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Gaugemaster DCC80 frog juicer


Butler Henderson
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P.s I have 6 of them and all of them do this but on the odd occasion they do change instantly and cause no power disruptions.

Dan

Is the frog still wired to the switch rails? I once spent a weekend fighting a layout that was fine (!) on DC but kept getting momentary shorts on DCC because the switch rails and additional microswitches were both doing the same thing but not necessarily at the same time.

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Hi yeah the wires between the switch rails and frogs have been cut on all points.

Thanks for the help though

Hi Dan,

 

Following on from that, are the switch rails wired to the stock rails (as in post 19) and the hinges clean...? If the contact isn't sufficiently reliable then the juicer won't detect a short and change polarity, and the loco stalls with all pickup wheels on rails of the same polarity.

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Hi Dan,

 

Following on from that, are the switch rails wired to the stock rails (as in post 19) and the hinges clean...? If the contact isn't sufficiently reliable then the juicer won't detect a short and change polarity, and the loco stalls with all pickup wheels on rails of the same polarity.

Hi 

i have just been and checked everything, anything that needed cleaned has been cleaned and the problem is still there. I was wondering would the distance from the place where the power is taken from the track make a difference.

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Hi 

i have just been and checked everything, anything that needed cleaned has been cleaned and the problem is still there. I was wondering would the distance from the place where the power is taken from the track make a difference.

If it's over a scale couple of miles, then yes. Otherwise I'd be bench testing a DCC80 on a spare but identical turnout with a short section of track on each end.

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  • 5 months later...

This makes the assumption that you ONLY EVER run trains which pick up power at the front and no where else - ie suggesting loco hauled services - not Push-Pull, Autotank working, DMUs and other units. Also if coaches behind the loco are picking up power for lighting, then they too may bridge the gap, reinstating power - therefore this 'isolated gap' methid fails to work UNLESS it is a complete train in length ... and not the coupe of inches available on a moel layout 8-(      Also, if it did work as you intend, a train stopping dead due to lack of power is as bad as an analogue layout train moving onto an unpoewered section ... not good operationally, and precisely one of the reasons for going to dcc with all sectins live at all times 8-)

So if I am interpreting this right, you unable to for example shunt stock with stock to the front?

 

Also , I all my points are electro frog , correctly insulated extra (Dcc) I am not having any problems with standard points only the double slip, a quick fix is to install auto frogs just on the double slip.

 

Which would be the blue green frog sections, as the double slip is connected to a point would I need to attach dcc80 where red is indicated. I would rather not fit autofrogs to all points because I hate working under the layout

post-30236-0-45430200-1516728532_thumb.jpeg

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The Fat Controller quoted my post form a long time ago in this thread - so it may have been read out of context - I clarify my concerns at the end.....>>>

So if I am interpreting this right, you unable to for example shunt stock with stock to the front?

Also , I all my points are electro frog , correctly insulated extra (Dcc) I am not having any problems with standard points only the double slip, a quick fix is to install auto frogs just on the double slip.

Which would be the blue green frog sections, as the double slip is connected to a point would I need to attach dcc80 where red is indicated. I would rather not fit autofrogs to all points because I hate working under the layout

Phil: CLARIFICATION of the LIMITATIONS in RELYING ON (short length) INSULATED GAPS to stop trains over-running points set 'incorrectly' - doesn't matter whether they are in the front, back, fiddle yard or shunting or mainline .... it is the same electrical principal which is of concern in EVERY case.....

 

1/ I believe in the principal of Auto-Frog - because, contrary to many peoples opinions, NOT ALL route settings even over a simple diamond crossing may be be immediately or remotely or simply associated with adjacent points which some suggest can always provide the required frog switching -

 

2/ As lighting, sound and 'stay-alive' power systems spread - the very idea of relying on switchable isolated sections for point protection is contrary to the very philosophy of dcc.   [ASIDE:This is also why I use Optical detection of trains - independent of track power or locos - it detects ALL stock ]

 

THEREFORE it is better, in principle, to ENSURE that the frog-polarity (phase: - polarity is a BAD term for an ac signal like dcc !!) is ALWAYS correct or automatically corrected whenever (metal) wheels are passing over it - BECAUSE with a dcc layout - ALL TRAINS in that (SUB_district) WILL be stopped by any short circuit occurring:

 

THE AFFECTED REGION is minimised by dividing the layout into PROTECTED [sub-] districts

                            [ these are NOT likely to be the same choices as sections used in cab control

- such as by the use of the PSX intelligent Circuit Breaker (of which I use a lot )... which also limits the maximum possible current which may be drawn in the protected section - allowing a higher loop-resistance than if the full short-circuit current from larger controllers were able to flow  (as checked by the 'coin test')

 

NOW FOR THE LENGTH ISSUE - WHY does it need to be a WHOLE TRAIN LENGTH to GUARANTEE effectiveness - and if not done this way, the wrong assumption that adequate protection is in place may result in more operator errors due to the inconsistency in behavior !!

 

Some people assume that the only relevant part of a loco-hauled train is the FRONT - where the loco is traditionally pulling the loco/train combination.

However; metal wheels on ANY VEHICLE (just a single WHEEL on ONE RAIL is all that it takes) in the remainder of the train WILL BRIDGE a gap, thus reconnecting power to the loco up front which has passed on into an insulated section used for point protection - the loco will therefore try to restart or perhaps misread data.   With more metal axles in the train, this will occur repeatedly.     

 

OPTICAL detection of a train approaching a point /junction which can be used to pre-set a frog polarity/phase AVOIDS this problem .. as repeated triggering simply reinforces the new setting state   ( works on either/both branches from the point  - and can similarly be used on an  individual diamond crossing as pairs either side on each of the 2 bi-directional routes over it.)

 

Therefore to rely on the 'analogue sectional block  control method' - which is contrary to principles of dcc use - the section length to isolate the train needs to be LONGER than the MAXIMUM train length.  

[The same applies where such sections are used for 'braking', or dcc <> dc/analogue or  dcc<> another digital system - so that at the time the changeover is applied, the train is TOTALLY within the ISOLATED / SWITCHABLE section => OTHERWISE a short between systems would occur  with the possibility of much smoke.]

 

My plea is to consider other methods of stopping a train - more realistically - or accept that there is driver responsibility to not overrun or a board of enquiry into the crash may result 8-)  with dcc; with sound, lighting, inertia and stay-alive components an increasing  possibility in each train, the effects are best if power is maintained throughout .,... aided by the Auto-Frog,  (and points which are not 'locked' against a train over running - whether sprung or not.)

 

THE OTHER WAY ROUND:  Even if only plastic wheels are used in the remainder of the train - it may have  a banker loco,  or be a push-pull service (even the GWR had them - so its not just a modern idea )   ... and in model form, an HST set may be powered only at one end ... it may not be known which -   and so if any of these are relying on the power-pickup only being in the front 300mm of the train, with a 300mm separation from the point to the isolation, five or six coaches may have continued on through the point before the train becomes unpowered (assuming no stay-alive system onboard)

 

Note: there are some continental models of UNIT trains which AUTOMATICALLY SWITCH where they collect power from to the Front Coach in each direction - so that shorted sections can be used more often with simple automation. I klnow of NO UK models which do this.

 

I do have some Gaugemaster Auto-Frogs awaiting fitting to resolve the problems of a single Peco Diamond Crossing on my 00 layout and certain Hornby  wheelsets - the remainder being Rocoline track with better insulation gaps designed in !  

 

WHERE A POINT SETTING CAN be a CONTROLLING FACTOR:

HOWEVER, I DO HAVE in use, their  DPDT relay switches -  on my double/triple level Scandinavian layout -  which gives me free access to and from my Helix in either direction on each of the 3 levels ...  The Middle-Level and Helix are the 'fixed phase' directly from the Controller (with a PSX for intelligent auto protection), and the  UPPER and LOWER levels are then EACH FED through their own DPDT relay which is controlled in parallel with the 2 points on each of the upper and lower levels which provide access to/from the Helix  - again with auto-resetting PSX breakers in the feeds to each of the upper and lower levels -  although not offering the same degree of protection as the auto-frog - the PSX will keep trying to reset the power every 2 seconds, and only the 1 level will be stopped until the point is changed.  --- and Optical auto detection would allow that to be preset too !! - avoiding the problem.

 

(I also now have, awaiting installation, both the Massoth (for G Scale) and LDT Auto Reversers with PRE DETECTION to avoid the short circuit current - the LDTs were originally going to be installed in the Skandi layout to provide auto-phase correction as a train used the helix - but the 'problem' was originally avoided with a 'phased' track installation approach ....by not allowing bi-directional access at each level, the upper and lower layouts never needed to change phase at all.   Then, when we decided to reinstate the extra 2 points to allow our 3.5m Iron Ore train to run continuously between upper and lower levels, we separated the Mid-Level / Helix from the other levels, and opted for the point-controlled phase selection, which is working well.  The LDTs will therefore be cascaded to the 00 loft layout. (They have been tested as working well) [Roco points include inbuilt live-frog switching]

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  • 7 months later...

: I have recently purchased DCC80 autofrog 3 pack, my question is , 'why can you not connect multiple frog input wires to one frog polarity switch on the basis only one turnout is operated at a time. ' the DCC bus remains common to all .

Err , cause you could have multiple engines moving requiring specific frog polarities at different points

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  • RMweb Gold

: I have recently purchased DCC80 autofrog 3 pack, my question is , 'why can you not connect multiple frog input wires to one frog polarity switch on the basis only one turnout is operated at a time. ' the DCC bus remains common to all .

At the price of the DCC80, is this really an issue?

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  • 8 months later...
On 25/11/2016 at 18:16, Oldddudders said:

 

I have been wondering the same thing. Given their existing tie-ups, I assume these are from DCC Concepts think-tank. 

 

You assume wrong! The DCC80 was hatched and developed at Ford.

 

11 minutes ago, JZ said:

With only 3 wires, is this unsuitable for turntables?

 

Yes, totally. You need a full auto reverse module

Edited by JohnDMJ
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  • 6 months later...
On 08/06/2019 at 16:37, JohnDMJ said:

 

You assume wrong! The DCC80 was hatched and developed at Ford.

 

 

Yes, totally. You need a full auto reverse module

Not quite rue. You fit two juicers, one to each rail of the turntable.

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I have a number of these units on my layout and they work just fine. However, I have noticed one problem with older locos, in particular a Lima DMU. When it gets to the frog whose polarity needs changing by the DCC80, it stops momentarily and then restarts. Once the polarity has changed it will go over the points perfectly. I guess the DCC80 is not quite quick enough to cope with the less than perfect pick up arrangement on the DMU.

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  • RMweb Gold

I have installed a number of these with Peco points on my HOm layout, and have had absolute reliability. My Digitrax DCS100 seems happy for the DCC80 to switch first, despite it being a relay operated device, rather than solid-state. 

 

At the price, I would have to recommend these as good value. 

 

 

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There seem to be a number of comments about the switching being erratic. It's important to note that these units are powered from the DCC bus and as such are consuming power. The more DCC80s fitted the more power they will consume. I don't know what the power consumption per unit is but the Tam Valley Depot Hexjuicer requires 1.7 amps  minimum per board (6 points) to operate reliably. This would mean that some of the entry level DCC controller power supplies might struggle to have enough power for multiple juicers and loco decoders at the same time - just a thought.

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15 minutes ago, Oldddudders said:

I have installed a number of these with Peco points on my HOm layout, and have had absolute reliability. My Digitrax DCS100 seems happy for the DCC80 to switch first, despite it being a relay operated device, rather than solid-state. 

 

At the price, I would have to recommend these as good value. 

 

 

I'm sure I read somewhere that the DCC80 is fitted with a solid state relay. If that's the case it should as fast any any solid state device in operation. The two I fitted to a Peco three way point some time ago have been faultless in operation.

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1 hour ago, RexAshton said:

t the Tam Valley Depot Hexjuicer requires 1.7 amps  minimum per board (6 points) to operate reliably. 

 

I doubt it very much.

 

I think you are confusing power consumption of the device (which will be very little) with the trip level at which it operates to reverse the polarity.

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