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Dick Turpin

Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

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I'm afraid that is a sign of the times.It is a building that houses a large number of priceless transport treasures apart from which it is an excellent interactive learning facility for all ages.Another factor which you maybe unaware of is that Birmingham City Council is in severe financial difficulty for a variety of reasons many (but not all) of them self inflicted. The newly opened and rather wonderful Library Of Birmingham has had its opening hours drastically cut annd many of its staff have faced either cuts in working hours or redundancy. A couple of reasons why you are faced with an entry fee which you find unacceptable. If we want such facilities we must face the cost of them.Sorry but there it is and it won't get any better any time soon.

 

A slight misunderstanding what I meant.

 

I had about an hour to waste whilst in Birmingham and thought that I'll have a quick look in Think Tank. 

 

If I was there all day then no problem paying, but I still think that £13 is extortionate when most local authority museums are free. As are all the National Museums including the NRM and the excellent Museum Of Science And Industry in Manchester, where you can even get rides behind Planet.

 

Or the Museum Of Liverpool where you can see Lion. Another city with a new museum, library and a bankrupt council. Yet the museum is still free.

 

 

Instead The Railway by New Street station got my money. But we are getting off the subject of Duchesses now.

 

 

 

Jason

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Guest Midland Mole

No one get my boss started on the whole "City of Birmingham static display" subject! He thinks it is criminal that a perfectly good Duchess is locked away in a museum instead of stretching hers legs on the mainline. :D

(I am inclined to agree with him) ;)

 

Alex

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As an aside, I was in Birmingham a couple of weeks ago and planned on popping in to Think Tank to have a quick look at 46235 as I had bit of time to waste.

 

Not at that price I wasn't. No problem about paying for things, But £13? Blimey.

 

 

Maybe I would pay that if I was going to be there all day. But not for a flying visit. I went to the pub instead.

 

 

 

Jason

How much did you spend in the pub? ;)

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How much did you spend in the pub? ;)

Does it matter?

I go along with Jason. It is the principle rather than the amount.

Especially so when they have a superb art gallery that is free.

I would often call in just to see a couple of items and be there no more than 20 minutes.

For many years I was a regular visitor to Birmingham for meetings and these were usually held in rented public rooms.

The cost rapidly increased and we changed to using facilities run by various local charities.

They appreciated the money, we new it went to a good cause and the local authority lost out.

A sort of vicious circle partly of the councils own making.

Bernard

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No one get my boss started on the whole "City of Birmingham static display" subject! He thinks it is criminal that a perfectly good Duchess is locked away in a museum instead of stretching hers legs on the mainline. :D

(I am inclined to agree with him) ;)

 

Alex

Wouldn't be so bad if the display was sympathetic and informative. On my one and only visit to the 'ThinkTank' the 'information' consisted of a derailed Triang model of a streamlined Duchess in a case- presumably to imply 'it used to look like this (the enthusiast in me thinking 'so about 8 feet shorter with an approximation of A3 valve gear then'!)'. 46235 is crammed in a dark corner, separated from its tender and with deteriorating paintwork.

 

I wouldn't necessarily support seeing it returned to the mainline but it deserves a better fate than it currently endures. 

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The museum charge entry question was discussed in depth here a couple of years ago and it clearly remains an emotive subject. Whilst I can understand the arguments for free entry, I also think that in a time of financial austerity and tight finances that it is difficult to defend free entry into museums at a time when public spending is being cut, economic growth is sluggish, there is huge economic uncertainty and national debt and the budget deficit are both very high. For all I’d like to see museums free, ultimately it isn’t unreasonable to expect those who enjoy visiting museums to contribute to their upkeep via entry charges in a time of austerity (you could argue not just for times of austerity). If we don’t pay entry charges we all pay via taxation anyway, and there is something to be said for the argument that an actual payment (as opposed to it getting lost in what we pay in tax) creates a link between what we pay and our expectations which can be a positive mechanism.


There is a more troubling aspect to free government museums I think, the effect it has on private or government collections which are not free. Private museums make a significant contribution to preserving our national heritage and by definition have to find their own funding meaning they charge admission. Sometimes the costs of maintaining these museums can mean entry charges can be quite high. I hear over and over again people saying they don’t go to such and such a museum because it is too expensive and should be free. I suspect that attitude has largely been created by the availability of free entry government museums.


I think it should be quite possible to offer concessions to local council tax payers (if they’re already funding a museum via a local authority budget) or those on benefits as a means of encouraging locals and the less well-off to keep visiting museums. Tullie House museum in Carlisle used to have discounted admission for local people and it didn’t seem to impose any great burdens.

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... I think it should be quite possible to offer concessions to local council tax payers (if they’re already funding a museum via a local authority budget) or those on benefits as a means of encouraging locals and the less well-off to keep visiting museums. Tullie House museum in Carlisle used to have discounted admission for local people and it didn’t seem to impose any great burdens.

 

 

A quarter of a century ago, Southampton City Council realised its taxpayers (including large numbers of generally poorer people, but with higher council tax rates) were subsidising the cultural and sports activities of the generally richer people who were living in the neighbouring council areas (New Forest, Winchester, etc), where they had few facilities but paid very low council tax. The latter mostly drove into Southampton.

 

So the Council introduced a residents card: a small fee got you a photo id which gave you very cut-rate prices to everything - sports facilities, swimming pools, galleries and museums; if you didn't have a card you had to pay the full price which, over time, went rather steeply upwards. Anyone from outside the city could buy a card - at a premium rate, but then they got the discount. I'm sure it wasn't the only creative council looking at these issues.

 

I'm always surprised that museums and galleries are not more creative in their charges; when we go to a car park we pay different fees related to the length of stay. Why is there just a flat-rate entry fee for (most) galleries and museums? I'm sympathetic to people who want to kill an odd half hour doing something enlightening or enjoyable, but baulk at paying a full day's charge. Why should they pay that?

 

Your other point, about free national museums setting a pricing expectation, is well made. 

 

Paul

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How much did you spend in the pub? ;)

  

Does it matter?

 

It was a light hearted remark Bernard.

:)

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Wouldn't be so bad if the display was sympathetic and informative. On my one and only visit to the 'ThinkTank' the 'information' consisted of a derailed Triang model of a streamlined Duchess in a case- presumably to imply 'it used to look like this (the enthusiast in me thinking 'so about 8 feet shorter with an approximation of A3 valve gear then'!)'. 46235 is crammed in a dark corner, separated from its tender and with deteriorating paintwork.

 

I wouldn't necessarily support seeing it returned to the mainline but it deserves a better fate than it currently endures. 

Perhaps ten (or so) visitors might pay for a new Hornby streamlined Coronation when Hornby gets around to producing one. Do we need estimates and a business case to put the model wheels back onto the track?

 

As I remember 46235 she faced a floor-to ceiling window, she gleamed and she was attached to her tender. It’s sad that now she is as you describe.

 

I don’t favour putting her into running order. There are not all that many steam locomotives more-or-less in the same state as they were when withdrawn and we already have (4)6233 in mainline working condition. Besides, money is short. If there were enough of it shloshing about, I’d much rather see (4)6229 in her streamlined casing charging about.

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It was a light hearted remark Bernard.

:)

So was mine Colin as I ended up even further of topic than you. :jester:

Bernard

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Not as much as I would have liked to have spent. :drinks: 

 

 

I had set time tickets for the train so I wasn't going to waste them and then have to pay £40 to get home.

 

 

Jason

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money is short. If there were enough of it shloshing about, I’d much rather see (4)6229 in her streamlined casing charging about.

 

I would fly back to England to see that. :)

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Updated pictures now up on the Hornby website.

 

I really love "Sir William Stanier FRS" in it's beautiful BR Maroon livery.

r3509tts-city-of-birmingham-to-supply-cm

r3553-duchess-of-atholl-side-to-supply.j

r3555-william-stanier-loco-side-to-suppl

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Updated pictures now up on the Hornby website.

 

I really love "Sir William Stanier FRS" in it's beautiful BR Maroon livery.

 

r3509tts-city-of-birmingham-to-supply-cm

r3553-duchess-of-atholl-side-to-supply.j

r3555-william-stanier-loco-side-to-suppl

Now they do look good

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Oh man, the end of the year can't come soon enough, I love the way they look, I can't wait till they arrive after I pay for the pre-orders.

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Flanged trailing wheels are a good sign.

Yep, sure is. Hopefully there will be something of a pivotable trailing bogie along with the flanged wheels. Lovely pics.

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Lovely pics indeed, I am gonna have a hard choosing between this and the Merchant Navy for model of the year award, despite being a die hard southern fan!

Cannot wait for Sir William Stanier.

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droooool!!

Lovely looking beasts!

Now, how long will I have to wait for a Maroon Hamilton as running in the 1960s (or 1980s/90s)??

The Ivatt Duchess does look magnificant, but totally out of era for a preservation modeller... I've never been so tempted to break my own modelling rules!

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One thing, that has always been Hornby's strong point, is that it can make a superb model when they want to. No other manufacturers offerings ever quite seem to offer the 'finesse' of a modern day Hornby Product. 

 

Digressing slightly...The other week I had a test 'drive' with two recent 08 Shunter purchases, both brand new - Hornby's out of the box ran like a dream and as smooth as silk, the other 'blue box' version, was ok, but nothing in comparison.

 

Regards.

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Good to see as much of the brake gear as they can fit filling the gap between the front drivers and the bogie  - makes a big visual improvement. Agree with dogsbody that Hornby usually get a greater finesse into their models - but then spoil it by a flat and lifeless finish. I am cautious about these photos - Hornby colour illustrations are often better than the colour of the model inside the box!

 

But overall these all look superb - am genuinely excited! :)

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That tender looks much better than the standard stanier, hooked up to Hornbys other LMS locos. Just need it in my sticky little paws now.

Edited by farren

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 Irresistible to add that the distortion in this panorama to produce a mega-tender, gives a suggestion of how they might have looked with a tender large enough for a mechanical stoking engine and a bunker for 15-20 tons of coal; to enable the full power capability to be sustained beyond what any fireman could deliver. No need to stop for bankers on Shap or Beattock had that been done. Would have required installation of a few 80' turntables scattered along the WCML.

 

And it is one snappy livery - when kept this clean.

 

 

They regularly didn't stop for bankers at Beattock.

 

They were designed to haul a lot more than 'Caledonian limited loads' up both banks unaided and did so but latterly they often stopped possibly to give the

 

fireman a breather. 

 

Even in their final days they were charging through Beattock in the 80s and taking the hill unaided.

 

Interestingly in the O S Nock book  'West Coast Running'..it has a Princess on the cover from memory..there is a detailed log of 46251 on the up Mid Day

 

Scot albeit running down the bank but very fast indeed with a max of 105mph at Beattock station.

 

That must have been sight.

 

Dave.

Edited by vitalspark

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I've read the true power was never reached. Even at the derby testing station. When on test with two firemen doing their best to keep up with the fire, full power was never reached. What was found to happen was the fire would start to chock with crinkle. Rumours was that the idea was to fit a larger firebox with a auto feeder. This was one possible idea for the super Duchess. In one of my books suggest it being a 4-6-4 or 4-8-2 (cant find which one at mo) though I can't see fitting a bigger firebox would work on a 4-8-2. Others may know better.

Edited by farren

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