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Hornby Class 87 - Confirmed Newly Tooled Version for 2017 !


ThaneofFife
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Strictly speaking 006 only ran in that battleship grey livery in 1984, and by 1985 had been repainted into the Mk1 ICEx livery, with black BR logo on the yellow cab side, and with the nameplate in the original position bisecting the white band.  009, City of Birmingham, on the other hand is shown in the Mk2 ICex livery with the relocated nameplate and BR logo in white on the grey band, which it appears to have gained after fitting with RCH cables for push pull working - I've been looking at photos of the loco online and it seems it was painted quite early into Mk1 ICex livery with black BR logo on the yellow cab side, carrying the livery from late 1984-early 1985 but having had the nameplate relocated further up the bodyside onto the grey band, albeit still mounted centrally.  However, by 1987 when it was photographed with RCH cables on the front, it was in the "standard" ICex scheme with the repositioned logo and nameplate as shown on the Hornby render.  Which suggests that the livery change took place after fitting the RCH cables as the latest photo of it sans RCH cables I can find is February 1986.  So 006 and 009 as proposed by Hornby can't strictly run together.  Depends however how anal you are about these things of course.

Just in case you think I've OCD about Class 87s, I only know this because I was quite pleased to see 009 announced as a release as I thought it would fit my attempts to have "Midland" themed locos on Wednesford and would be bob on for the 1986 timetable.  Unfortunately, it seems the loco might not have been on the mainline in the summer of '86 being in the works for repaint and cabling, based on admittedly not always reliable "Flickr" evidence.  So, it's either a rename/renumber for me, or I "Rule 1" it and get a bit livery fluid, given it is only a few months out.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Had one of those moments today, when looking for something completely different, stumbled across a bit of information of great interest to my chosen period and area of interest.

 

Nice picture of 87 015 from June 1974, shown with mild weathering on the white roof.

 

Class 87 Roof

 

Deborah Irwin website

 

Useful information, if like me you are currently backdating models of Hornby's 87 035 to 'as built' condition for the WCML Electrification north of Weaver Junction circa 1974. 

 

Regards

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  • 4 weeks later...

At the risk of being branded a lazy so-and-so for not looking back through the 74 pages of this thread.....

 

I am about to activate my fleet of the BR blue 87s, and I would appreciate guidance as to what decoders I can use. I believe space is limited within the model.

 

Thank you.

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2 hours ago, Mike at C&M said:

At the risk of being branded a lazy so-and-so for not looking back through the 74 pages of this thread.....

 

I am about to activate my fleet of the BR blue 87s, and I would appreciate guidance as to what decoders I can use. I believe space is limited within the model.

 

Thank you.

I used a Hatton’s decoder. It’s too big to fit into the recess provided for decoders (the reason for many of the 74 pages) but I was able to tuck it in under the PCB.

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OK now i have seen some clean photos of 87006 it does seem that the cab doors were indeed black.

 

question that not so clear is whether the door frame itself was also black - photos i have seen are difficult to interpret on this due to angles and light etc and I am wondering whether the frame was the same dark grey as the bodysides or maybe the grey only covered the door step area not the frame........any takers?

 

I hope Hornby model the correct cab front equipment on this as we have no images yet.....

 

Orange cant rail stripe  does not run around the cabs.....

Edited by ThaneofFife
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I must confess to being a bit mystified by this black doors question on 87006. Like many I first saw this livery in the Rail Enthusiast centre spread in the July 84 issue. The doors, body sides and window frames all appear to be the same dark grey colour and it remained like that for the next few months at least.

 

Carlisle

 

87006 at Euston 08.09.1984

 

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well on that evidence i thought I would check to see if maybe just maybe the Willesden lads had deliberately opted to painted the cab doors black just on one side.   I dont have permission yet to share one particular picture with the loco sat  on the blocks at Manchester Piccadilly in gleaming condition clearly with black cab doors so this is a bt of journey of fact finding......does the slightest bit of weathering really disguise the black that well?  very tricky.......surely they didnt get black at first then get repainted dark grey?..........i dug out an old book with full colour images last night and unfortunately it only really shows the cab front not the sides.

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Have just removed the tape over my pantograph of my 87 (purchased last year)

one of the 'clips' that holds the arm to the frame is broken (cracked and therefore not clipped onto the spigot). What is the situation on spares? Peters Spares don't have any. Will I have to buy from Hornby? Or will they supply for free?

Stupidly fragile part; given I had not previously touched it, it must have left the factory like that.

 

Pointers appreciated. I will presume it is not a case of 'we don't have spares, buy a new loco' because that would be unacceptable for a £170 product that was faulty at time of purchase (and no I can't return, it took three exchanges to get a body shell that did not have rubs marks on the paintwork under the cab!).

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10 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Have just removed the tape over my pantograph of my 87 (purchased last year)

one of the 'clips' that holds the arm to the frame is broken (cracked and therefore not clipped onto the spigot). What is the situation on spares? Peters Spares don't have any. Will I have to buy from Hornby? Or will they supply for free?

Stupidly fragile part; given I had not previously touched it, it must have left the factory like that.

 

Pointers appreciated. I will presume it is not a case of 'we don't have spares, buy a new loco' because that would be unacceptable for a £170 product that was faulty at time of purchase (and no I can't return, it took three exchanges to get a body shell that did not have rubs marks on the paintwork under the cab!).


We had emailed Hornby recently regarding spares for the pantograph. They had just run out of stock a week or two prior to our email. But we were told that spares will be available again when the next batch comes in. They are free as far as we know.  But that could change.

We also emailed Simon Kohler and hopefully convinced him to update the Class 87 with sprung pantographs like the Class 91 and to sell the Class 87 pantographs and spares/use it with the Class 90 and Class 92.

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53 minutes ago, MGR Hooper! said:


We had emailed Hornby recently regarding spares for the pantograph. They had just run out of stock a week or two prior to our email. But we were told that spares will be available again when the next batch comes in. They are free as far as we know.  But that could change.

We also emailed Simon Kohler and hopefully convinced him to update the Class 87 with sprung pantographs like the Class 91 and to sell the Class 87 pantographs and spares/use it with the Class 90 and Class 92.

 

Thanks for this info. I have emailed Hornby, but will be happy to wait until the next batch in October. Don't have OHL and Royal Scot is a display model so looks fine with Pan down in the mean time.

 

Would agree with a 91-esque pan being available for the 87, although I presume the base would have to be re-engineered as it was mentioned on the 91 thread that the base is narrower than the 87. I guess Class 90 and 92 would be a stretech for a higher-quality pantograph as they are technically railroad (or at least the 90 is!)

 

Just oogling the 87 now. It really IS an impressive model.

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On 02/03/2021 at 11:08, MGR Hooper! said:


We had emailed Hornby recently regarding spares for the pantograph. They had just run out of stock a week or two prior to our email. But we were told that spares will be available again when the next batch comes in. They are free as far as we know.  But that could change.

We also emailed Simon Kohler and hopefully convinced him to update the Class 87 with sprung pantographs like the Class 91 and to sell the Class 87 pantographs and spares/use it with the Class 90 and Class 92.

 

I know of a few people who have emailed Simon or spoken to him at shows previously about this and it gets the nod .... but then ignored .........The 87 Pantograph is awful snd very plastic and prone to snapping ..... lets hope the ones on the 91 are better .......

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37 minutes ago, cambo74 said:

 

I know of a few people who have emailed Simon or spoken to him at shows previously about this and it gets the nod .... but then ignored .........The 87 Pantograph is awful snd very plastic and prone to snapping ..... lets hope the ones on the 91 are better .......

It will be better but not by much, the only bit of proper diecast on it is the upper arm and the part where the contact shoe sits (or whatever it's called) . The rest of it is plastic.

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On 02/03/2021 at 12:06, G-BOAF said:

 

Would agree with a 91-esque pan being available for the 87, although I presume the base would have to be re-engineered as it was mentioned on the 91 thread that the base is narrower than the 87. I guess Class 90 and 92 would be a stretech for a higher-quality pantograph as they are technically railroad (or at least the 90 is!)

 

 

The 91's pan should have a narrower base. The loco was designed with a tilting tumblehome so the roof is narrower.

 

I can understand why the 87 pan is so flimsy. Hornby took a choice between making it work or making it look good. They made a working one before & this was very overscale. I am sure they could have made a better attempt but they chose to make one which looks good (& in photos I cannot deny that it does look good).

Some have commented that the pan on Bachmann's 90 looks poor, but the BW pan is a delicate prototype & this is the compromise they took by getting it to work.

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5 hours ago, cambo74 said:

 

I know of a few people who have emailed Simon or spoken to him at shows previously about this and it gets the nod, but then ignored. The 87 Pantograph is awful and very plastic and prone to snapping. Lets hope the ones on the 91 are better
 


That's a pity. Let's just hope that this time round he's more open to the idea. We've had lengthy chats with him with some logical points that requires little or no investment from Hornby but the outcome is better models. However in our experience he's been quick to take on board our suggestions. So fingers crossed... At the end of the day he doesn't make every decision for Hornby alone, whilst he might agree with what we say, he can't necessarily make it happen every time.

We've told him the following:-

  • Updating the Class 87 to have the same sprung loaded pantograph as the Class 91 would meant that Hornby super-detailed electric have a standard i.e. the Class 71 has a sprung diamond pantograph, the Class 91 would have a sprung BW-HS pantograph and the Class 87 will have not just a sprung cross-arm pantograph but also a sprung BW-HS pantograph thus matching the Class 91. I hope he values a standard like this as much as we do for our kits.
  • We've also told him that the current poseable BW-HS pantograph can be supplied as an optional extra with their Hornby Railroad electrics like the Class 86, Class 90 and Class 92. This can be left to the customer to fit if they so wish to swap out the chunky metal ones for something a lot more accurate.
  • Lastly we told him about how popular our 3D printed BW-HS pantograph is.... With all it's limitations like only being able to be made in the raised or lowered position or how delicate it is because it is 3D printed, it still remains to be a popular kit. Hopefully he sees this and takes the opportunity to make it a standard spare part.

 

As for the Class 91 pantograph, it seems like they still wanted to achieve the realism and accuracy, therefore the lower arm is plastic as I am assuming it clips onto the base the same way the Class 87's BW-HS pantograph clips on i.e. looking more accurate. The rest of the pantograph seems to be metal. Only time will tell.

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3 hours ago, Pete the Elaner said:

 

Some have commented that the pan on Bachmann's 90 looks poor, but the BW pan is a delicate prototype & this is the compromise they took by getting it to work.
 


I'd agree, the Bachmann Class 90 is good, but the pantograph and a few other niggles are a bit of a let down. But not bad enough to prevent me from getting one when it comes out in a livery I fancy. So far the Class 90 seems to be ignored by Bachmann. Next quarter perhaps?

@Squirrel Rail seems to have a lot of good pics of the Bachmann Class 90, some posted today/yesterday, and it's quite clear that the BW-HS pantograph is a bit poor...

Edited by MGR Hooper!
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6 hours ago, cambo74 said:

 

I know of a few people who have emailed Simon or spoken to him at shows previously about this and it gets the nod .... but then ignored .........The 87 Pantograph is awful snd very plastic and prone to snapping ..... lets hope the ones on the 91 are better .......

 

I'm not sure how much influence on that sort of thing Simon has. Once Simon has decided a model is to be produced, it will be up to the design team to draw up the relevant specs, which will no doubt include cost and durability in the criteria for its design. Simon may well advise based on feedback he has received, but I doubt he would in his role be the final arbiter.

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1 hour ago, brushman47544 said:

 

I'm not sure how much influence on that sort of thing Simon has. Once Simon has decided a model is to be produced, it will be up to the design team to draw up the relevant specs, which will no doubt include cost and durability in the criteria for its design. Simon may well advise based on feedback he has received, but I doubt he would in his role be the final arbiter.


I always thought of Simon to be a marketing man, and a very good one for Hornby. He can “spin” it, however he wants.
 

But marketing, sales, r &d, engineering, procurement etc etc are all very different departmental functions.

 

 

Edited by adb968008
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Having done quite a bit of searching around looking at various images I have written to Simon Kohler with some observations about the artwork on 87 006.   I'm no expert but hopefully what I have provided for him and the team will assist in getting a more accurate model on the shelves come November.

 

If people are interested;  the main points raised are the positioning of the nameplate, the positioning of the large BR double arrow logo,  the dampers should be grey not blue and the orange overhead warning stripe only runs along the main bodyside.

 

I do know that the final artwork has not yet been signed off so there is time for tweaks as required.

 

 

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  • 2 months later...

It's obviously a bit late now as I own 3 class 87s: they're really good to my eyes apart from the curved shape at the cab front - it really bugs me and It spoils the authentic look of the loco. Is it just me, or does anyone else notice this.

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On 22/02/2021 at 21:14, BR(S) said:

Best picture I've come across of 87006 due to the light and it can be zoomed in on.  Struggling to find images with black doors.

 

49338784962_d9f780c020_c.jpgCarlisle by Jonathan Hazan, on Flickr

 

I don't remember the cab doors being black either. Here's another photo taken a bit later, in October 1984, in which it looks like the cab including the door has been repainted but not the whole loco, so the colour looks darker than the bodysides.

http://27635310550_e2a62a52f2_h.jpg87006 85023 London Euston by David Chamberlain, on Flickr

 

This one below is taken about the same date and, whilst it looks like the cab doors are back, they are just more shiny due to the partial repaint

 

http://29564787448_ca091317b3_h.jpg87006 Large Logo 06-10-1984 by Andrew McConnell, on Flickr

Edited by brushman47544
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i tell you what i think....some bright spark at WN was playing games with the black paint.    i suggest they did paint the doors on the one side but not on the other.........the photo with pantograph leading (the side with the extra windows) really does very clearly like the doors are black whereas photos of the other side ....not sa much.

Edited by ThaneofFife
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