machine.

[davefromacrossthepond]

Thank you all for pretty much confirming what I was thinking (but didn't have any real hard evidence to support).  My current layout thought is an industrial type setting of GWR/Southern in the 1930s/1940s and I want to be able to "unload" coal to both merchants and a small mill/factory.  An old professor once told me that everything depends on "who's ox is being gored" a flat unloading site makes it easier for me to model, although much much harder on my little OO workers.  Thanks to all! (I'm simply blown away on how many answers come up in less than a day!).

Dave

[Nearholmer]

How about this, to add a bit of interest to the transport of coal to your mill?

 

OK, It actually fed a gasworks, and it was at Berkhamsted, which is c25 miles north of London, but ......

[MarcD]

Maryport and Carlisle and the LNWR (West Cumberland District) used Coal hoppers and discharge cells. Also some Furness Stations had discharge cells this was because the coal supply came from the North Eastern.

 

Marc

[davefromacrossthepond]

Nearholmer,

 

Oh wow, that is a fantastic picture indeed!  It simply begs to be modelled (perhaps unloading into narrow gauge wagons).  Thanks!!!!

 

Dave

[ejstubbs]

On the flat, wagon side doors were often propped, despite it being forbidden, and used as a working platform for filling and weighing coal sacks, which were then heaved direct onto a lorry.

 

There's a good photo of that practice on page 49 on Bob Essery's Freight Train Operation for the Railway Modeller.  Model that, then keep the book handy for when someone tells you that it would never have happen because it wasn't allowed...

Edited November 9, 2016 by ejstubbs

[31A]

On the LNER (but not ex North Eastern Railway) I'm aware of coal drops existing at Welwyn North (GNR) and Wymondham (GER).

[Peter Heather]

If you were modelling a relatively small industrial site, albeit with quite a few wagons arriving every day, you could install a wagon tippler that would provide some interesting movement. The pre war Croydon A power station, which was on a comparatively small site, had one tippler that is shown alongside the loco in the photo. The much larger Croydon B power station built in 1951 had a much bigger arrangement that did much the same thing but was enclosed in a brick building, presumably to reduce dust.

 

Peter

 

 

[davefromacrossthepond]

Interesting to see that rotary tippers were also used.  If I do go that route, it would be interesting to see if the Walthers tipper could be modified.  One simple question - lots of great answers (and plenty of info for Google searches indeed!).  Thanks all!

[corneliuslundie]

Not relevant to your period, but by far the biggest group of 16T mineral wagons built by BR was to Diagram 108 and they didn't have bottom doors.

As far as I am aware, end doors were used most at docks, except in the North East where they had staithes. I have seen examples of end door unloading facilities inland, but not many.

As has been said, coal merchants usually had nothing more sophisticated than a shovel.

I have a feeling that the Midland Railway depot close to St Pancras also had coal drops.

Jonathan

[Nearholmer]

"I have a feeling that the Midland Railway depot close to St Pancras also had coal drops."

 

It, or rather they, did, absolutely oodles of them. There were several MR coal depots, and an adjacent GN one, with drops in the area. We discussed it another thread, and I found some cracking photos in the NRM archive, but can't recall which thread!

 

It would be worth scouring other big cities for drops too, because it would seem logical that they would have had dedicated coal depots, as in London. Birmingham? Edinburgh? Liverpool, Manchester and Bristol ..... although I wonder if these last three got most of their coal by water or very locally.

 

K

Edited November 11, 2016 by Nearholmer

[Fat Controller]

"I have a feeling that the Midland Railway depot close to St Pancras also had coal drops."

 

It, or rather they, did, absolutely oodles of them. There were several MR coal depots, and an adjacent GN one, with drops in the area. We discussed it another thread, and I found some cracking photos in the NRM archive, but can't recall which thread!

 

It would be worth scouring other big cities for drops too, because it would seem logical that they would have had dedicated coal depots, as in London. Birmingham? Edinburgh? Liverpool, Manchester and Bristol ..... although I wonder if these last three got most of their coal by water or very locally.

 

K

I found this site whilst trying to find something about the yards at Somers Town/ St Pancras; it's the facilities on the LNWR at Camden:- http://www.crht1837.org/history/camdengoodsdepot 

[Nearholmer]

Thanks Brian.

 

I've already had a bit of a delve in that site, but I still haven't answered "the coal question" about Camden.

 

My first assumption was that the L&B and early LNWR must have had a London coal depot, but now I'm far less sure, because I can't find one at Camden.

 

Did you find one there?

 

I've even begun to wonder if the L&B didn't see coal as a traffic, and that if any was coming to London from the Black Country it came by canal.

 

Kevin

[Fat Controller]

Thanks Brian.

 

I've already had a bit of a delve in that site, but I still haven't answered "the coal question" about Camden.

 

My first assumption was that the L&B and early LNWR must have had a London coal depot, but now I'm far less sure, because I can't find one at Camden.

 

Did you find one there?

 

I've even begun to wonder if the L&B didn't see coal as a traffic, and that if any was coming to London from the Black Country it came by canal.

 

Kevin

I think you might be correct about the position of coal traffic on the L&B during the early days. At the time the L&B arrived in London, however, the settlements to the north of Euston were probably much more like a series of large villages, rather than the solid urbanisation we see today. As such, each settlement next to the railway probably had its own coal depot.

Bristol certainly seems to have developed like that; R A Cooke's excellent book of track plans of the Bristol area only has one dedicated coal depot shown, that of Western Fuels at Wapping Wharf which opened as late as 1966, and closed to rail in 1987. I have seen views showing coal wagons being dealt with at Pylle Hill goods depot, and know that coal merchants had facilities at Montpelier and Clifton Down.

[Nearholmer]

Places like Harrow were certainly very separate, and Willesden Junction was an idyllic spot, in the middle of orchards and market gardens, but I was thinking of coal going towards the centre of town. Maybe there just wasn't enough demand at this very early period, with river trade sufficient. But, what about soon after? Did the LNWR never create a large coal trade, or did it flow into the several depots along the NLR, a couple of which were big ones? Maybe I will pursue ....... one day.

 

My mental mapping of the coal and goods flows of late-Victorian London is getting pretty well populated, but every obsession has to have its limits!

[Fat Controller]

Places like Harrow were certainly very separate, and Willesden Junction was an idyllic spot, in the middle of orchards and market gardens, but I was thinking of coal going towards the centre of town. Maybe there just wasn't enough demand at this very early period, with river trade sufficient. But, what about soon after? Did the LNWR never create a large coal trade, or did it flow into the several depots along the NLR, a couple of which were big ones? Maybe I will pursue ....... one day.

 

My mental mapping of the coal and goods flows of late-Victorian London is getting pretty well populated, but every obsession has to have its limits!

How much of the Midlands coalfields were served by the LNWR? Most of the Black Country pits were served by the GWR, I believe, whilst many of the pits around Nuneaton were linked to the Midland.

[Guy Rixon]

Thanks Brian.

 

I've already had a bit of a delve in that site, but I still haven't answered "the coal question" about Camden.

 

My first assumption was that the L&B and early LNWR must have had a London coal depot, but now I'm far less sure, because I can't find one at Camden.

 

Did you find one there?

 

I've even begun to wonder if the L&B didn't see coal as a traffic, and that if any was coming to London from the Black Country it came by canal.

 

Kevin

 

 

I don't think any railway had much coal traffic into London until after 1850. There's an article by Keith Turton in Railway Archive with more details of the start of the traffic, but I can't find my copy at the moment.

 

Early coal traffic into London was mainly by sea and by lighterage up the Thames. I think the early LNWR coal depots may have been at the waterside, off the NLR or the WLER.