National Collection in Miniature Dean Goods Class No 2516

[RedgateModels]

Took this late this afternoon, still wish it was O gauge

Edited February 16, 2023 by RedgateModels

[Edwardian]

Took this late this afternoon, still wish it was O gauge

 

I wish the wash-out plugs were not right behind the hand-rail, but you can't always get what you want ....

[BG John]

Presumably the top of the boiler is removable, and the bottom isn't. I don't think anyone has noticed the join before.

[sp1]

Took this late this afternoon, still wish it was O gauge

That comes up as a strange shade of green on my screen- what does the colour really look like?

[Quarryscapes]

That comes up as a strange shade of green on my screen- what does the colour really look like?

 

Given that all the photos by various contributors show the same shade (allowing for auto white balance error), I suspect it looks a lot like what you think it looks like! We have that colour in our front room, and it ain't on no Swindon colour chart! 

 

Presumably the top of the boiler is removable, and the bottom isn't. I don't think anyone has noticed the join before.

 

It has been noticed in the original DG thread, the lack of cabside rivets hasn't been though I don't think. 

[Miss Prism]

Dear Mr Locomotion

 

Dean Goods engines did not have rivets on their splasher fronts. Oxford Rail's dodgy scanning seems to have moved an inner line of footplate rivets to a different plane.

 

 

Btw, very few Dean Goods had rivets on the splasher tops, but that is another matter.

 

[Edwardian]

I must confess, I am struggling to see the positives by this stage.  If the Oxford release provides a tender and running chassis for scratch building round-top S2 and S4 bodies, that would be about it for me.  I am probably going to have to write off the loco body as irredeemable (at least compared with working up the Mainline body if I want a B4).  It would not make sense to use the more expensive Locomotion release for such conversions, of course.

 

Yes, it is superficially attractive in its shiny incarnation, but, as we have seen, it is not a model that can claim to represent the class in general, or 2516 in particularly with even a reasonable degree of accuracy.  Since 2516 herself exists for scanning and inspection, I am, frankly, a little staggered by this. 

 

If it were not for the fact that I assumed accuracy to begin with, I might have noticed more of the problems sooner.  Certainly a significant delay and a radical overhaul of the model would seem necessary in order to get this right. 

 

That is a horrible situation for both Oxford and Locomotion, and one is bound to feel a little sympathy at this point.  But then, Oxford could, and clearly should, have taken much more care before reaching this stage, and, as for the "NRM curators" who passed this .... Well the NRM is a wonderful thing, and free, and based upon volunteers.  It does not sit well with me to criticise these fine folk, but, surely, someone dropped the ball here?

 

The temptation for the commissioner and manufacturer must be to shrug off the criticism of half a dozen RMWeb fanatics and release as planned.  I hope not.  I have seen nit-picking going on in RMWeb topics, but I honestly do not believe that is what we have seen on this topic and the Oxford Rail topic.  There are too many rather fundamental and hard to correct mistakes before we even get to debating prototype variations.  In this case, there is a previous RTR offering for comparison; making a B4 body shell that compares unfavourably with a relatively crude 35-year old moulding is, unfortunately, a bit of an own goal on Oxford's part.

 

I sincerely hope, no doubt vainly, that those responsible for this model go back to the drawing board and get it right. 

 

My best wishes, as ever, to Locomotion.  I pray they get Oxford to sort this out.

[Edwardian]

Dear Mr Locomotion

 

Dean Goods engines did not have rivets on their splasher fronts. Oxford Rail's dodgy scanning seems to have moved an inner line of footplate rivets to a different plane.

 

dean-goods-locomotion-splashers.png

 

Btw, very few Dean Goods had rivets on the splasher tops, but that is another matter.

 

Quite.  One wonders what Oxford thought was being riveted here.

 

One positive for Oxford is that 2516 is one of those that has rivets on the splasher tops, but unfortunately that does not explain the placing of them on the splasher sides, the rendering wash-out plugs inaccessible or the rather strange cab-side!

 

BTW the splasher tops should be black, not the green shown on the sample Locomotion model.  Locomotion does not have a great record in getting splasher tops the right colour (cough, GN Atlantic, cough), so one would hope that they are now alive to this particular issue!

Edited November 28, 2016 by Edwardian

[Coach bogie]

I keep reading the Winges moans critical concerns regarding the Dean. Buy it, don't buy it - it is up to you.

 

Alternative old K's kit (My personal choice as I have two running and one unbuilt), Falcon Brass (if you can find one and it is not an easy kit) or Blacksmith (again if you can find one and the Central heating tube boiler is a challenge).

 

Will I buy one? Yes. 

 

Why? Yes. The Locomotion one out of loyalty to Locomotion who repeatedly provide one of the best days out ever.....and it's free to get in!

 

So there is a line of rivets on the splasher. 5 mins with a knife/file/emery board - problem (if there every was one) solved.

 

Cab - if it bothers that much, make a new one out of plasticard/modified Airfix Truro, from the numerous published plans. An hour if that.

 

I have still not worked out what the firebox issue is from what I saw at Warley, but I have not put it against a plan (as no one else has)

 

PLUS POINT - the only 2000 gallons tender out of the box available - alternative £40+ brass kit or cut up an Airfix Truro.

 

Seriously chap and chapesses. It's just a model.

 

Mine will need crew, lamps, real coal, mucking up a bit, so a little more time personalising is not an issue.

 

Just think what we used to have to do to a Triang Hall to make it reasonable - serious reality check!

 

I'll have one to keep Shildon going. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Edwardian]

I keep reading the Winges moans critical concerns regarding the Dean. Buy it, don't buy it - it is up to you.

 

Alternative old K's kit (My personal choice as I have two running and one unbuilt), Falcon Brass (if you can find one and it is not an easy kit) or Blacksmith (again if you can find one and the Central heating tube boiler is a challenge).

 

Will I buy one? Yes. 

 

Why? Yes. The Locomotion one out of loyalty to Locomotion who repeatedly provide one of the best days out ever.....and it's free to get in!

 

So there is a line of rivets on the splasher. 5 mins with a knife/file/emery board - problem (if there every was one) solved.

 

Cab - if it bothers that much, make a new one out of plasticard/modified Airfix Truro, from the numerous published plans. An hour if that.

 

I have still not worked out what the firebox issue is from what I saw at Warley, but I have not put it against a plan (as no one else has)

 

PLUS POINT - the only 2000 gallons tender out of the box available - alternative £40+ brass kit or cut up an Airfix Truro.

 

Seriously chap and chapesses. It's just a model.

 

Mine will need crew, lamps, real coal, mucking up a bit, so a little more time personalising is not an issue.

 

Just think what we used to have to do to a Triang Hall to make it reasonable - serious reality check!

 

I'll have one to keep Shildon going. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Very noble, Mike, but I cannot justify the hard-earned on a model that could so easily have been right, but isn't.

 

Rather than your suggested surgery; replacing the body wholesale with a Mainline one would be even quicker! 

 

The added advantage is that it would still fit in the presentation box and you could write your own certificate testifying to its uniqueness!   Real collector's' item!

 

Don't buy it would be my choice, and believe me, it gives me absolutely no pleasure to say that.

[Ian Hargrave]

I keep reading the Winges moans critical concerns regarding the Dean. Buy it, don't buy it - it is up to you.

 

Alternative old K's kit (My personal choice as I have two running and one unbuilt), Falcon Brass (if you can find one and it is not an easy kit) or Blacksmith (again if you can find one and the Central heating tube boiler is a challenge).

 

Will I buy one? Yes. 

 

Why? Yes. The Locomotion one out of loyalty to Locomotion who repeatedly provide one of the best days out ever.....and it's free to get in!

 

So there is a line of rivets on the splasher. 5 mins with a knife/file/emery board - problem (if there every was one) solved.

 

Cab - if it bothers that much, make a new one out of plasticard/modified Airfix Truro, from the numerous published plans. An hour if that.

 

I have still not worked out what the firebox issue is from what I saw at Warley, but I have not put it against a plan (as no one else has)

 

PLUS POINT - the only 2000 gallons tender out of the box available - alternative £40+ brass kit or cut up an Airfix Truro.

 

Seriously chap and chapesses. It's just a model.

 

Mine will need crew, lamps, real coal, mucking up a bit, so a little more time personalising is not an issue.

 

Just think what we used to have to do to a Triang Hall to make it reasonable - serious reality check!

 

I'll have one to keep Shildon going. 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Exactly so.Those who have issues with this do perhaps not realise that this is no big retailer on the lines of Hattons or Rails but a very small  retailer run by the indomitable Sandra and a small team .That they have achieved what they have is thanks to imaginative ,bold decision making ....Brian take a bow...and damned hard work.This is for the support of the NRM.

 

Some of you have posted here eloquently and I'm sure with the noblest of intentions but may I remind you that the road to a certain destination is paved with suchlike. Constructive criticism is fine as long as it is measured and appropriately expressed at the correct time and place. Ponder that if you will and also be well aware that some posts on this thread have indeed caused upset and offence .That is hard to bear when you are doing your best,is it not ?

 

Some of you have had your day in the sun.Can we now move on please and await the arrival of the glossy Dean Goods in its box ?

[MikeParkin65]

Not my era or interest so wouldn't be in the market for one at all but that green is so obviously wrong. Even Hornby green 'corrects' itself under gloss varnish - Locomotion need only to compare to their own 6000 and 60103 that were displayed in the same cabinet at Warley.

[Edwardian]

And so it begins ...

 

Well, I'm not going to be the next victim of the don't rock the boat fraternity.

 

This is a new one on me - "buy an inaccurate model because it's for charity", but it's your money!

 

It is out of support for Locomotion's reputation that I have these concerns!  To characterise that as basking in the sun is an odd way to put it! 

 

Unbelievable!

[Quarryscapes]

  I am probably going to have to write off the loco body as irredeemable (at least compared with working up the Mainline body if I want a B4). 

 

Not necessarily, the boiler is obviously separate from splashers and cab making it eminently more suited to a round top conversion than the mainline one piece job, and the narrow cab top would support that too. 

 

Exactly so.Those who have issues with this do perhaps not realise that this is no big retailer on the lines of Hattons or Rails but a very small  retailer run by the indomitable Sandra and a small team .That they have achieved what they have is thanks to imaginative ,bold decision making ....Brian take a bow...and damned hard work.This is for the support of the NRM.

 

 

Locomotion may be tiny, but Oxford Rail isn't, and it's they who are responsible for the cock ups, not locomotion. 

[Edwardian]

Not necessarily, the boiler is obviously separate from splashers and cab making it eminently more suited to a round top conversion than the mainline one piece job, and the narrow cab top would support that too. 

 

 

Locomotion may be tiny, but Oxford Rail isn't, and it's they who are responsible for the cock ups, not locomotion. 

 

Interesting - use the boiler for a round top S4 boiler conversion?

 

Thanks

[Dunsignalling]

 

Locomotion may be tiny, but Oxford Rail isn't, and it's they who are responsible for the cock ups, not locomotion. 

But if they are commissioning something, they share the responsibility for the outcome.

 

John

[Coach bogie]

And so it begins ...

 

 

This is a new one on me - "buy an inaccurate model because it's for charity", but it's your money!

 

 

They are all inaccurate..... they are scaled to 4'foot 1 1/2 inch gauge.

 

Believable!

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Quarryscapes]

But if they are commissioning something, they share the responsibility for the outcome.

 

John

 

I hear you, but the errors inaccuracies etc are as applicable to the non locomotion model, all locomotion have done is put a slightly altered livery on it so far.

 

On a lighthearted note they could bring the price down by requesting no motor or gearbox in it as 2516 is static! 

Edited November 28, 2016 by Quarryscapes

[Edwardian]

They are all inaccurate..... they are scaled to 4'foot 1 1/2 inch gauge.

 

Believable!

 

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

So, just because the gauge is underscale all other inaccuracies are fine?

 

Unless that is your point, I suggest we are getting dangerously close to point scoring and will quarrel unnecessarily.

 

The reason there are so many critical posts is because people (not just me) keep spotting inaccuracies and there are a great many of them.  That is not our fault! 

 

Generally I try to be as positive as possible about RTR releases; I have found that uniquely difficult with regard to this release.

 

Don't shoot the messengers!  

[Ian Hargrave]

And so it begins ...

 

Well, I'm not going to be the next victim of the don't rock the boat fraternity.

 

This is a new one on me - "buy an inaccurate model because it's for charity", but it's your money!

 

It is out of support for Locomotion's reputation that I have these concerns!  To characterise that as basking in the sun is an odd way to put it! 

 

Unbelievable!

 

I assure you that what I post is correct. It has indeed caused offence.Whether or not you choose to believe what I post is entirely up to you . If you ...as you say you do..post here "out of support for Locomotion's reputation" then a better course of action would surely to contact them yourself with your concerns.You are in a position to do this,I think. The word "charity" is your choice and not mine.Indeed my money is my own. Enjoy playing the victim but please don't get seasick.

[Mod4]

Please lets not get personal, my capacity for happiness, you could fit into a matchbox without taking out the matches first...

 

At the end of the day anyone commissioning a model from any manufacturer makes a commercial decision to go ahead with such a commission based on known compromises, any or no tooling changes / costs and their knowledge of their own overall potential market and how they will respond to such a model, even if some people might be put off by the compromises being made. 

[Coppercap]

They are all inaccurate..... they are scaled to 4'foot 1 1/2 inch gauge.

 

Why not go even further, and point out that the models aren't even made from similar materials to the original locomotive?

 

So what is the true definition of 'scale model'? Is it an accurate miniaturisation of the real thing in materials and construction, or something that merely 'looks' like the original, irrespective of what it's made from and how it is assembled?

[Edwardian]

Enjoy playing the victim but please don't get seasick.

 

Well, I think this has just become silly.  I resent the attempt to personalise coverage of issues concerning the demonstrable flaws of a model.  

 

No one set out to offend (except perhaps you and Mike just now), and offence caused is always to be regretted, but mistakes have been made with this model and  I am uncomfortable with the idea that these should not be identified for fear of causing offence.  

 

We will not see another RTR Dean Goods for a generation, so we bear the consequences of a product that is not up to scratch.   I would much rather Locomotion and Oxford took the responsibility for getting it right, it is, after all, one's prototype and the other's model.

 

Seeking to pass blame upon the consumer for exhibiting discernment seems rather perverse and a misguided form of loyalty to both museum and manufacturer.

 

Pay your money and take your choice, but don't abuse people while you're about it.

 

I have repeatedly said that I would like both Oxford and Locomotion to succeed.  I am sincere in that.  I cannot say more.

 

I have no wish to fall out with any of you, or to provide any of you with a focus for discontent.  As I have clearly failed to cool rising temperatures, I will seek to withdraw with what dignity I may, leaving others to wrestle with the temptation of getting in the last word.

 

Edwardian has left the building!

Edited November 28, 2016 by Edwardian

[Coach bogie]

 

 

Seeking to pass blame upon the consumer for exhibiting discernment seems rather perverse and a misguided form of loyalty to both museum and manufacturer.

 

 

No one expects that, but OO modelling is a compromise and 100% accuracy should not be expected at these price levels.

 

 

If such high level of accuracy will be the only level accepted, then you may have to dig much deeper into your pockets.

 

Black label accuracy for around £100 is an unrealistic expectation.

 

As a reality check I met a friend at Warley who has just taken delivery of a 4mm Jubilee.Highly accurate with the only obvious compromise being gauge. The invoice was for a four figure sum and my friend supplied the components!

 

Mike Wiltshire

[sp1]

No one expects that, but OO modelling is a compromise and 100% accuracy should not be expected at these price levels.

 

 

If such high level of accuracy will be the only level accepted, then you may have to dig much deeper into your pockets.

 

Black label accuracy for around £100 is an unrealistic expectation.

 

As a reality check I met a friend at Warley who has just taken delivery of a 4mm Jubilee.Highly accurate with the only obvious compromise being gauge. The invoice was for a four figure sum and my friend supplied the components!

 

Mike Wiltshire

Well said!

It looks like a Dean Goods to me, and the price is probably cheaper in real terms than what we were paying just a few decades ago for 'models' with moulded handrails, wrong shaped/ length boilers, ride height wrong to allow for a 'one size fits all' chassis, huge flanges, plastic wheels on the tender etc etc.

So some of the details are wrong?.....build a kit - but that'll cost a bit more than this, and then you still have to paint and line it, which if you can't do it yourself will probably cost about three times as much in itself than Oxfords model.