RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) I have just checked one of the other coaches and discovered something very interesting... This is the second coach I checked - the white thingy on the coach body has had a chamfer "carved" along its inside edge. All four white thingys on this coach have this chamfer carved along their inside edges. I have not carved this chamfer so it must have been done in the factory or somewhere else before it got to me... The first coach that I checked does not have this chamfer on any of the white thingys. The third coach of the set that I have does have this chamfer on all of the white thingys. It looks like this bogie catching derailment problem may have become apparent to someone in the supply chain before I received my model and this carved chamfer is an, as yet unknown, somebody's attempt at a solution... Darius ‘What one man can invent another can discover.’ Edited February 23, 2018 by Darius43 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted February 23, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) No doubt with tension lock couplers and a generous amount of daylight between the coaches, this wouldn't be a problem...So then,how does that affect the unit 's trackholding on those layouts such as mine with baseboard joins with lift /drop either side of the join ? It would appear from the images that a lack of significant flexibility in the coupling unit and vertical movement in bogie design is sufficient to derail the set.I must add that a full HST 10 car unit equipped with Kadees has no problem in either direction. I sincerely hope this is not the case. Edited February 23, 2018 by Ian Hargrave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMR Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Some interesting developments and information, thanks all for posting! Especially the detailed photos by Darius. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 It certainly does get interesting. The 'roadholding' of multiple units with long coaches is clearly something of a science. Let's face it, years ago if you'd flung something like this round trainset curves on the dining table, the whole train would have ended up on the floor. I've had four multiple units running on my layout in recent months, and they all have different coupling systems: Bachmann 4CEP+MLV Bachmann Blue Pullman Rapido APT-E Hornby IET It was noticeable with the APT-E that the rigid coupling arrangement of the tilting/articulated bogies held the train in a fixed curve, in effect forcing it to follow the curve of the track and preventing centrifugal forces from causing it to derail to the outside of the curve. You could throw it round 3ft radius without any fear. The Hornby IET also has a pretty rigid coupling arrangement. True, the coupling has a pivot some distance back towards the bogie, but there is no movement at the interface between the coupling of two adjacent cars. Once coupled, you have a rigid bar joining the coaches. This bar has no vertical flexibility, so, though the five-car unit can bend horizontally to go round curves, vertically it is a rigid unit 5ft 8in (1.7m) long. If you have a significant change of gradient, upwards, within a 5ft 8in (or less) track length, the effect will be that the middle car will be lifted as it passes over the change of gradient. A significant change of gradient, downwards, might well cause the centre car to 'bottom' and/or the rear cars to lift. The modification to Darius 33's cars (I think the 'white thingy' is a yaw-damper bracket) with material pared off the inside is curious and I'm not sure quite what it is intended to achieve. Does it eliminate derailment? I've checked mine, and none of my cars have this modification. It would not be unheard of to find such 'tweaks' done during factory inspections. I seem to recall some Class 67s with evidence of filler in the body mouldings - not sure now whether they were Lima or Hornby. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) The modification to Darius 33's cars (I think the 'white thingy' is a yaw-damper bracket) with material pared off the inside is curious and I'm not sure quite what it is intended to achieve. Does it eliminate derailment? I've checked mine, and none of my cars have this modification. It would not be unheard of to find such 'tweaks' done during factory inspections. I seem to recall some Class 67s with evidence of filler in the body mouldings - not sure now whether they were Lima or Hornby. (CJL) I think the pared-off yaw damper bracket is intended to create a “ramp” that prevents the bogie from catching on the inside edge and causes it to lift up back onto the flat surface of the yaw damper bracket (white thingy) when the bogie pivots back to straight. I have a second IET and none of the brackets have this carving applied to the coaches in that set. Cheers Darius Edited February 24, 2018 by Darius43 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) A further observation. On the other side of the bogie as it pivots around sharp curves, the bogie "suspension bag" rides up against the body lifting lug thus:- This has the effect of tilting the body upwards on this side and hence downwards on the far side, which effectively guarantees that the bogie will catch on the inside edge of the damper bracket on the far side. Darius Edited February 24, 2018 by Darius43 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 A further observation. On the other side of the bogie as it pivots around sharp curves, the bogie "suspension bag" rides up against the body lifting lug thus:- 800image8.jpeg This has the effect of tilting the body upwards on this side and hence downwards on the far side, which effectively guarantees that the bogie will catch on the inside edge of the damper bracket on the far side. Darius I notice that the white component appears to be a separate moulding. Is it? If so, is it attached to the chassis or the body? Either way, the accuracy of attachment could be affecting whether it causes a problem or not. Sorry, I could examine this on my own model but it has to go in front of the camera next week so I don't wish to take it apart until afterwards. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2018 I notice that the white component appears to be a separate moulding. Is it? If so, is it attached to the chassis or the body? Either way, the accuracy of attachment could be affecting whether it causes a problem or not. Sorry, I could examine this on my own model but it has to go in front of the camera next week so I don't wish to take it apart until afterwards. (CJL) Just had a close look and it’s definitely part of the overall coach body moulding, not a separate component. Cheers Darius 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormoworm Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 On a slightly different note, can any 800 owners confirm whether or not the underside of the coaches can be removed in the same way as for the driving cars? If so I'm hoping I use that space to fit some old decoders so I can control the interior lighting throughout the train. In one of the youtube reviews there is a brief shot of the underside of a coach and there seem to be two marks of some kind, they look like they could be screw holes but it's not clear. Thanks, Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Darius43 Posted February 24, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 24, 2018 On a slightly different note, can any 800 owners confirm whether or not the underside of the coaches can be removed in the same way as for the driving cars? If so I'm hoping I use that space to fit some old decoders so I can control the interior lighting throughout the train. In one of the youtube reviews there is a brief shot of the underside of a coach and there seem to be two marks of some kind, they look like they could be screw holes but it's not clear. Thanks, Tom Just had a look. The marks are not screw holes. The “undertray” is part of the coach chassis moulding and not a separate removable item. Darius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wormoworm Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Just had a look. The marks are not screw holes. The “undertray” is part of the coach chassis moulding and not a separate removable item. Darius Thanks for checking Darius. Looks like I'll have to find open the coach in the usual way and find some space. Tom Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rob D2 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I won't be getting one , all my tiny passengers have said the seats are too hard and they prefer the HST Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foo Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 i have had a play and put some packing (copperclad sleepers) under the bogies against the chassis and still nothing. it now goes round corners, but as has been mentioned above, due to the length and coupling stiffness any tiny change in grade and its off. and thanks to poor base board building mine is very lumpy. so the only fix available ot me now is to rip it all up and start again. which, as we all know, was in the back of my mind before anyway so now i have an excuse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest theonlydt Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 I won't be getting one , all my tiny passengers have said the seats are too hard and they prefer the HST Mine haven't been on anything since corridor, slam-door, deep-sprung mocquette stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteveC32 Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 (edited) i have had a play and put some packing (copperclad sleepers) under the bogies against the chassis and still nothing. it now goes round corners, but as has been mentioned above, due to the length and coupling stiffness any tiny change in grade and its off. and thanks to poor base board building mine is very lumpy. so the only fix available ot me now is to rip it all up and start again. which, as we all know, was in the back of my mind before anyway so now i have an excuse My IETs are still on their way to me but my nephew has got his already and today ran it on my Dads layout, which has an incline part of which is on a curve, and the IET performs well (see attached video) - hope both mine perform this well. Edited February 24, 2018 by SteveC32 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
St. Simon Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 Hi, Just dribbling over the BRM review sample: Having run i this afternoon, I found that the bogie problem was lack of clearance between the bogie suspenion damper and the anchor point on the model. Only happened when being pushed through a track dip, once we removed the track dip (fairly easy on HWDMRS' Test Track), the derailment problem was cured in both directions. Still, it is a design fault by Hornby... Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted February 24, 2018 Share Posted February 24, 2018 This is a flaw in using test tracks that are always flat. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Dave Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7C1DCDA3-567E-4A35-B2CA-ECABB7B5E57A.MOV So had a test run out today and have to say all was good no derailments D6361DA8-6D1B-4D94-A609-746BA932B566.MOV 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Coryton Posted February 25, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 25, 2018 This is a flaw in using test tracks that are always flat. I could make them a test track that definitely isn't flat. As a bonus I'll throw in a few rails that aren't even in the fishplates on one side of the join. (Somehow, no matter how carefully I check...) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
royaloak Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7C1DCDA3-567E-4A35-B2CA-ECABB7B5E57A.MOV So had a test run out today and have to say all was good no derailments Now that is just showing off, I like a lot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJMR Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7C1DCDA3-567E-4A35-B2CA-ECABB7B5E57A.MOV So had a test run out today and have to say all was good no derailments It does look superb around the track! Cheers for sharing the videos 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TFR Posted February 25, 2018 Share Posted February 25, 2018 7C1DCDA3-567E-4A35-B2CA-ECABB7B5E57A.MOV So had a test run out today and have to say all was good no derailments That is very nice. What radius is the curve that it's whipping round? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted February 25, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 25, 2018 7C1DCDA3-567E-4A35-B2CA-ECABB7B5E57A.MOV So had a test run out today and have to say all was good no derailments Crikey, just wish that mine would stay on the track like that. Only way I can do that is to replace the IEP middle coaches with Pendolino middle coaches..... and then everything stays on the track. Not particularly useful though but it does show that its not my track that causes the problems, its the IEP middle coaches. Keith 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Dave Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 That is very nice. What radius is the curve that it's whipping round? third on some corners and fourth on others, but once I actually start doing some proper track laying it will probably be flexi track and better than 4th Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Dave Posted February 26, 2018 Share Posted February 26, 2018 third on some corners and fourth on others, but once I actually start doing some proper track laying it will probably be flexi track and better than 4th Their is definitely a lack of free movement on these bogies when I moved them around and they do catch on the white mouldings. Late last night I done another test run and set the track up on2nd/3rd radius and the trailing bogie in coach 3 catches as it exits the curve and onto the straight (their is a very distinctive click followed by a derail). This only occurs when the driving care is leading, when it propels it does not happen. My gut thinks their are 2 issues 1. As others have stated the catching of the bogies during movement 2. Some of the couplings not returning correctly after existing a curve possibly being caused by them not being seated correctly always Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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