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The Flying Scotsman BBC4 29 December 9PM


Paul.Uni

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What the Hell has East Enders got to do with the price of fish?

 

My objection to the £4million spent by the NRM on Flying Jockstrap is that it is not the job of the NRM to fund expensive restorations, and non-authentic modifications, to a loco that is only famous for being the darling of the LNER publicity machine, to allow it to run on the mainline so relatively wealthy "enthusiasts" can quaff wine and scoff fine food behind it.  OK, it is doing a "tour" of some heritage lines which makes it slightly more accessible, but that £4million should have been spent on other conservation jobs, not a celebrity kettle.  We all know the APT conservation group are working on their Jack Jones to try and keep a far more important piece of railway technology in one piece.  The Class 306 EMU which ran on the mainline back in the 1990s, and again technologically and developmentally of more significance than FS, is rotting away.  If the NRM is the National Steam Celebrity Museum, then it should come clean.  If it really is the National RAILWAY museum, it should prioritise it's funds to improve access to it's collection of documents and artefacts that tell the story of the development of the railways, and on keeping some of it's less glamourous items in good nick.  The NRM isn't a funfair or theme park.  It could have put Flying Jockstrap in the Great Hall alongside the arguably more significant Mallard and it would have been fulfilling it's role to keep the loco for posterity, and used the remaining millions of pounds to undertake it's proper role as an educational charity.

 

Scotsman is not significant technologically or in any historical context apart from it's "100mph" claim, which is disputed by those who support copper kettles anyway.  It's the loco equivalent of a reality TV star, famous for being famous.  And it's not worthy of spending millions on by an educational charity so it can entertain those who've got the money to ride behind it.  I'm sure Ian Riley has done a grand job and no-one is denigrating that, it's the cock-eyed decision making by the NRM that is being criticised, and no-one will convince me that the NRM, an educational charity, should be in the entertainment business.

The fact is, that Scotsman is the NRM's public icon. The Museum needs something to which the public relates and that is Flying Scotsman. No amount of thrusting the APT at the public will do what 'Scotsman' does. To the public APT will always be another British failure that cost a lot, and one that made passengers feel sick. That's not to denigrate the efforts of the APT-E team - it's a fabulous train and deserves to be looked after, but no amount of stressing its successes or re-writing history will give it a public image on a par with Scotsman. And can you imagine the outcry when Scotsman does eventually have to be plinthed. It'll make the grounding of XH558 look like a picnic. Yes, Scotsman owes its public image largely to the LNER public relations department but that is a story in itself worth telling. Without the aid of TV, computers or social media, the LNER made one of its trains/locomotives a household name.(CJL)

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I really enjoyed it. As others pointed out, it was quite a subtle use of the famous machine. Good use of drone footage (I assume it was a drone?).

 

Whilst I wouldn't have enjoyed being at such a busy event with everyone scrambling to get a photo, it is pleasing to see just how much attention the loco was getting. Small crossings rammed with people. No evidence of trespass as far as I noticed.

 

If this 'slow TV' thing catches on, a series of similar programmes for different heritage lines and iconic routes would be great. Not a big money spinner for the beeb but excellent Sunday evening viewing when doing the ironing! NYMR, S&C, Ffestiniog, Fort William-Mallaig to make up season 1?

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If this 'slow TV' thing catches on, a series of similar programmes for different heritage lines and iconic routes would be great. Not a big money spinner for the beeb but excellent Sunday evening viewing when doing the ironing! NYMR, S&C, Ffestiniog, Fort William-Mallaig to make up season 1?

This program was not "slow TV" in the sense of what has previously been shown - far too much spoken descriptions in it. Now if they were to plunk a camera or two on a Barrow-Carlisle or a

Machynlleth-Pwllheli   service that would be true "slow" TV but I suspect no TOC is going to willing to have their service promoted as such. Was half expected a pop up text box on the screen describing Victoria Bridge (like the Dalesbus one)  but it did not get any mention whatsoever.
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Thanks to Paul Uni [OP] for the heads up on this, just watched it on i-player. Very well filmed and edited, great drone shots, very amenable footplate crew and some good explanations about what was going on (token exchanges, operation of loco, etc.)   Nice to see all of the Severn Valley. Might just have to watch it again...

 

Flying Scotsman obviously a very popular visitor to the SVR, they must have done well out of it.

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I watched the later showing as I missed it at 21:00.

 

I thought it was very good that 2 members from the NRM were there to help the crew who drove her as they had never driven her before.

 

But I have to say they did very well considering it was their 1st time driving 60103.

Scotsman is not really much different to being on an A1 or A4. The crew both have experience of both and could have comfortably done the job without them, but it is all about keeping owners happy as well.

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This program was not "slow TV" in the sense of what has previously been shown - far too much spoken descriptions in it. Now if they were to plunk a camera or two on a Barrow-Carlisle or a

Machynlleth-Pwllheli   service that would be true "slow" TV but I suspect no TOC is going to willing to have their service promoted as such. Was half expected a pop up text box on the screen describing Victoria Bridge (like the Dalesbus one)  but it did not get any mention whatsoever.

 

 

As I pointed out earlier, there is another version being shown on New Years Day without commentary or talking from the crew.

 

 

 

Jason

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All very entertaining. I was expecting the usual Gresley thrashings at Grantham (sorry, Bridgnorth) but Roger controlled the beast beautifully.

 

Everybody on the footplate was being very alert and careful - and who can blame them with the numbers of people at occupation crossings etc? Reminded me of 11/8/68.

 

By the way, Ryan the fireman usually works with a smaller shovel - he fires on the Talyllyn, a most wonderful railway which you should all visit. *UNASHAMED PLUG*

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I watched this on iplayer last night, it didn't really hold my attention. Yes the drone shots and some of the scenic shots were great, but there was a little to much from the footplate and not enough of "what the driver's seeing". Maybe split screen could have been used.

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I watched the later showing as I missed it at 21:00.

 

I thought it was very good that 2 members from the NRM were there to help the crew who drove her as they had never driven her before.

 

But I have to say they did very well considering it was their 1st time driving 60103.

SVR crews will be used to handling 3-cylinder Pacifics, albeit rather more modern ones............ :devil:

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SVR crews will be used to handling 3-cylinder Pacifics, albeit rather more modern ones............ :devil:

 Sorry your point mystifies me, which do you mean?

 

Given what is left after the various rebuilds, most of the front end is reasonably modern. While 60163 may be of a similar age it has three sets of valve gear.

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I watched a few snatches of it but I do wonder about the Driver's knowledge of Rules & Regs when he referred to 'tokenless block using acceptance levers' between Bewdley South and Kidderminster ( I believe the SVR still works to 1960s Rules & Regs although they might have updated since a few years back?).

The official name of the method of working between Bewdley South and Kidderminster, according to the SVR Signalling Regs, is the "Acceptance Lever System", with no use of the words "tokenless block". The Acceptance Lever System has been used for the BS-KR section since KR box was commissioned in 1987.

 

The SVR rulebook received a major rewrite over five years ago now and has had two sets of amendments issued since. It is largely based on the 1960s rules.

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The official name of the method of working between Bewdley South and Kidderminster, according to the SVR Signalling Regs, is the "Acceptance Lever System", with no use of the words "tokenless block". The Acceptance Lever System has been used for the BS-KR section since KR box was commissioned in 1987.

 

The SVR rulebook received a major rewrite over five years ago now and has had two sets of amendments issued since. It is largely based on the 1960s rules.

 

Thanks - I had assumed that was probably the case as I knew the section was commissioned with Acceptance Lever working hence my mild surprise at (and comment on here about) him using the term 'tokenless block', which it patently isn't (as different Regulations applied to Tokenless Block).

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Many years ago there was an interview with a NRM staff member who said they used to get asked on more days than enough "where is the Scotsman?" This was before the locomotive became part of the national collection.

 

Looks like the Beeb have a version without commentary on tonight.

 

Last night the neighbours mentioned they expected more of the scenery.

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The official name of the method of working between Bewdley South and Kidderminster, according to the SVR Signalling Regs, is the "Acceptance Lever System", with no use of the words "tokenless block". The Acceptance Lever System has been used for the BS-KR section since KR box was commissioned in 1987.

The SVR rulebook received a major rewrite over five years ago now and has had two sets of amendments issued since. It is largely based on the 1960s rules.

What worried me was his apparent lack of knowledge of the working of rule 55 in the context of a single line, in possession of a token and a diamond on the signal. No whistle on reaching the signal and sending the fireman to do what exactly?

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The Scotsman programme was pathetic. (not wishing to denigrate the loco or it's crew or even it's restoration - the film was just boring to me)

 

If you want to watch steam locos hard at work watch this.

 

 

Put 12 behind the Flying Jockstrap and give her a blast over Shap.

 

Brit15

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I enjoyed the program, despite the internal moan when it was announced; 'not skiving flotsam again'.  But this is an enthusiast's viewpoint and a bit elitist.  I, too, wonder what the NRM could have done with £4milliion (£6.8million?) beer tokens, but as a lot of that money came from the Lottery and would not have been forthcoming for any loco other than The Great Media Star, it is a bit academic.  Time to remember that there is only one preserved A3 and that if the entire class had been scrapped, which it would have been if Alan Pegler hadn't stepped in, someone would now be building a new one.  It represents the phase of development of the wide firebox big boiler concept that lies between the GNR Atlantics (one of each type preserved) and the iconic A4s (arguably too many preserved) and is of importance to the historic continuity of the record.

 

The loco was a bag of nails when Pegler bought it, and has had an 'interesting' life since which has not improved matters.  The NRM are, in my view, the best people to own it given it's seductive qualities to business types who can see a way of marketing it to be self-supporting, and whom it promptly bankrupts, and I seriously doubt that the NRM could have raised the necessary to buy it had they intended to use it as a static display; I for one am going to stick my neck over the parapet and say that I am glad they restored it as a running loco in effectively 'ex works' condition, especially as much of the money would never have been available for other projects anyway.

 

Flying Scotsman is iconic for little more than the way it's name scans, but to many outside the railway or railway enthusiast world it conjures vague but nonetheless very powerful concepts to do with the romance, the 'golden age' whenever that was, Cicely Courtenage in clouds of steam on the platform at Carnforth, this is the Night Mail crossing the border, a confused mish mash of all that sort of stuff that they actually know very little about; many talk about the Flying Scot, or Royal Scotchman, Scotch Flyer, or other half formed wholly uninformed concepts.  Others are enthralled by some rose tinted view of British (dammit, Carruthers) engineering, best in the world don't y'know, we led the world in those days, craftsmen we were, aye lad (sorry, slipped into cloth cap mode there for a second), ignoring the incredibly outdated, crude, and inefficient methods and working practices which were the norm in railway workshops in the years between the wars.  The concepts feed into the feeling that things were better in those days, you could leave your front doors open and there was none of all this drugs and petty crime.

 

The good old days weren't that good, especially for the workers.  Consumption, polio, not enough food, infant mortality, depression, the odd war (which, to be fair was no respecter of class); I am thankful to have been born in 1952 in Cardiff, which I consider the best possible time and one of the best possible places to have been born out of the entire space/time continuum so far.

 

It was a good illustration of how steam locos are driven with some excellent explanations from the crew, especially the driver who managed to show you what was going on without being overtechnical, a harder trick to pull off than it sounds.  I doubt many BR firemen would have been so concerned or embarrassed at their safety valves lifting!   The sound on the drone shots was quiet because they were some way off and the loco was not being thrashed; I was impressed with whatever it was that filtered the drone noise out.  

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What worried me was his apparent lack of knowledge of the working of rule 55 in the context of a single line, in possession of a token and a diamond on the signal. No whistle on reaching the signal and sending the fireman to do what exactly?

There was no lack of knowledge. The train was booked to run non stop and the instructions given around its running were if held to phone immediately rather than wait. The fireman was sent to ring the bobby and ask him what was going on. Everyone was on their toes about timekeeping. As for a whistle you would not hear it in Kidder box from the viaduct.

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The Scotsman programme was pathetic. (not wishing to denigrate the loco or it's crew or even it's restoration - the film was just boring to me)

 

If you want to watch steam locos hard at work watch this.

 

 

Put 12 behind the Flying Jockstrap and give her a blast over Shap.

 

Brit15

The programme wasnt meant to be an edge of seat experience, it was one of BBC4's slow programmes, a programme to sit back and enjoy without loud explosions, folk being murdered, cars crashing etc etc.  The loco was on a preserved railway with a low line speed so would not have been thrashing, surely you picked up on that before you watched it?

 

If it was so pathetic to you, then show us what you can make

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