Hornby Princess Coronation Class (Duchess)

[farren]

If I remember correctly, and i don't have the time to look it up now. the size of the wheel as a point where speed achieved and power vs flex becomes problem. And the princess Coronation would have probably been better with 6'6" wheels. Instead of the 6'9". It could be in the lms princess royals profile. But will try to find it when time allows

[Brocp]

I know we're saying the Duchess upgrade was long over due but what about the 8f and Black 5 surely candidates for improvement?

I agree, but not before the Princess Royal. The body is bascially the old one from the 70's. I'm actually surprised we got a new Duchess before a Princess.

[robertcwp]

If I remember correctly, and i don't have the time to look it up now. the size of the wheel as a point where speed achieved and power vs flex becomes problem. And the princess Coronation would have probably been better with 6'6" wheels. Instead of the 6'9". It could be in the lms princess royals profile. But will try to find it when time allows

R A Riddles wrote the preface to 'Power of the Duchesses'. He commented that he had suggested the increase in driving wheel diameter to Stanier and wished he had not done so as the Coronations would have been able to do the work with smaller wheels and would have been better starters.

[Fairburn]

Page 107 of the Pictorial Supplement for the "LMS Locomotive Profiles" on the Duchesses has a drawing of it.

Also a double page drawing on pages 66 and 67 in the book "The LMS Duchesses" shows a slightly different 8 wheeled tender, bascially it looks like an exteneded Stanier tender with 14 tonne and 5400 litre capacity.

I'm sure 'LMS Pacifics' by J.W.P. Rowledge has this info too, I'll see if I can dig it out tomorrow.

 

 

Ian

[Flying Pig]

I'm sure 'LMS Pacifics' by J.W.P. Rowledge has this info too, I'll see if I can dig it out tomorrow.

Ian

It does - Appendix 2, p88.

[farren]

It's good to know I hadn't imagined it.

[MGR Hooper!]

What liveries did the LMS Pricess Coronation Class "Sir William Stanier FRS" carry when in service? And the different pony truck on this loco is specific to only this or did a few more carry this pony truck (Ivatt type IIRC)?

 

I would've loved to have seen this loco in BR Blue but haven't been able to find a picture of it. The BR Maroon would be my second choice.

[pH]

What liveries did the LMS Pricess Coronation Class "Sir William Stanier FRS" carry when in service?

 

12/47 (new) to 11/48 – LMS Black

11/48 to 3/51 (approx.) – BR Black

3/51 (approx.) to 5/54 (approx.) – BR Blue

5/54 (approx.) to 5/58 – BR Green

5/58 to withdrawal – BR Red

 

Information from “British Railways Illustrated” August 2001. The “approx.” is explained as “probably into service some weeks later”.

[Hilux5972]

What liveries did the LMS Pricess Coronation Class "Sir William Stanier FRS" carry when in service? And the different pony truck on this loco is specific to only this or did a few more carry this pony truck (Ivatt type IIRC)?

 

I would've loved to have seen this loco in BR Blue but haven't been able to find a picture of it. The BR Maroon would be my second choice.

BR blue? I didn't know the princess coronations ever carried that livery. Would be a very nice look. I love the BR Blue Livery.

[pH]

BR blue? I didn't know the princess coronations ever carried that livery. Would be a very nice look. I love the BR Blue Livery.

 

27 out of the 38 carried it. (same source as previous post)

[Ian Hargrave]

BR blue? I didn't know the princess coronations ever carried that livery. Would be a very nice look. I love the BR Blue Livery.

 

Carried by both Duchesses and Princess Royals until 1953.Incidentally,trainspotters called them either "Duchesses" or more commonly "Semi".This latter referred to the smokebox shape of the defrocked streamliners.Henceforward regardless of subsequent smokebox alteration they were always greeted by that title when approaching Crewe from the North.The cry "Semi !" had all rushing to the best vantage point."Princess Coronation" was too long a mouthful for a young boy spotter in any case,despite what cognoscenti might currently otherwise inform you.You have to be of a certain age to have seen them in everyday use Most have to rely on documentary information/media.

 

Hornby have already modelled several in BR blue.the last being 46241.

[rodger5591]

The Princess Coronations also offer modellers an excellent opportunity to capture many of the experimental liveries of both the LMS and BR.

 

From April 1946, the LMS tested 4 possible liveries: 6221 and 6235 were given unlined satin black, 6222 was given straw-lined satin black and 6234 was given crimson-lined slate grey. The 4th experimental livery was put on Jubilee 5594 (straw-lined crimson). 6221 and 6222 carried their experimental liveries until 1950 when they got BR blue.

 

From May 1948, 6227, 6230, 6231, 6232 and 6241 were given the BR experimental dark blue (most carried it until the early 50s) and 6244 was given the BR experimental light blue with white/black/white lining (carried until 1950), which with some changes, was the basis for the final BR blue. With this livery, 6244 also carried a 0.x version of the lion and wheel emblem, which was quickly rejected as the lion faded into the blue very rapidly and she was soon running with only the wheel and title of the emblem visible (interesting to model!)

 

From Sep 1948, 6226, 6234 and 6246 were also given various early versions of BR lined black, which resulted in the final mixed traffic livery which was adopted in March 1949, as was BR blue for express engines.

 

Uniquely, 6234 wore 2 experimental liveries - it went from 1946 experimental slate grey to 1948 experimental lined black, which it carried until it got BR green (1952)

 

So if you are modelling 1948-50, your fleet could have up to 8 different liveries

 

Source: LMS Locomotive profiles

[sandwich station]

And the different pony truck on this loco is specific to only this or did a few more carry this pony truck (Ivatt type IIRC)?

 

 Only Sir William and the last loco City of Salford had the different pony truck.

 

Incidentally,trainspotters called them either "Duchesses" or more commonly "Semi".This latter referred to the smokebox shape of the defrocked streamliners.Henceforward regardless of subsequent smokebox alteration they were always greeted by that title when approaching Crewe from the North.The cry "Semi !" had all rushing to the best vantage point."Princess Coronation" was too long a mouthful for a young boy spotter in any case,

Wasn't the non streamliners called "Big Lizzie's" by spotters? I think I read that somewhere.

 

 

[Ian Hargrave]

I agree, but not before the Princess Royal. The body is bascially the old one from the 70's. I'm actually surprised we got a new Duchess before a Princess.

Excellent point.The PR is long overdue for a completely new model.Howver it lacks the iconic status of the Duchess in marketing terms.

[Ian Hargrave]

What liveries did the LMS Pricess Coronation Class "Sir William Stanier FRS" carry when in service? And the different pony truck on this loco is specific to only this or did a few more carry this pony truck (Ivatt type IIRC)?

 

I would've loved to have seen this loco in BR Blue but haven't been able to find a picture of it. The BR Maroon would be my second choice.

Colour photography was in its infancy in the early 1950's when many BR 8P locos carried blue livery.It was expensive and hard to come by.You might try Colour Rail.

I still carry a visual memory from August 1952 of Princess Royal 46210 arriving at Shrewsbury on a North to West express and a week later of 46240 on shed at Landudno Junction both in BR blue.

[asmay2002]

 Wasn't the non streamliners called "Big Lizzie's" by spotters? I think I read that somewhere.

 

That was what the enginemen called them.

[sandwich station]

I have a book "The Colour of Steam Volume 6 The LMS Pacific's" which has a colour pic of every loco. Duchess of Athol is in the BR blue. Also has pics of Princess Alexandra, streamlined in LMS blue. Duchess of Devonshire, streamlined in LMS maroon and Duchess of Montrose in LMS maroon. Pics are not that good a quality as book was published in 1988 and pics where 40-50 years old then. 

 

Now in the digital age, I guess they could be remastered.

[sandwich station]

That was what the enginemen called them.

 

Yes you could be right there, getting my wires crossed.

[Mad McCann]

There's a persistent rumour that a couple of the Polmadie based engines received Caley blue that somebody at St Rollox or Perth had found lurking at the back of the stores. I've never been able to substantiate this tale but it would be nice to think it was true.

As to which shade, please allow me to find a bit of hard cover before speculating further... ;-)

 

Dave.

[Brocp]

The Princess Coronations also offer modellers an excellent opportunity to capture many of the experimental liveries of both the LMS and BR.

 

 

From April 1946, the LMS tested 4 possible liveries: 6221 and 6235 were given unlined satin black, 6222 was given straw-lined satin black and 6234 was given crimson-lined slate grey. The 4th experimental livery was put on Jubilee 5594 (straw-lined crimson). 6221 and 6222 carried their experimental liveries until 1950 when they got BR blue.

 

From May 1948, 6227, 6230, 6231, 6232 and 6241 were given the BR experimental dark blue (most carried it until the early 50s) and 6244 was given the BR experimental light blue with white/black/white lining (carried until 1950), which with some changes, was the basis for the final BR blue. With this livery, 6244 also carried a 0.x version of the lion and wheel emblem, which was quickly rejected as the lion faded into the blue very rapidly and she was soon running with only the wheel and title of the emblem visible (interesting to model!)

 

From Sep 1948, 6226, 6234 and 6246 were also given various early versions of BR lined black, which resulted in the final mixed traffic livery which was adopted in March 1949, as was BR blue for express engines.

 

Uniquely, 6234 wore 2 experimental liveries - it went from 1946 experimental slate grey to 1948 experimental lined black, which it carried until it got BR green (1952)

 

So if you are modelling 1948-50, your fleet could have up to 8 different liveries

 

Source: LMS Locomotive profiles

Plus Abercorn in the slate grey had crimson and straw lining only on the right hand side of the loco.

Edited December 4, 2016 by Brocp

[sandwich station]

Here is a link to a pic of Duchess of Athol in BR blue http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page28.htm It is the same pic I have in the book I mentioned.

[rodger5591]

Here is a link to a pic of Duchess of Athol in BR blue http://www.davidheyscollection.com/page28.htm It is the same pic I have in the book I mentioned.

 

I think that is one of the 1948 experimental dark blue variants. Some had the cylinder cloth painted blue and lined out as well.

The final version of BR blue applied from mid-1949 was like this: http://www.southernsteamtrains.com/duchess.htm

 

@Brocp: true that 6254 was lined out on one side only, as was the livery experiment on Jubilee 5594. Perhaps there were really 6 liveries being tested, inlcuding lined and unlined for both crimson and slate grey.

Edited December 4, 2016 by rodger5591

[coachmann]

Don't forget the red engines with yellow and black lining positioned as per the lining on green and black locos rather than perimeter lining as per LMS livery. It wasn't very attractive.

 

The picture below has been posted before. Bob at  Alton Model Centre commissioned it around 20 years ago to be sent to Hornby. I don't think this experimental dark (Prussion) blue was applied to their models though. I did one in 0 gauge for the NRM in the 1980's.

 

Edited December 4, 2016 by coachmann

[farren]

Double checking the final BR blue wasn't two shades tried due to BR trying to stop the bleaching by sun.

 

 

And if Hornby dose a model in the experimental lively as above then I could see someone buying one.

Edited December 4, 2016 by farren

[Ian Hargrave]

Double checking the final BR blue wasn't two shades tried due to BR trying to stop the bleaching by sun.

 

Why would that have been the case ? No the livery applied to all 8P locos and some A3's was after a short period of experimentation with different shades on some individual examples..eg. a shade of deeper blue applied to some A4's in the late 40's.Unfortunately it did not wear well.