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Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)


Dick Turpin
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21 hours ago, apollanaut said:

The larger bogie wheels do make a big difference to the appearance of these excellent Hornby models. My next job is to fit the alternative bogie to my blue and silver Queen Elizabeth model, as I’m looking forward to seeing it haul my recently acquired set of matching Coronation Scot coaches. 

 

 

Thanks very much for your helpful reply! Please do let me know how you get on with your Queen Elizabeth model and the larger bogies - it's going to be a couple of months before I'm able to experiment with mine so would be grateful for any update when you've tried yourself.

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13 hours ago, drt7uk said:

 

Thanks very much for your helpful reply! Please do let me know how you get on with your Queen Elizabeth model and the larger bogies - it's going to be a couple of months before I'm able to experiment with mine so would be grateful for any update when you've tried yourself.

I’ll be more than happy to report back here once I’ve had a chance to install the alternative bogie. I’ll even include some “before and after” photos to help you decide if you want to do this for your model. I do recall that installing the bogie on my red and gold King George VI model was a little fiddly, so I will also share any tips I may have for doing this yourself.

 

I’ll next be visiting the house where my layout is based during the first weekend in June, so I hope you don’t mind waiting until then!

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10 hours ago, apollanaut said:

I’ll be more than happy to report back here once I’ve had a chance to install the alternative bogie. I’ll even include some “before and after” photos to help you decide if you want to do this for your model. I do recall that installing the bogie on my red and gold King George VI model was a little fiddly, so I will also share any tips I may have for doing this yourself.

 

I’ll next be visiting the house where my layout is based during the first weekend in June, so I hope you don’t mind waiting until then!

Thank you! I did swap them over when I first got mine, but the layout I currently have (in my parents loft) has terrible track with curves that are between 1st and 2nd, so I was just finding that the larger wheels were hitting the inside of the streamlined casing. The layout I'm currently building will have 3rd radius curves on the outer loop which I'm hoping will be OK with the larger wheels.

 

Yes absolutely, happy to wait!

Edited by drt7uk
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  • 2 weeks later...

I've now got 3 'new tooling' streamlined Coronations - 3rd one arrived last week - 6224 Princess Alexandra.

 

2 of them I've already replaced the final drive gear wheels - on the centre driver axle. This is as their grip onto the splined axle had been stripped - possibly in no small part due to some added weight - all weigh 600 - 620g loco + tender - and hauling the 9-coach blue/silver new coach rake.

 

The 'Coronation' had had pick up problems - I recognised it strangely only relied upon the tender, then even more intermittent.

 

I only run DC, and have no short-term plans to change - certainly not sound as it doesn't work that well with steam - another 'discussion' ... !!

I decided to wire the loco pick-ups to the motor to the horrible, feeble 4-pin plug wires - hate those things and I don't consider myself heavy-handed - removal is never easy.

By chance I found I'd previously purchased a black-wired 4-pin plug with heavier gauge wires, similar to Bachmann wires, and used this, plus I removed the DCC socket in the tender and wired red-to-red, and black-to-black - checking carefully all corresponded correctly with the locomotive - curiously red in the tender = red in the locomotive!

 

Works perfectly now - super smooth over any points at any speed - as it should be.

Alexandra has already had her weight adjusted and has had a haul of the 9-coach rake, without issue.

I'll still 'roster' them on these coaches - that's what they were purchased for - but won't leave them running too hard for too long.

 

Al.

Edited by atom3624
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  • 3 weeks later...

Is it me, or is the front running plate (i.e. front of loco by buffer beam) on the destreamlined models (i.e. split running plate) thicker at the rear end than the front?

It is also missing the slight change in angle that the prototype had for clearence purposes.

 

Strange when Hornby measured the real thing in such detail...

Edited by G-BOAF
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19 hours ago, G-BOAF said:

Is it me, or is the front running plate (i.e. front of loco by buffer beam) on the destreamlined models (i.e. split running plate) thicker at the rear end than the front?

It is also missing the slight change in angle that the prototype had for clearence purposes.

 

Strange when Hornby measured the real thing in such detail...

I reckon its you. Old (Sanda Kan)  and new version lower footplates both narrower at the bufferbeam than the front of the cylinder. The actual change in angle starts at the upper footplate.  Following are 46243 (old version) and 46229 (new) 

3FBE8765-E6AE-4A19-8C9E-2DE7A14523DE.jpeg

DECB320D-16DD-4857-9086-04A424B7FBBA.jpeg

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19 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I reckon its you. Old (Sanda Kan)  and new version lower footplates both narrower at the bufferbeam than the front of the cylinder. The actual change in angle starts at the upper footplate.  Following are 46243 (old version) and 46229 (new) 

3FBE8765-E6AE-4A19-8C9E-2DE7A14523DE.jpeg

DECB320D-16DD-4857-9086-04A424B7FBBA.jpeg

 

I'm refering to this change in angle on the lower footplate, seen clearly here:

http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/images/Loco57.jpg

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1 hour ago, G-BOAF said:

 

I'm refering to this change in angle on the lower footplate, seen clearly here:

http://www.hall-royd-junction.co.uk/images/Loco57.jpg

That photo is certainly clearer than your description. Agreed, Hornby haven't given us that detail. This is GOOD NEWS  - means we can ask #Accurascale to make the definitive model of the definitive steam class :)

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1 hour ago, MikeParkin65 said:

That photo is certainly clearer than your description. Agreed, Hornby haven't given us that detail. This is GOOD NEWS  - means we can ask #Accurascale to make the definitive model of the definitive steam class :)

 

I wouldn't dare to say that on any other thread. You'll start a riot! :D

But they are my favourite too. :good:

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17 hours ago, MikeParkin65 said:

That photo is certainly clearer than your description. Agreed, Hornby haven't given us that detail. This is GOOD NEWS  - means we can ask #Accurascale to make the definitive model of the definitive steam class :)

Its too soon i sense

 For me this area (front running plate on split plate locos), plus the infill unnder the boiler are the biggest weaknesses ofnthis model. Othetwise they are spectacular.

 

I would say accurascale would better concentrate their efforts on a black 5 and/or 8F as there are more improvements to be had there.

 

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8 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

Its too soon i sense

 For me this area (front running plate on split plate locos), plus the infill unnder the boiler are the biggest weaknesses ofnthis model. Othetwise they are spectacular.

 

I would say accurascale would better concentrate their efforts on a black 5 and/or 8F as there are more improvements to be had there.

 

Pretty sure he was being sarcastic. 

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Just running in 46235, a replacement from rails (delivered many months ago) for an first loco with a broken body lug and a lifted front driving wheel. Pleased to report the chassis is true, lug appears to be loose again and will be fixing with a bit of poly cement followed by some milliput to make the part more robust.

 

The rear of the tender sides are a little bowed outwards, i sense due to some flash on the tank top (flat pannel containing filler caps) which is a seperate part and pusing the sides out a bit. I will need to carefully investigate.

Decoration and mechanicals are perfect so she is generally a good 'un. Shame she is not perfect....

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I've mentioned it off-and-on within this thread recently, or possibly that of the Coronation coaches, but as the latter are a little 'draggy' I found to haul the 9-coach set appropriately - a little wheelslip to start, but OK once moving - it went better with some added weight.

 

TBH I do this anyway, so it's nothing different to normal - I like a 'big Pacific' to weigh in at ~550-600g combined - weight is added to the tender to balance the weighting - hate featherlight tenders!

 

I thought I wouldn't stress the Coronation - latest model - too much - so set it running (only in model railways!) with a rake of 8 teaks - quite a bit lighter than the rake of 9.

Dropping the wife off at the local Tesco, I returned to a static locomotive with freely whirring motor .... AGAIN!!

 

Combination of possible excessive expectations, overloading - including the extra weight in the locomotive - but those final drive / centre axle gears are a definite weak spot on the Coronations, and probably other Hornby locomotives.

 

Are there any direct fit brass gearwheels which could be considered a direct fit replacement?

as there's a potential for damaging the axle splines, I presume mounting would include heating up the brass gear wheel a touch - perhaps 10 minutes in boiling water?

 

Al.

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15 hours ago, atom3624 said:

I've mentioned it off-and-on within this thread recently, or possibly that of the Coronation coaches, but as the latter are a little 'draggy' I found to haul the 9-coach set appropriately - a little wheelslip to start, but OK once moving - it went better with some added weight.

 

TBH I do this anyway, so it's nothing different to normal - I like a 'big Pacific' to weigh in at ~550-600g combined - weight is added to the tender to balance the weighting - hate featherlight tenders!

 

I thought I wouldn't stress the Coronation - latest model - too much - so set it running (only in model railways!) with a rake of 8 teaks - quite a bit lighter than the rake of 9.

Dropping the wife off at the local Tesco, I returned to a static locomotive with freely whirring motor .... AGAIN!!

 

Combination of possible excessive expectations, overloading - including the extra weight in the locomotive - but those final drive / centre axle gears are a definite weak spot on the Coronations, and probably other Hornby locomotives.

 

Are there any direct fit brass gearwheels which could be considered a direct fit replacement?

as there's a potential for damaging the axle splines, I presume mounting would include heating up the brass gear wheel a touch - perhaps 10 minutes in boiling water?

 

Al.

An alternative might be to put the axle in the freezer overnight.

 

John.

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Pardon any ignorance on my part, but would the Ultrascale "Hornby 'Black 5 and Grange' final drive gear" be of use, or something similar? 

 

Please note, I am not sure of the new Duchess final drive specifications and have not used the Ultrascale product yet - but I am considering an Ultrascale option as I have a 8F and Royal Scot with  split drive cogs and have been looking for options.

 

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I was already ordering a couple of Ultrascale gears before the last post ... now ordered.

 

They recommend to ensure solid using Loctite 603. Ordered as well.

 

Hornby gears I measured at 11.4mm.  Ultrascale say the diameter of theirs is 11.29mm.

I'm looking forwards to receiving the gears ... just need to be very careful with the quartering ... again!

 

Al.

Edited by atom3624
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After my relatively negative press on the fragility of the final drive - of a big heavy locomotive expected to work hard (he says), if anyone's looking for one, there's a certain ' ... Model Centre' with the odd offer or 3.  :rolleyes:

 

Al.

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16 hours ago, atom3624 said:

After my relatively negative press on the fragility of the final drive - of a big heavy locomotive expected to work hard (he says), if anyone's looking for one, there's a certain ' ... Model Centre' with the odd offer or 3.  :rolleyes:

 

Al.

I have to say that my experience of the Hornby Duchess is very different to yours. I have 3 of the new version and several of the old and none of them have exhibited the mechanical frailty nor the lack of pulling power that you describe. Mine are happy pulling 8 or 9 coach loads of Bachmann Mk1's over my 'less than level' layout with at least part of the train always being on a curve (minimum 30"). I've never had to add weight and I find it hard to imagine you could so much weight that it would strip the gear train. In 20+ years of Hornby loco's I have had just one split gear - and that was on the Stanier tank.

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25 minutes ago, MikeParkin65 said:

I have to say that my experience of the Hornby Duchess is very different to yours. I have 3 of the new version and several of the old and none of them have exhibited the mechanical frailty nor the lack of pulling power that you describe. Mine are happy pulling 8 or 9 coach loads of Bachmann Mk1's over my 'less than level' layout with at least part of the train always being on a curve (minimum 30"). I've never had to add weight and I find it hard to imagine you could so much weight that it would strip the gear train. In 20+ years of Hornby loco's I have had just one split gear - and that was on the Stanier tank.

 

Hi Mike,

With normal coaching stock there is no issue - I have a 9-coach higher detail (sprung buffers) Hornby LMS train and all will haul without problem.  Royal Scots included.

ALL of my new-tool streamlined Coronations have required various amounts of 'surgery'.  R3677 Duchess of Hamilton was shorting across the sand pipes, after an earlier short through excessive solder in the sprung contacts (from the factory, Hornby warranty repaired) - to the base plate - was located.

 

Both 'blue' ones (Alexandra and Coronation) I have, have both required replacement of the final drive gear.

I will obviously trial the brass gear into Coronation, and the one reserve is ready - same for Black 5's, Royal Scots and all Coronations - previous and current.  I suspect it is the same for A3/A4 and even rebuilt Merchant Navy's.

 

I do admit that the additional weight will probably have exacerbated the experience, but was necessary to permit them to more realistically haul the 9-coach Coronation Scot train recently introduced (with lights / pickup wipers adding drag).  This is probably equivalent to perhaps 13 'normal' non-lit coaches.

 

In contrast, my earlier City of Birmingham streamliner has no such issues.  Being red, I haven't had her hauling the Coronation Scot rake in fairness. Yes, she has added weight, as I do to all 8P class Pacifics - and smaller if they appear excessively light.

 

I don't have a habit of slamming onto full, but will occasionally fairly substantially increase power, if I see a stall, momentarily, to get the train moving without the HoG.

 

Al.

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17 hours ago, atom3624 said:

After my relatively negative press on the fragility of the final drive - of a big heavy locomotive expected to work hard (he says), if anyone's looking for one, there's a certain ' ... Model Centre' with the odd offer or 3.  :rolleyes:

 

Al.

 

be quick folks, only one left at £95 (including postage)!

 

https://www.themodelcentre.com/r3639-Hornby-oo-gauge-lms-princess-coronation-class-4-6-2-6244-king-george-vi-era-3

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

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The more I look at the new Coronation (proper version) the more impressed I am with the look and presence it has, regardless of the slight discrepencies in the angles of the front running plate (as commented above). The green of 46235 could be a little darker I guess, especially when compared to 2010-era models which I feel was the best rendition of BR Green Hornby have done.

 

I will need to do something about the daylight visible through the frames behind the cylinders from a rear three-quarters angle (basically clear line of sight from the outside cylinders.

I'm tempted to mock up the middle cylinders and valve gear (visible through the cutoutouts ahead of the outside cylinders) and play around with some plasticard to reduce daylight from other angles. The 'frames' (namely chassis casting) is raised here to allow the cylinder block to be screwed in, but I don't know why the cylinder moulding isn't designed to fill in the air space below it. I sense the design was not evaluated from 'all angles'.

20210630_170917.jpg.7e74a8bedacaf2a32826498c2cc1c222.jpg

 

That said, this is a minor point and that is what modelling is for!

 

Now for fettling my etched Fox plates and fashioning a representation of the bracket that holds the top of the crest to the boiler :-)

 

 

46235 City of Birmingham in Think Tank Science Museum ,Millenium Point Birmingham.

 

Edited by G-BOAF
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19 minutes ago, G-BOAF said:

The more I look at the new Coronation (proper version) the more impressed I am with the look and presence it has, regardless of the slight discrepencies in the angles of the front running plate (as commented above). The green of 46235 could be a little darker I guess, especially when compared to 2010-era models which I feel was the best rendition of BR Green Hornby have done.

 

I will need to do something about the daylight visible through the frames behind the cylinders from a rear three-quarters angle (basically clear line of sight from the outside cylinders.

I'm tempted to mock up the middle cylinders and valve gear (visible through the cutoutouts ahead of the outside cylinders) and play around with some plasticard to reduce daylight from other angles. The 'frames' (namely chassis casting) is raised here to allow the cylinder block to be screwed in, but I don't know why the cylinder moulding isn't designed to fill in the air space below it. I sense the design was not evaluated from 'all angles'.

20210630_170917.jpg.7e74a8bedacaf2a32826498c2cc1c222.jpg

 

That said, this is a minor point and that is what modelling is for!

 

Now for fettling my etched Fox plates and fashioning a representation of the bracket that holds the top of the crest to the boiler :-)

 

 

46235 City of Birmingham in Think Tank Science Museum ,Millenium Point Birmingham.

 

Interesting that you've posted this picture of the real City of Birmingham to show the fastening of both the nameplate and crest. I went to look at the loco as well to get a steer on how to do this on a model.

 

I'm currently looking at putting plates on two older "Cities", but the issue is the same, namely the lack of surface area for both nameplate and crest to grip. On one loco I've cut away the moulded boiler band so that the nameplate sits between the cuts, on another I've kept the moulded nameplate from Hornby in place and glued the new one on top. This will be "City of Coventry", with crest, and I've glued some thin pasticard behind the etched crest that will then sit on the moulded nameplate and hopefully adhere.

 

This isn't straightforward at all.

 

John.

Edited by John Tomlinson
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