Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[Pete the Elaner]

Nice idea, though for me I'd rather see three million put towards having Hamilton back on the mainline and in streamlined form too :-)

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

That would be nice but I was told that there is something about the modifications made to bring it into gauge have made it impossible to steam.

As for 6235: It was the first to be de-streamlined & the only one of the class to carry wartime black as a semi. I guess I am in a minority wanting to see it like that?

[farren]

What a great idea to bring it into gauge so it can be moved on the network but can't be steamed! Might as well have left it out of gauge and just maybe she could have run on a heritage line. she can't do either now!! Or I'm I missing something?

Edited April 21, 2017 by farren

[Brocp]

That would be nice but I was told that there is something about the modifications made to bring it into gauge have made it impossible to steam.

As for 6235: It was the first to be de-streamlined & the only one of the class to carry wartime black as a semi. I guess I am in a minority wanting to see it like that?

6221 was unlined black as a semi until 1948 and possibly until painted BR blue.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0000-01-s-lathlane-6221-crewe.jpg

 

(Edited to add link of to pic of her)

Edited April 21, 2017 by Brocp

[pH]

As for 6235: It was the first to be de-streamlined & the only one of the class to carry wartime black as a semi. I guess I am in a minority wanting to see it like that?

 

An article by Ian Sixsmith titled "The Coronation Pacifics - A Primer" in "British Railways Illustrated" for August 2001 says that 6235 was de-streamlined in April 1946 and went from wartime black to (lined) LMS black in the same month. That would indicate it did not carry wartime black in service in its de-streamlined form.

 

I see the date for LMS lined black does not agree with the date given in the Wikipedia article on the class (January 1947).

 

6221 was unlined black as a semi until 1948 and possibly until painted BR blue.

 

http://www.davidheyscollection.com/userimages/0000-01-s-lathlane-6221-crewe.jpg

 

(Edited to add link of to pic of her)

 

That article does not give dates for de-streamlining, except for 6235 (the first to have this done) as noted above. The Wikipedia article says 6221 was de-streamlined in June 1946. The BRILL article says 6221 went from wartime black to LMS (lined) black in July 1946. With these dates only a month apart, I think it's reasonable to guess that the repaint was done in the same works visit as the de-streamlining.  (It also says 6221 went to BR blue in February 1950). 

 

Again according to the BRILL article, the only member of the class to go directly from wartime black to BR blue was 6243 in June 1949.

[Brocp]

An article by Ian Sixsmith titled "The Coronation Pacifics - A Primer" in "British Railways Illustrated" for August 2001 says that 6235 was de-streamlined in April 1946 and went from wartime black to (lined) LMS black in the same month. That would indicate it did not carry wartime black in service in its de-streamlined form.

 

I see the date for LMS lined black does not agree with the date given in the Wikipedia article on the class (January 1947).

 

 

That article does not give dates for de-streamlining, except for 6235 (the first to have this done) as noted above. The Wikipedia article says 6221 was de-streamlined in June 1946. The BRILL article says 6221 went from wartime black to LMS (lined) black in July 1946. With these dates only a month apart, I think it's reasonable to guess that the repaint was done in the same works visit as the de-streamlining. (It also says 6221 went to BR blue in February 1950).

 

Again according to the BRILL article, the only member of the class to go directly from wartime black to BR blue was 6243 in June 1949.

Brill article is wrong. LMS locomotive profiles number 11 states it ran in unlined black from 28 June 46 until at least 22 October 48 where it received it's BR number.

 

The book "The Duchess Stanier's Masterpiece" by Roger J Mannion has a photo of 6221 pulling an express in unlined black on 27 May 1947.

 

"LMS Days" (WD & DS Cooper) has a photo (not dated) of her running at Golborne in unlined black as well.

 

In "The Book Of Coronation Pacifics MKll" on page 34 there is a picture of 46221 in July 1949, it's fairly grubby in the pic, the blurb underneath says it would be 1946 lined black but i don't think so, especially as there are a few "cleaner patches along the frame edge and no sign of lining at all. This is also backed up by their own table on page 64 that states she was unlined black until repainting in to BR blue in March 1950.

[Brocp]

Just to change the subject slightly, with how brilliant these modern Duchesses look, I personally cannot wait for them to announce a new Princess Royal. That's one model crying out for retooling

[brushman47544]

That would be nice but I was told that there is something about the modifications made to bring it into gauge have made it impossible to steam.

 

Presumably in original streamlined form it was within gauge, so why not now? I hope it's not another case of more recent engineering works reducing the gauge compared to BR days; isn't NR (and Railtrack before it) supposed to maintain the network to original gauge? How else can grandfather rights be assured from a safety perspective?

[MikeParkin65]

Just to change the subject slightly, with how brilliant these modern Duchesses look, I personally cannot wait for them to announce a new Princess Royal. That's one model crying out for retooling

We won't tease an official response from Hornby but I think it's almost inevitable. When the last incarnation of the Duchess came out it was released almost simultaneously with the Princess. I recall Hornby saying something along the lines of 6201 being a 'must have' in the Hornsby range due to it being a constant since Triang days. Personally I think Hattons missed a trick when they commissioned the King from DJM - a Princess to the standard proposed would have been an instant hit and with so many possible liveries .....

[JSpencer]

We won't tease an official response from Hornby but I think it's almost inevitable. When the last incarnation of the Duchess came out it was released almost simultaneously with the Princess. I recall Hornby saying something along the lines of 6201 being a 'must have' in the Hornsby range due to it being a constant since Triang days. Personally I think Hattons missed a trick when they commissioned the King from DJM - a Princess to the standard proposed would have been an instant hit and with so many possible liveries .....

 

I suggested - jokingly - at the time (once both kings were announced) that Hattons stretch their King CAD to include trailing wheels and turn it into a Princess to avoid duplication.

 

When Hornby did their last so called re-tool of the Princess in 2003, was it an entirely new model (like their 2003 Duchess was) or was it the 80s model completely revamped (like the did with the c2003 King)?

I have never been able to compare the too directly in the flesh, but those I did see looked - to my mind - to be the 80s Princess model revamped.

[MikeParkin65]

I suggested - jokingly - at the time (once both kings were announced) that Hattons stretch their King CAD to include trailing wheels and turn it into a Princess to avoid duplication.

 

When Hornby did their last so called re-tool of the Princess in 2003, was it an entirely new model (like their 2003 Duchess was) or was it the 80s model completely revamped (like the did with the c2003 King)?

I have never been able to compare the too directly in the flesh, but those I did see looked - to my mind - to be the 80s Princess model revamped.

That's an interesting question - the Princess body moulding certainly lacks the finesse of the 2003 Duchess. I've got an 80's Princess I use for painting practice, I'll do a comparison when I get home.

[sandwich station]

That's an interesting question - the Princess body moulding certainly lacks the finesse of the 2003 Duchess. I've got an 80's Princess I use for painting practice, I'll do a comparison when I get home.

 

It's the same body with updated motion.

[45568]

We won't tease an official response from Hornby but I think it's almost inevitable. When the last incarnation of the Duchess came out it was released almost simultaneously with the Princess. I recall Hornby saying something along the lines of 6201 being a 'must have' in the Hornsby range due to it being a constant since Triang days. Personally I think Hattons missed a trick when they commissioned the King from DJM - a Princess to the standard proposed would have been an instant hit and with so many possible liveries .....

I am glad Hattons did not commission this, I would much rather have the (eventual) Hornby version than the DJM promised version of the 'King' with coreless motor etc .(And hopefully within a reasonable timeframe!).

 From an Oz dinosaur,

Peter C.

[MikeParkin65]

I am glad Hattons did not commission this, I would much rather have the (eventual) Hornby version than the DJM promised version of the 'King' with coreless motor etc .(And hopefully within a reasonable timeframe!).

 From an Oz dinosaur,

Peter C.

Fair dinkum

[MikeParkin65]

A Preservation modeller? That's an area that intrigues me a lot and one which I hope we, as enthusiasts, can explore in conversations at the remaining shows that Hornby will be attending this year. By Preservation, do you mean as per the locomotive's last running in service, or post-restoration? Does this mean that you would run the locomotive with a mish-mash of rolling stock, in different liveries?

Look forward to some responses on this aspect of modelling....

 

Paul.

Speaking as a modeller whose collection is broadly 60's I'd be interested in the following in their as preserved livery and running specials in the 1960's on BR .

 

From  existing tooling :-

 

• Pegler 4472 Flying Scotsman (2 variations of LNER livery to choose from)
• A4 Society 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley (Garter blue with pre war number but double chimney and red wheels)
• 7029 Clun Castle (BR built Castle in GW livery)
• 4079 Pendennis Castle (GW livery complete with 'Indian red' frames)
• And LSWR 120 again (because I missed it first time round!)

 

And if you were feeling adventurous could an LNER k4 be made using the existing K1 chassis? If so 3442 as well

[No Decorum]

Speaking as a modeller whose collection is broadly 60's I'd be interested in the following in their as preserved livery and running specials in the 1960's on BR .

 

From  existing tooling :-

 

• Pegler 4472 Flying Scotsman (2 variations of LNER livery to choose from)
• A4 Society 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley (Garter blue with pre war number but double chimney and red wheels)
• 7029 Clun Castle (BR built Castle in GW livery)
• 4079 Pendennis Castle (GW livery complete with 'Indian red' frames)
• And LSWR 120 again (because I missed it first time round!)

 

And if you were feeling adventurous could an LNER k4 be made using the existing K1 chassis? If so 3442 as well

Lovely machine, the K4. If someone knocks one out in LNER green, that person should be quids in.

[Francis deWeck]

ref #278:

 

The trailing bogie - fixed axle - then seems to be a continuation of the one design concept fits all. I will have to wait and see as stated. However, I feel that I will be looking for a handy builder to convert the trailing bogie fitting a Comet kit in its place.

[adb968008]

We won't tease an official response from Hornby but I think it's almost inevitable. When the last incarnation of the Duchess came out it was released almost simultaneously with the Princess. I recall Hornby saying something along the lines of 6201 being a 'must have' in the Hornsby range due to it being a constant since Triang days. Personally I think Hattons missed a trick when they commissioned the King from DJM - a Princess to the standard proposed would have been an instant hit and with so many possible liveries .....

Especially if there was a turbo option catered into the tooling.

[melmerby]

 

 

I have a T.J. Edgington photo of 46237 at Birmingham Snow Hill (not displayed for copyright reasons).  It is dated 28 April 1955 and labelled as 46237 on the 9.10 Paddington - Birkenhead.  46237 has the standard WR reporting numbers on the smokebox door (180).  The train formation appears to be entirely ex-GWR stock.  There is no sign of any dynanometer car, so 46237 appears to have been used on 'ordinary' expresses as part of the testing programme.

A bit like this:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birmingham-snowhill/locomotives/gwrbsh1317.jpg

 

It was on the WR for a month during apr/may 55

Some claim was on the WR because of the King bogie problem. Can't be right as AFAIK the King Bogie temporary withdrawals weren't until Jan 56!

There's a B&W picture of the same loco on an up train in April as well.

 

keith

Edited April 21, 2017 by melmerby

[Ian Hargrave]

A bit like this:

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/birmingham-snowhill/locomotives/gwrbsh1317.jpg

 

It was on the WR for a month during apr/may 55

Some claim was on the WR because of the King bogie problem. Can't be right as AFAIK the King Bogie temporary withdrawals weren't until Jan 56!

There's a B&W picture of the same loco on an up train in April as well.

 

The temporary withdrawal of the Kings for a short while was the reason for the use of the Duchesses on the WR.I am wary of dates printed in railway boks/anthologies and on websites.There are far too many mistakes /printer's errors in evidence

keith

[Pete the Elaner]

Brill article is wrong. LMS locomotive profiles number 11 states it ran in unlined black from 28 June 46 until at least 22 October 48 where it received it's BR number.

 

The book "The Duchess Stanier's Masterpiece" by Roger J Mannion has a photo of 6221 pulling an express in unlined black on 27 May 1947.

 

"LMS Days" (WD & DS Cooper) has a photo (not dated) of her running at Golborne in unlined black as well.

 

In "The Book Of Coronation Pacifics MKll" on page 34 there is a picture of 46221 in July 1949, it's fairly grubby in the pic, the blurb underneath says it would be 1946 lined black but i don't think so, especially as there are a few "cleaner patches along the frame edge and no sign of lining at all. This is also backed up by their own table on page 64 that states she was unlined black until repainting in to BR blue in March 1950.

You can't argue with a photo & the one you included earlier proves that it did indeed run in unlined black as a semi.

Jenkinson's gives 4/46 as de-sreamlining for 6235 & 6/46 for repainting into 1946 lined black, then 7/46 for 6221's de-streamlining. There is obviously an error here.

It also says 6222 was de-streamlined a month before 6221 & went straight into 1946 lined black. I am thinking that this was also wrong.

 

6233 was never a semi anyway & 6229 was one of the last to be de-streamlined so 6235 is the only 1 of the preserved 3 to have carried unlined black as a semi.

[Pete the Elaner]

Presumably in original streamlined form it was within gauge, so why not now? I hope it's not another case of more recent engineering works reducing the gauge compared to BR days; isn't NR (and Railtrack before it) supposed to maintain the network to original gauge? How else can grandfather rights be assured from a safety perspective?

There could be several reason for this:

 

1. What I heard could simply be wrong.

2. We never had OLE when the locos ran in the 30's & 40's. This could be something to do with it.

3. It may have been very route-restricted in BR days (weren't they banned from going to Birmingham without special clearance?). Network Rail may be more stringent with their route availability requirements than the LMS were.

 

These are not facts, the first is hearsay & 2-3 are guesses. I hope I am wrong & it appears on the mainline one day, although drifting smoke could be an issue too. Since returning to the main line, 6233 has always run with deflectors. It never had them in the 30's so I wonder if these are a safety requirement?

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

It was on the WR for a month during apr/may 55

Some claim was on the WR because of the King bogie problem. Can't be right as AFAIK the King Bogie temporary withdrawals weren't until Jan 56!...

 LMR's 46237 City of Bristol,  was operated on WR in spring 1955 to provide comparison data for the King class modifications to enable the Cornish Riviera to be acclerated to a 4 hour schedule.

[Paul_sterling]

A Preservation modeller? That's an area that intrigues me a lot and one which I hope we, as enthusiasts, can explore in conversations at the remaining shows that Hornby will be attending this year. By Preservation, do you mean as per the locomotive's last running in service, or post-restoration? Does this mean that you would run the locomotive with a mish-mash of rolling stock, in different liveries?

Look forward to some responses on this aspect of modelling....

 

Paul.

Paul,

 

for the most part, this is what I have centered my model railways around, the preservation era. I've always preferred it that way as the locomotives which I have known and remember growing up, are only preserved examples, I was born in the late 80's so never knew the real BR steam era. that doesn't mean my favourite era isn't the late 50's early 60's, but a lot of the preservation railways aim for this era on "their railways"

 

cheers,

Paul. 

[Paul_sterling]

There could be several reason for this:

 

1. What I heard could simply be wrong.

2. We never had OLE when the locos ran in the 30's & 40's. This could be something to do with it.

3. It may have been very route-restricted in BR days (weren't they banned from going to Birmingham without special clearance?). Network Rail may be more stringent with their route availability requirements than the LMS were.

 

These are not facts, the first is hearsay & 2-3 are guesses. I hope I am wrong & it appears on the mainline one day, although drifting smoke could be an issue too. Since returning to the main line, 6233 has always run with deflectors. It never had them in the 30's so I wonder if these are a safety requirement?

 

on point 3, they were banned from steaming south of Crewe (udner the then installed electric wires), after-which the remaining Duchesses were swiftly withdrawn. 

 

These days a number of the bigger express classes have had to be re-engineered to fit under the lower NR height restrictions.

 

Paul.  

[Fairburn]

There could be several reason for this:

 

1. What I heard could simply be wrong.

2. We never had OLE when the locos ran in the 30's & 40's. This could be something to do with it.

3. It may have been very route-restricted in BR days (weren't they banned from going to Birmingham without special clearance?). Network Rail may be more stringent with their route availability requirements than the LMS were.

 

These are not facts, the first is hearsay & 2-3 are guesses. I hope I am wrong & it appears on the mainline one day, although drifting smoke could be an issue too. Since returning to the main line, 6233 has always run with deflectors. It never had them in the 30's so I wonder if these are a safety requirement?

Weren't the Big Lizzies fitted with deflectors progressively following the introduction of the double chimney? Sure I've read there was an issue of drifting smoke once in this guise which was obscuring the driver's view of signalling.

 

Also read that Stanier, when made CME of the LMS, had a loco fitted with lead fingers to check clearances on many routes as they'd not been checked for years.