Why Aren't Empty Stock Workings Ever Advertised as Service Trains.

[D854_Tiger]

For example, there is a morning Virgin Voyager service, starting from Rugby (06:20) and running via Northampton (its only call) then non-stop to Euston.

 

This train runs empty from Barton Under Needwood to Rugby to take up its timetabled path, a move that involves a reversal at New St (taking twenty minutes).

 

The train could easily be advertised as a New St - Euston service, running non-stop to Rugby, without any additional timetable or staffing consequences but instead runs completely empty.

 

There must be plenty of other examples and, OK, i'm sure they would hardly generate a great deal of extra revenue but even if it's only one extra ticket it's worth doing surely.

[griffgriff]

For example, there is a morning Virgin Voyager service, starting from Rugby (06:20) and running via Northampton (its only call) then non-stop to Euston.

 

This train runs empty from Barton Under Needwood to Rugby to take up its timetabled path, on a move that involves a reversal at New St (taking twenty minutes).

 

The train could easily be advertised as a New St - Euston service, running non-stop to Rugby, without any additional timetable or staffing consequences but instead runs completely empty.

 

There must be plenty of other examples and, OK, i'm sure they would hardly generate a great deal of extra revenue but even if it's only one extra ticket it's worth doing surely.

One ticket on a train into London at that time in the morning would probably pay for the crew, fuel and track charges.

 

Griff

[Enterprisingwestern]

Presumably in these franchise days of line capacity, sharing passengers etc, they aren't allowed to "poach" passengers from another operator?

 

Mike.

[Fat Controller]

That's if there's a crew on board; it's quite likely to be a driver-only transfer, with guard/ train manager joining at Rugby. If the crew joined at BNS, they'd have to get there, and start earlier, which might impinge on other duties. You might also find that the 20 minutes at BNS is only the time in the book, and that the train can leave a lot earlier. I've known positioning works run eight hours early on occasion, and equally be cancelled, if the stock can unexpectedly be provided from another source.

[Davexoc]

The 06.20 from Rugby is the 06.41 from Northampton arriving at Euston at 07.31.

It'll cost you £32.50 single, which is the same as LM.....

 

Dave

[Edwin_m]

Some of these early/late ECS workings take unusual routes due to engineering work, or indeed are scheduled to do so to keep up crew route knowledge for diversions.  So instead of going to New Street it could run (in principle at least, I don't know if it ever does) via reversal at Lichfield Trent Valley; via Water Orton, Walsall and Bescot then either one of several routes to New Street or avoiding it via the Grand Junction; or perhaps even via Nuneaton.  Use of one of these other routes would change its departure time from New Street or prevent it calling there at all. 

[Market65]

There is a service from Hull to Beverley,  departing Hull, 18.44, arriving at Beverley at 18.57. No advertised return to Hull. Actually the unit returns to Hull ECS. about 5 minutes after it's arrival at Beverley. In addition to the driver there is a conductor/guard. They have to be paid for the return to Hull. It makes no sense at all to have the unit - usually a 142 - work back ECS. Surely, in this case, it would make more sense if it ran back  to Hull Paragon as an advertised passenger carrying train?

 

Regards,

 

Rob.

[Zomboid]

If that train was a public service, it would have to run into a platform (which it may do anyhow) and would be subject to the public timetable. An ECS only has to arrive at its next station in time to form its next service, not within 5 minutes of an advertised time.

If there's little demand for a train service at a given time, then the flexibility an ECS allows is worth it.

[Derekstuart]

Having been through this with road transport the response will be this:

"Dear editor/sir
I was disgusted to learn today that [insert name of bus/rail/ferry/air operator] runs an additional [bus/train/ship/aircraft] at ab:yz in the morning/afternoon when no one is using it. Yet at cd:wx they do not run the extra service.

I demand my human rights to have that additional service run at the time when I want it and not at the silly time they use it now when no one wants it." #lifesnotfaaaaaiiiiiir

 

 

Joking aside, a letter very similar to the above happened once when I registered a road service as live rather than empty.

[PaulRhB]

Additionally it doesn't cost anything to cancel or modify the timings around engineering works for a class 5 train. The service it usually forms can then be short formed, and strengthened later, off another or taken down the night before without being fined etc.

[Oldddudders]

In later BR days one of the virility symbols imposed by the Department was to reduce ECS mileage. So the OP's idea was in widespread use as "disguised empties", particularly getting rid of trains from Southern termini in the morning peak. A semi-fast train from Charing Cross to Addiscombe, for example, at about 08.30, attracted few punters, but got the stock out of the way and into a cleaning and berthing location. 

 

The complexities of the modern railway and its timetabling and revenue issues are well beyond my understanding. 

[HillsideDepot]

Additionally it doesn't cost anything to cancel or modify the timings around engineering works for a class 5 train. The service it usually forms can then be short formed, and strengthened later, off another or taken down the night before without being fined etc.

 

That possibly raises an interesting question, as GWR (maybe others too) run some ECS as class 5 and some as class 3. I've never managed to find an answer to this, beyond the suggestion that a class 3 has a "full crew" (Guard/Buffet) on board whereas a class 5 is Driver only. Now this has point about engineering works has been raised I wonder if that is part of it too? 

 

And to pick up on Derekstuart's point, having scheduled 300 drivers on 165 vehicles from 15 depots/out-stations myself in the past those letters do indeed come in from the public. I've also had the amusing/ludicrous situation where I could run a bus back to the main depot in service on a tightly timed evening council contract via several housing estate and town detours faster than I could run back on the "agreed" dead run time down the main road! To make it even worse, as a quirk of how one of the estates on the far side of a certain out-lying country town was served, I had two buses leaving at the same time, one on contract the other empty, with the relevant disparity in times back at the depot! 

 

And like Oddduddrs, I too have been through the 'maximise service mileage'/'run dead (ecs) to save platform (driver) time' cycle as managers have come and gone with varying views on how it should be done.

 

It's all part of the fun (to us, but nightmare to most) of scheduling.

[31A]

At the TOC I wor

 

That possibly raises an interesting question, as GWR (maybe others too) run some ECS as class 5 and some as class 3. I've never managed to find an answer to this, beyond the suggestion that a class 3 has a "full crew" (Guard/Buffet) on board whereas a class 5 is Driver only. Now this has point about engineering works has been raised I wonder if that is part of it too? 

And to pick up on Derekstuart's point, having scheduled 300 drivers on 165 vehicles from 15 depots/out-stations myself in the past those letters do indeed come in from the public. I've also had the amusing/ludicrous situation where I could run a bus back to the main depot in service on a tightly timed evening council contract via several housing estate and town detours faster than I could run back on the "agreed" dead run time down the main road! To make it even worse, as a quirk of how one of the estates on the far side of a certain out-lying country town was served, I had two buses leaving at the same time, one on contract the other empty, with the relevant disparity in times back at the depot! 

And like Oddduddrs, I too have been through the 'maximise service mileage'/'run dead (ecs) to save platform (driver) time' cycle as managers have come and gone with varying views on how it should be done.

It's all part of the fun (to us, but nightmare to most) of scheduling.

 

At the TOC I worked for, we asked for certain ECS trains to be described as Class 3s rather than Class 5s to emphasise their priority to the signalmen, e.g. a train from a depot to a station which then formed an important passenger train soon after arrival, rather than an ECS which could within reason 'run when ready'.  The signalmen weren't always aware of the ECS unit's next working or how soon it was booked to depart as a passenger train after its arrival, and were inclined to give lower priority to ECS trains over passenger trains, which wasn't always the best thing to do.

[caradoc]

For many years the first passenger train from Lanark, and the morning peak Scotrail service from Carstairs to Glasgow, were formed by ECS from Motherwell. In the early years of privatisation these trains became passenger workings, enabling the TOC to advertise that they had increased the train service !

[Ken.W]

That possibly raises an interesting question, as GWR (maybe others too) run some ECS as class 5 and some as class 3. I've never managed to find an answer to this, beyond the suggestion that a class 3 has a "full crew" (Guard/Buffet) on board whereas a class 5 is Driver only. Now this has point about engineering works has been raised I wonder if that is part of it too?

The matter of Guard / DOO doesn't seem to have anything to do with it, it's the 'importance' of the working. It tends to be trains traveling ecs to form a booked service from another location (as opposed to local depot / station or out of service workings) that run as Class 3.

For example, the morning ecs workings to Berwick and Sunderland to form Kings X services both run as Class 3s, and although both have a Guard and convey Catering Crew from Newcastle the portion from Heaton CS to Newcastle (DOO) is also Class 3. All other Heaton / Newcastle ecs are 5s. The evening return working from Sunderland to Heaton, with Guard and Catering Crew to Newcastle, runs as a Class 5 throughout.

On Friday evenings, to balance a KX - N'cle that's extended to Edinburgh, there's an ecs that returns from Edinburgh to Heaton which runs as a Class 5. It departs 35 min. after the last passenger service, and still has to go into Newcastle station to change ends to go to the depot. I understand this one's upgraded to Class 1 next month.

 

This has happened before as well, the present 04:45 Newcastle - Kings X was originally an ecs working from Heaton to York to form the 06:00 York - KX (which it still is)

[PaulRhB]

Yes class 3 empties are priority for an important, usually peak, train they form. Basically tells you to look closely at the schedule so you don't knacker it and can ask Control what they want to do if it's 50/50 decision.

[keefer]

Think that's been used for decades - I remember a feature on somewhere just out of king's cross (Holloway bank perhaps) and there were various Up trains with either class 1,3 or 5 which otherwise all looked pretty similar. It explained that the class 3 was priority ECS going to form an important train or one with a nearer departure time, so it had to get through quicker than just a general ECS that was going to leave quite some time later. Also explained that the rest of the headcode was that of the departing service ie 3S17 was up ECS for 1S17 etc

Edited November 21, 2016 by keefer

[18B]

For many years the first passenger train from Lanark, and the morning peak Scotrail service from Carstairs to Glasgow, were formed by ECS from Motherwell. In the early years of privatisation these trains became passenger workings, enabling the TOC to advertise that they had increased the train service !

 

sneaky, but I suppose a fair way of doing it.

[Edwin_m]

Some trains that run in service are essentially there for stock positioning, so would currently need to run as ECS in any case, but might be vulnerable if the operator changed its stock or depot allocations.  Two examples on East Midlands Trains are:

• Leeds to St Pancras and return - needed because the HSTs are based at Neville Hill.  They do provide some peak workings into Nottingham from the north (but are too late to do so in the evening) so avoid EMT having to find extra units for Sheffield-Nottingham workings.  I'm not sure if they are much use between Leeds and Sheffield other than perhaps grabbing some of East Coast's Leeds-London revenue.
• The 222 units providing the Corby service also work to and from their base at Derby via Melton.  This provides a London service for Melton and Oakham but not at particularly convenient times and its future may be in doubt after Corby electrification. 

[18B]

hilo

 

lots of empty stock trains also go via odd routes to the "normal" service trains, for example the first and last ECS on the Robin hood line both go via Pinxton. but are subject to change based on engineering work.

 

Also some of the Liverpool ECCs from Nottingham eastcroft go via derby etc and via Beighton so while offering a service from Sheffield to Derby/Nottingham are via convoluted routes unsuitable for passenger use.

[Butler Henderson]

Also some of the Liverpool ECCs from Nottingham eastcroft go via derby etc and via Beighton so while offering a service from Sheffield to Derby/Nottingham are via convoluted routes unsuitable for passenger use.

Can think of many Summer Saturday trains in the 1980s that did that  but then convoluted routes were a feature of those services.

[toffee]

There's a 170 which does a passenger service from New St to Nottingham in the evening which then goes back to New St ECS which runs via Alrewas and Lichfield and the cross city line. I'm presuming this is a move to keep this diversion route on the drivers cards as it's used on weekends when the Tamworth route is having engineering closures.

 

Not ECS but it's followed a couple of hours later by the last Newcastle - New St passenger which I presume is run this way for the same reason. This train being the only passenger scheduled service over the South Staffs Line, not that it's much use to those in Burton or Lichfield as its non stop south of Derby !

[Supaned]

There's a 170 which does a passenger service from New St to Nottingham in the evening which then goes back to New St ECS which runs via Alrewas and Lichfield and the cross city line. I'm presuming this is a move to keep this diversion route on the drivers cards as it's used on weekends when the Tamworth route is having engineering closures.

 

Not ECS but it's followed a couple of hours later by the last Newcastle - New St passenger which I presume is run this way for the same reason. This train being the only passenger scheduled service over the South Staffs Line, not that it's much use to those in Burton or Lichfield as its non stop south of Derby !

 

Correct on both counts. The 170 goes that way for Driver knowledge purposes , the Voyager (1M00) for guard knowledge purposes as the booked driver then returns ECS to Central Rivers via Lichfield as well.

 

The last XC from Reading to Birmingham runs via Foxhall Junction (reversing there) for the same reasons and also does Stechford - Aston - Soho to New Street .