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Dick Turpin

Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

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I hope the shade of red is down to reproduction in the magazines and on screen. Hornby have yet to get MR/LMS/BR Red right. It would be a tragedy if they do not manage to get it right for Sir William!

I am hoping it will be released in 1946 black, without that nasty 4 on the front of its number.

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Something seems to be missing...

 

Oh yes! an A3 being dragged backwards!

 

Only joking ladies, only joking....

 

Ian.

I'm sure that was Stanier's former boss, Mr Churchward :rolleyes:

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I am hoping it will be released in 1946 black, without that nasty 4 on the front of its number.

Surely bound to follow - if not Rails should commission it and maybe boxset it with the Ivatt diesels

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Hmmm,  Don't understand this one, sorry?

I think it was a slight mis-quote of this, about Churchward:

 

On one occasion, the GWR's directors confronted Churchward, and demanded to know why the London and North Western Railway were able to build three 4-6-0 locomotives for the price of two of Churchward's "Stars". Churchward allegedly gave a terse response: "Because one of mine could pull two of their bloody things backwards!"[2]

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I think it was a slight mis-quote of this, about Churchward:

 

On one occasion, the GWR's directors confronted Churchward, and demanded to know why the London and North Western Railway were able to build three 4-6-0 locomotives for the price of two of Churchward's "Stars". Churchward allegedly gave a terse response: "Because one of mine could pull two of their bloody things backwards!"[2]

Which he knew to be untrue (a Claughton with its brakes on would be immovable by two Stars or whatever) but the limitations of the technical education of his directors precluded the answer he might have liked to have given. Probably something on the lines of "Because in service lifetime power output, twice the power output per pound sterling of initial build cost will be obtained from our design constructed to our standards, compared to the LNWR design of Crewed construction.

 

Which is not to say that GJC's approach was correct: the greater first cost of this approach as compared to cheaper build for a shorter working life, saw the other outfit ultimately in possession of significantly superior equipment...

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How I wish Locoman Superior Steam sounds had the Duchess on his to do list........

That would be nice. His range is growing though.

It makes me wonder, would a single chimney Duchess have a different exhaust note from one with a double?

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It does look nice and I am looking forward to receiving mine.  However, I can't help thinking it might be quite exciting going down Camden Bank with only two brake shoes on each side.  The omission of the front brake shoes has already been commented on and a reason offered.  I don't suppose I will notice it when running on my train set.

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Considering the lengths we have gone to, to ensure accuracy, and the people who have helped with samples (one particular person from this forum in particular), we're happy this is right.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

Whilst I admire the amount of work that goes into the research, design and manufacture of all these models, I must say I am a little doubtful regarding the colour. I have no idea whether it is simply down to the lighting and camera etc. But I sincerely hope it is the right shade because on my laptop screen it looks far too dark. Maybe (and this is a strong hint), in a future edition of "The Engine Shed" Hornby can take a picture of R3555 "Sir William Stanier F R S" under some natural sunlight sort of condition and then we'll see how it turns out.

 

What Hornby did:

post-27484-0-01176100-1502383404_thumb.jpg

 

What I feel is more accurate (though it could improve):

post-27484-0-10021100-1502383435_thumb.jpg

Edited by MGR Hooper!
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Which he knew to be untrue (a Claughton with its brakes on would be immovable by two Stars or whatever) but the limitations of the technical education of his directors precluded the answer he might have liked to have given.

The trials involved Polar Star and an Experiment - "Worcestershire".  The Claughtons didn't come along until later. 

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Whilst I admire the amount of work that goes into the research, design and manufacture of all these models, I must say I am a little doubtful regarding the colour. I have no idea whether it is simply down to the lighting and camera etc. But I sincerely hope it is the right shade because on my laptop screen it looks far too dark. Maybe (and this is a strong hint), in a future edition of "The Engine Shed" Hornby can take a picture of R3555 "Sir William Stanier F R S" under some natural sunlight sort of condition and then we'll see how it turns out.

 

What Hornby did:

attachicon.gifR3555_1_web (1).jpg

 

What I feel is more accurate (though it could improve):

attachicon.gifR3555_1_web.jpg

 

As an ex-works / specially cleaned rendition of 46256, I agree with your interpretation.

 

However, I have several photos of the locomotive in service, but still clean, and the crimson lake has certainly darkened - though perhaps not quite as dark as the Hornby version.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood. 

Edited by cctransuk

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As an ex-works / specially cleaned rendition of 46256, I's agree with your interpretation.

 

However, I have several photos of the locomotive in service, but still clean, and the crimson lake has certainly darkened - though perhaps not quite as dark as the Hornby version.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood. 

 

brm267-colourrail-image-for-r3555.jpg

 

the crewe ex-works image from Hornby's website

 

To my mind, all the renders are too dark, this image shows it a bit lighter, and the yellow more dull.

 

(Whats on the tender axle box cover closest to the footplate ?)

Edited by adb968008

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The real crimson lake (or what BR called maroon) could be pretty elusive and look bright in sunlight and positively gloomy in overcast conditions. Regular railway photographers over-exposed their pictures to a degree so as to include detail in the shadows, but of course it also made crimson lake appear brighter than it really was. The Duchess at Crewe in post #352 has the hallmarks of being scanned from a transparency duplicate. It also has a red cast.

Edited by coachmann

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Is the crank on the centre driving wheel correct? It looks to be leaning backwards rather than forwards.

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Is the crank on the centre driving wheel correct? It looks to be leaning backwards rather than forwards.

To me it looks to be parallel to the speedo drive crank which sits (of course) in the middle.

 

Keith

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The real crimson lake (or what BR called maroon) could be pretty elusive and look bright in sunlight and positively gloomy in overcast conditions. Regular railway photographers over-exposed their pictures to a degree so as to include detail in the shadows, but of course it also made crimson lake appear brighter than it really was. The Duchess at Crewe in post #352 has the hallmarks of being scanned from a transparency duplicate. It also has a red cast.

Thank you for setting the record straight.I think we have to be careful not to rush to judgement here.

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I think we have to be careful not to rush to judgement here.

Yes indeed. We all know photo reproduction on a screen can vary wildly between everyone.

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Hornby has made the colour too dark and put a vertical red stripe on the trailing truck axlebox for no other reason than to draw my (and no-one else’s) eye away from the flangeless trailing wheels. Obviously unsuccessfully. I was getting hopeful when I saw a Hornby picture with what appeared to be flanged wheels but it was a dupe. They are clever people at Hornby. Surely they don’t need me to remind them of the various suggestions made on the forum. Thin brass frames. No cross member on the rear of the truck to permit the sides to flex outwards on curves. An actual trailing truck instead of a fixed one. About all I can say is that at least the wheels don’t seem to dangle high* above the rail head as on other Hornby offerings. Come on, Mr. Isles! You and your team can do better than this!

 

It’s a good job that there are no MiM (Men in Maroon), although it’s the men in white coats which should worry me. :crazy:

 

* All right, a millimetre or so.

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........the flangeless trailing wheels. Obviously unsuccessfully. I was getting hopeful when I saw a Hornby picture with what appeared to be flanged wheels but it was a dupe. They are clever people at Hornby. Surely they don’t need me to remind them of the various suggestions made on the forum. Thin brass frames. No cross member on the rear of the truck to permit the sides to flex outwards on curves. An actual trailing truck instead of a fixed one. About all I can say is that at least the wheels don’t seem to dangle high* above the rail head as on other Hornby offerings. Come on, Mr. Isles! You and your team can do better than this!

 

Hadn't noticed that - VERY disappointing !!!

 

If I can do the necessary with Bulleid Pacifics and Duke of Gloucester, using nothing but basic workbench tools, then Hornby should be roundly condemned if they can't make a model of a prototype that actually had a separate trailing truck behave prototypically.

 

I know - tight radii. Sorry, that won't wash !

 

Make the trailing truck as per prototype, but provide flangeless wheels and a locking / raising screw for those who use toy train curves.

 

In other words, make the model work prototypically for serious modellers, and reserve the compromise for those who compromise on radii.

 

It CAN be done at no additional cost - you just have to want to.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

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brm267-colourrail-image-for-r3555.jpg

 

the crewe ex-works image from Hornby's website

 

To my mind, all the renders are too dark, this image shows it a bit lighter, and the yellow more dull.

 

(Whats on the tender axle box cover closest to the footplate ?)

I would say the red in the photo is spot on. Certainly the Hornby colour does not appear to be any where near! The issue of the flange less fixed trailing wheels surfaces again. A manage iritent on all Hornby Pacifics. Bachmann have manage to solve this!

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Four coaches. All were sprayed with the same colour.....

Good example. Lighting makes some colours look very different.

 

Who can tell exactly what colour they really were when we have not seen a freshly painted LMS/BR Maroon anything for well over 50 years?

Red fades more noticeably than any other colour. Should the models be produced ex-works, with 2 years of fade, 3 years etc?

Any colour photos will have been developed & may not have been exposed perfectly in the first place. I remember getting some photos developed & a friend in the business "They are dreadful, give me the negs & I'll do them properly". The set he did looked very different in colour.

Different batches of paint would have been slightly different, even though they were supposed to have followed an accurate formula.

 

Locos were often cleaned with paraffin. This has a purple hue which would have make the loco look a little different to its true colour.

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Good example. Lighting makes some colours look very different.

 

Who can tell exactly what colour they really were when we have not seen a freshly painted LMS/BR Maroon anything for well over 50 years?

Red fades more noticeably than any other colour. Should the models be produced ex-works, with 2 years of fade, 3 years etc?

Any colour photos will have been developed & may not have been exposed perfectly in the first place. I remember getting some photos developed & a friend in the business "They are dreadful, give me the negs & I'll do them properly". The set he did looked very different in colour.

Different batches of paint would have been slightly different, even though they were supposed to have followed an accurate formula.

 

Locos were often cleaned with paraffin. This has a purple hue which would have make the loco look a little different to its true colour.

6229 in the NRM was very carefully colour matched when cosmetically restored and streamlined 5 or 6 years ago. MR 1000 is I think still in the original paint from its 1959 restoration (though it must have been touched up since), the Midland Spinner and Horwich Crab 13000. All of these repaints were researched and documented by the NRM so I am confident they should provide a full size contemporary reference for the colour. And Bachmanns model of MR 1000 compares well to its prototypes colour to my eye.

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Is the crank on the centre driving wheel correct? It looks to be leaning backwards rather than forwards.

 

Hard to say, though I'd tend to agree with your thoughts comparing the shots of the real thing v the model. Looks to me as though the R/C is in same position on both, but on the model, the wheel cranks are almost bottom dead centre, the real thing seems to be 30-40 degrees from that.

 

What does strike me is the overly round shouldered-ness ( apols to OED!) of the top front corners of the firebox. Looks little different to me,.to the 1977 tooling, which was IMO also too rounded, compared to prototype

 

Ken G

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