National Collection in Miniature Dean Goods Class No 2516

[locoholic]

I wonder if Hornby are reading all this and quietly working on a loco drive chassis for the old Mainline Dean Goods? I would, if I was in their place...

[bacon butty]

Spot on there Mike,

 

Totally agree with you.

 

Stuart

[Edwardian]

I wonder if Hornby are reading all this and quietly working on a loco drive chassis for the old Mainline Dean Goods? I would, if I was in their place...

 

Do you know, that thought had crossed my mind as well.  Shame on me. There is a precedent, too.  Hornby put a loco-drive in the 4-4-0 County for the Railroad version (and a very sound and value for money model this makes as the basis of a DIY upgrade).  I believe they may have done it with some Midland 4-4-0 Compound-type-thing as well, but plead ignorance here.

 

Anyway, I am focussing all my positive thoughts towards the Locomotion-Oxford venture in the hope that the commercially possible changes will suffice to render it a basically accurate representation.

 

I, too, would find an inter-war version more appealing than an 'as preserved' model, so that is further good news. 

 

So far as I understand, 2516 was not superheated until October 1935. 

 

I note the top feed present in the picture in the STEAM archive (http://www.steampicturelibrary.com/dean-goods-no-2516/print/4079975.html).

 

However, I am certainly not about to second guess those good folk at the NRM.

 

Best of luck to all concerned for a successful conclusion to this collaboration.  

Edited December 1, 2016 by Edwardian

[melmerby]

I wonder if Hornby are reading all this and quietly working on a loco drive chassis for the old Mainline Dean Goods? I would, if I was in their place...

It would produce a half decent model at a much lower price, especially if they attach a proper tender to it, rather than a de-gutsed tender drive one.

Airfix did rather well when they designed it all those years ago. (36 years ago!)

It was in the Airfix 1980 catalogue but released by Mainline after they took over the Airfix range.

 

Keith

Edited December 2, 2016 by melmerby

[The Stationmaster]

I wonder if Hornby are reading all this and quietly working on a loco drive chassis for the old Mainline Dean Goods? I would, if I was in their place...

 

I can't see Hornby doing that to be honest.  They would clearly recognise they would be spending money to put something into what would inevitably be a split market and they've been lumbered with several of those lately so I doubt - especially in present circumstances - that they would go round looking for another one.

[Ian Hargrave]

I can't see Hornby doing that to be honest.  They would clearly recognise they would be spending money to put something into what would inevitably be a split market and they've been lumbered with several of those lately so I doubt - especially in present circumstances - that they would go round looking for another one.

 

And of course for measurement/scanning etc.they surely would have to approach the NRM  for access ?

[melmerby]

And of course for measurement/scanning etc.they surely would have to approach the NRM  for access ?

Why?

They already have the model they just need a set of decent wheels under it (+ motor of course!)

 

Keith

[autocoach]

Why?

They already have the model they just need a set of decent wheels under it (+ motor of course!)

 

Keith

I doubt Hornby could find the old tooling from so many defunct Chinese manufacturers ago. And if they did find it, the tooling would not be compatible with current injection molding equipment and technology. And if someone did find the tooling and it is usable, the current Hornby probably doesn't own the rights to it.

[Ian Hargrave]

Why?

They already have the model they just need a set of decent wheels under it (+ motor of course!)

 

Keith

I really don't think they operate quite like that now.Unless of course they opt for a RailRoad version as they are in fact doing with the B17

[melmerby]

I really don't think they operate quite like that now.Unless of course they opt for a RailRoad version as they are in fact doing with the B17

What so different with the Dean Goods?

 

"Railroading" an old model with a new chassis is nothing new.

That's precisely what they could do and we would get a reasonable model at much less than a new tooled one.

County 4-4-0 anyone?

 

Keith

Edited December 3, 2016 by melmerby

[melmerby]

. And if someone did find the tooling and it is usable, the current Hornby probably doesn't own the rights to it.

Really?

 

Is the Hornby of 2016 a different entity to the Hornby of 2006? (when it was last being manufactured)

One would assume that once a production run has finished the tools would be put into safe storage for if/when they might be used again. (unless they are worn beyond economic repair)

 

Keith

Edited December 3, 2016 by melmerby

[autocoach]

Really?

 

Is the Hornby of 2016 a different entity to the Hornby of 2006? (when it was last being manufactured)

One would assume that once a production run has finished the tools would be put into safe storage for if/when they might be used again. (unless they are worn beyond economic repair)

 

Keith

Mainline and ultimately Hornby tooling was Sanda Kan. When Sanda Kan went bankrupt about 2010 the tooling was probably lost. Hornby if I remember did not own their tooling. There were long discussions of this some years ago. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74409-sanda-kan-locos-airfix-to-Hornby/.  Also remember that tooling becomes technically obsolete if it no longer can be used in modern injection machines. Even if it was saved by someone and could be found it may be useless. It might cost more to make the original tooling usable than to start over again from scratch.  The Chinese plastic model making industry has undergone rapid technical change in the last 5 years and there are no guarantees that models made 5 years ago can be reproduced from their original tooling without significant investment cost.  Given that a model made from the old tooling would have to compete with Oxford's model, Hornby would be unlikely to invest their scarce capital resources in resurrecting even part of the original Dean Goods dies. 

Edited December 4, 2016 by autocoach

[Quarryscapes]

Mainline and ultimately Hornby tooling was Sanda Kan. When Sanda Kan went bankrupt about 2010 the tooling was probably lost. Hornby if I remember did not own their tooling. There were long discussions of this some years ago. See http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/74409-sanda-kan-locos-airfix-to-Hornby/.  Also remember that tooling becomes technically obsolete if it no longer can be used in modern injection machines. Even if it was saved by someone and could be found it may be useless. It might cost more to make the original tooling usable than to start over again from scratch.  The Chinese plastic model making industry has undergone rapid technical change in the last 5 years and there are no guarantees that models made 5 years ago can be reproduced from their original tooling without significant investment cost.  Given that a model made from the old tooling would have to compete with Oxford's model, Hornby would be unlikely to invest their scarce capital resources in resurrecting even part of the original Dean Goods dies. 

 

Well they're doing a great job of keeping their 4F going which came from the same place as the Dean Goods, even in the face of competition from the much better Bachmann model. 

[melmerby]

Mainline and ultimately Hornby tooling was Sanda Kan. When Sanda Kan went bankrupt about 2010 the tooling was probably lost. Hornby if I remember did not own their tooling.

IIRC Mainline did not own most of the tooling they commissioned (Kader did), however Airfix did own their tooling. The non-Kader owned tools were sold on when General Mills pulled out of model railways.

This is why most items from the Mainline range ended up with Bachmann, the rest went elsewhere (including the Airfix commissioned Dean Goods), ending up with Dapol, then Hornby (after Dapol's fire)

When Sanda Kan went belly-up the tools just didn't disappear, Hornby moved several elsewhere.

 

Keith

 

EDIT (inc. some text above)

I believe Mainline also commissioned a second set of tools for some of their wagons which they retained ownership of, these went on the same trip as the ex-Airfix ones.

AFAIK There are both Bachmann and Hornby versions of some Mainline released wagons.

Edited December 4, 2016 by melmerby

[Ian Hargrave]

IIRC Mainline did not own most of the tooling they commissioned (Kader did), however Airfix did own their tooling. The non-Kader owned tools were sold on.

This is why most items from the Mainline range ended up with Bachmann, the rest went elsewhere (including the Airfix commissioned Dean Goods)

When Sanda Kan went belly-up the tools just didn't disappear, Hornby moved several elsewhere.

 

Keith

I do not believe we have any conclusive knowledge of what did happen to some of the tooling.By the law of averages,some undoubtedly did survive but some must have been lost or is now beyond use. The Clan for instance which is a sorely missed model is believed to be one of those ?

[250BOB]

I do not believe we have any conclusive knowledge of what did happen to some of the tooling.By the law of averages,some undoubtedly did survive but some must have been lost or is now beyond use. The Clan for instance which is a sorely missed model is believed to be one of those ?

I wondered why I hadn't seen many clans around for a good while, looks like I'm not going to either.......glad I bought one at the time while at Model Rail Scotland......it was a renamed one, Clan Cameron.

[Ian Hargrave]

I wondered why I hadn't seen many clans around for a good while, looks like I'm not going to either.......glad I bought one at the time while at Model Rail Scotland......it was a renamed one, Clan Cameron.

This is why they fetch insane prices on ebay.By one at a reasonable cost and it's like a Krugerrand.Sorry...off topic.

[Bernard Lamb]

Can I join the party?

This is not a model that interests me.

If it was a shade smaller and in German 1940s form it might.

However I have been reading the two threads for general amusement and enlightenment.

I had reason to look at the J H Russell locomotive book this afternoon so turned to he Dean Goods pages to try to follow the points raised in the topic.

There is a short piece about the preserved example and two photographs of the cab interior, one as at withdrawal and the other as preserved.

The details are quite different.

I have not seen any details of what the model will look like, but there do seem to be variations, hardly surprising given the long and complicated history of the class.

How representative the preserved example is I know not. What details the forthcoming model will have I know not.

I hope this will help any one who is interested in getting an accurate model.

Bernard

[Talltim]

On a nearly completely unrelated note I see that Tommie Tippee has found the moulds for a sippy cup they last made 10 years ago and have run off 500 for an autistic boy.

[Ian Hargrave]

Can I join the party?

This is not a model that interests me.

If it was a shade smaller and in German 1940s form it might.

However I have been reading the two threads for general amusement and enlightenment.

I had reason to look at the J H Russell locomotive book this afternoon so turned to he Dean Goods pages to try to follow the points raised in the topic.

There is a short piece about the preserved example and two photographs of the cab interior, one as at withdrawal and the other as preserved.

The details are quite different.

I have not seen any details of what the model will look like, but there do seem to be variations, hardly surprising given the long and complicated history of the class.

How representative the preserved example is I know not. What details the forthcoming model will have I know not.

I hope this will help any one who is interested in getting an accurate model.

Bernard

I am assuming that you mean those that went to France in 1940 with the BEF ?

[Bernard Lamb]

I am assuming that you mean those that went to France in 1940 with the BEF ?

They are the ones.

A couple of them went a bit further afield than France.

The Germans found them to be very useful machines.

Bernard

[Ian Hargrave]

They are the ones.

A couple of them went a bit further afield than France.

The Germans found them to be very useful machines.

Bernard

Given the former Reich's obsession with methodical recording,there should be some photographic evidence of this ?

[Bulwell Hall]

Given the former Reich's obsession with methodical recording,there should be some photographic evidence of this ?

 

Examples are reputed to have reached as far East as Dresden and possibly even Warsaw.

[bertiedog]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GWR_2301_Class

 

Details of the war service in both WW are shown on above reference.

[Welchester]

In Jeremy Clements 'William Dean: the Greatest of Them All' there are photographs of 2435 at Vienna.