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USERS MAY EXPERIENCE SLOW PERFORMANCE, THIS IS DUE TO A DRIVE ISSUE WHICH IS BEING INVESTIGATED.

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I could accept the bay being a loading dock instead, there is plenty of operational interest for passenger services without it.  That being said, if I did want it as a bay how would it be arranged?  Coming directly off the running line would be my best guess but it is just a guess.

 

Regarding the gradients, they are for accessing the fiddle yards, the idea being to have a hidden level that turns the layout into a dogbone with storage loops.  I can see three ways of arranging the non-scenic sections and have done rough outlines for each.  The first is what I originally had in mind, drop to a hidden level with the drawbacks being steepish gradients and difficulty of access.  The second is to steal a little extra space and have the two running lines meet turning the whole thing into a tail chaser, the drawbacks there being no return loops which is a feature I want, and a lack of storage space as it has to fit next to the scenic section rather than under it.  The final is a mix of the two with the running lines crossing over to extend the gradients, this eases the gradients to about 1:100 but at the cost of having to avoid collisions on the crossover, it also doesn't fix the problem of accessing storage that is under the main layout.  Diagrams below:

 

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Tim

 

 

Edited by Coder Tim
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It's a good suggestion but I can't use up that much of the room.

 

It did give me an idea though: if I shrink the station and put it on the inside (where the blue lines are on your suggestion) I can put storage on the outside.  I've had a go at this and it seems to work better than the other ideas but I'm still not completely happy with it.  I moved the carriage sidings to the fiddle yard portion of the main lines because they basically are a scenic fiddle yard, albeit one limited to ECS.  I could link the carriage sidings to one set of storage sidings with the line shown in green which would give me more room to store "away" trains but would muddy the carriage siding operations a little.  I'm also thinking about moving the carriage sidings back to where they were and having the far side of the running lines be hidden, I think that would be better aesthetically but would reduce the length of visible running line.  Will have to have a play about with it but this is what it looks like so far:

post-26281-0-75596100-1481657737_thumb.png

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Sorry I wasn't very helpful in my comment about the bay. I then had a look through my books and found a passenger bay at Gloucester that was arranged as yours - but this could only be used for departures; not only from the layout but also the provision of FPLs and signalling, a passenger train couldn't run into it - only empty stock.

 

I like your latest plan - can you squeeze in the trailing connection for the loading dock that you had before (using the 3-way that also gives access to the goods shed)? And also the lay-by siding on the other side? Then you'd have something completely Midland.

 

Were there any stations in the Aire valley with buildings on the overbridge? Quite a few examples further south - you could always invoke rebuilding c. 1910.

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No worries, I appreciate the help. Thanks for looking that up, I'm happy to leave it for NPCS but it's nice to have the option of a departure bay if I need it.

 

I took the trailing connection with the three way out because I couldn't get it to fit with the geometry available but I think I might be able to by changing some other curves slightly so will give it another go. The lay-by I just plain forgot, should be fairly easy to add.

 

Keighley on the Airedale line had (and still has) the station building on the over bridge which is what inspired me, both because the prototype is still there for reference and because fond memories of the KWVR as a kid are one of the reasons I'm interested in this hobby.

 

Will post an updated plan when I have one, but have a busy few days so it might not be until the weekend.

 

Thanks for all the help,

 

Tim

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I've had time to play about with the layout and I'm a lot happier with it now.  I managed to fit the trailing connection to the bay and the lay-by siding.  I've also managed to add the return loops I want but at the cost of some compromise: the southern return loop will have to be a lift out section for the cupboard door and the norther return loop is quite short and forced a larger s-bend in the station than I wanted, my plan is to cover that with the station building and the ramps down to the platforms to give the impression that the line continues straight without looping back on itself.  In the diagram everything inside the area to the right of the road overbridge including the northern return loop and the end of the carriage siding will be hidden by removable scenery.  There will almost certainly be some storage loops on the hidden line to the southern return loop.  I'm still not fully happy with the storage situation, will probably have to adjust that and see what can be done.  Thoughts and/or suggestions?

 

Tim

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Sorry I wasn't very helpful in my comment about the bay. I then had a look through my books and found a passenger bay at Gloucester that was arranged as yours - but this could only be used for departures; not only from the layout but also the provision of FPLs and signalling, a passenger train couldn't run into it - only empty stock.

 

I like your latest plan - can you squeeze in the trailing connection for the loading dock that you had before (using the 3-way that also gives access to the goods shed)? And also the lay-by siding on the other side? Then you'd have something completely Midland.

 

Were there any stations in the Aire valley with buildings on the overbridge? Quite a few examples further south - you could always invoke rebuilding c. 1910.

Two stations which were local to me when a young lad, were Armley (Canal Road) and Kirkstall, both at the Leeds end of the Aire Valley line. Armley was on a long stretch of four track main line and was a short distance from the power station where I started my working life.

Sorry if this has already been discussed, I have only just come on to this thread.

It was my ambition to make a model of Armley station, in a very much shortened form, but events did not allow it. The station buildings were very small but there were two large canopies on the platforms, even in my day. In fact there were two station buildings on opposite side of the road (Canal Road). I presume the original Leeds and Bradford building on the south side of the bridge, which was used as a goods station, I think. The building in use in my day was presumably built when the lines were widened, but I cannot recollect when this took place. I can remember the yard, on the south side of Canal Road, being shunted by an LNER 0-6-2 tank, could be an N2 class.

This would be about 1949 ish

Derek

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Can you not use helices at each end to gain lower level staging roads? I can't see that they would use any more space than the dog bones you previously drew and might permit sensible vertical separation without unworkable gradients. I would arrange them with upper level connections at the rear of the layout as this allows the greatest possible radii for the main line and might permit a more flowing alignment.

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Thanks for the info MrKirtley, I was thinking about Calverly and Rodley, not far from Armley and Kirkstall as a prototype but I'm moving further down the line for inspiration now.

 

Helices were a thought but they would need too excessive a gradient to fit in the space I have.

 

I took the half-station idea and drew a bunch of ideas based on it but I couldn't get anything I liked.  Fundamentally I think the problem is that having the line loop back on itself feels odd.  Something that I've been avoiding is a lifting section across the door because I felt that having to set up the layout every time would make me less likely to use it.  I've set the constraints that it needs to be a single step to put it in place and that the door should still open so I can duck-under for the odd vital cuppa when necessary and I think I can live with it.  The upside is that I've come up with a plan that flows much better, encroaches on the room less, and operates better.  I've also changed my prototype inspiration to Skipton, this way I can have the full size expresses I want to run legitimately stop at the station as both the Thames-Clyde and Thames-Forth called here and they were the biggest passenger trains to run on the Airedale lines, though I'm going to upgrade their locos to A4s and Duchesses.  I have had to add a gradient back in but it's only 1 in 90 so it shouldn't be a problem.

 

As ever I'm looking for general feedback on anything I could improve or anything I've done wrong.  One specific issue is trap points, I know Skipton had one on the through platform but according to the Skipton South signal box diagram there wasn't one on the bay, am I misreading the diagram or is it not necessary?

 

Thanks everyone, diagram of the new plan:

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And the hidden line that goes to the south storage / return loops:

post-26281-0-09851600-1482858751_thumb.png

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  • 2 weeks later...

Still wasn't happy with it and still think it's too big so I went back to the original idea which was supposed to be a small station near a terminus because I didn't think I had space for the terminus itself.  Casting about for ideas I've come up with something that fits ok and is based loosely on St Pancras with added carriage sidings so I have the operational interest of forming up trains from ECS and a parcels depot to add some NPCS into the mix.  What does everyone think?  It would let me do a bit of operations (forming a train) then a bit of watching trains go by (run out and back) which is the operating pattern I'm looking for and it would let me run the ten coach expresses I want, it also fits the room much better (especially if the return loop folds down).  Also, I've finally worked out how to edit the thread title.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I think I've been making it too complicated ever since I decided to use more space, the last couple of attempts definitely got out of hand.  I've decided to go back to the original idea: a smallish ex-midland through station with a fiddle yard at each end.  The latest plan is basically the medium sized typical midland station that Compound2632 drew for me.  This time I've tried building it in Templot to see what it looks like with custom pointwork and it definitely flows better than anything I've had before.  Thoughts and opinions?  One problem I can see is that to access the goods loop from the south end a train would have to run into the south fiddle yard and then reverse back onto the scene, I can't see much I can do about that in the space I have available.  The other thing I'm not sure about is through portions, where would they be kept at a station like this?  I'm assuming there is a junction just off-scene although I haven't decided at which end yet.  If the junction is to the north then any through portions could be kept in the lay-by, does that sound reasonable or would they have to have been left next to a platform?  If so I might have to add a bay for that purpose.

 

Thanks for all the help so far

 

Tim

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  • 2 months later...

Been playing with putting the station on the straight and the yard on a very exaggerated curve, I think it works better.  The curve through the goods section is 4 foot radius so it shouldn't look too bad.  Thoughts or opinions?  Do people agree it's an improvement over the previous attempt? Also managed to get hold of some copper clad strip and gauges to experiment with building some points

 

 

post-26281-0-08785000-1490300524_thumb.png

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Been playing with putting the station on the straight and the yard on a very exaggerated curve, I think it works better.  The curve through the goods section is 4 foot radius so it shouldn't look too bad.  Thoughts or opinions?  Do people agree it's an improvement over the previous attempt? Also managed to get hold of some copper clad strip and gauges to experiment with building some points

 

That does seem to me to have a very Midlandish flavour. I played around with something similar for an 00 garage layout - yet to be built! Having the goods shed on the inside of the curve helps to keep the length of the goods shed loop down to manageable proportions. The only area I feel still looks a bit untypical is the arrangement of the dock sidings with platforms in between. I think it would be more usual for the siding nearest the running lines to have a cattle dock and end-loading, as you've shown, with the siding further from the running lines being either a short end-loading siding, or possibly vice-versa. At places with a lot of cattle traffic, this second siding might run down the other side of the cattle dock (Bakewell for instance). These sidings wouldn't be used for parcels traffic, which would be dealt with at the passenger platforms - ditto milk in churns. But you say "ex-Midland" so I'm sure you could justify some specific traffic that had developed e.g. during WW2.

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Thanks, I'm glad it's looking suitably Midlandish.  I've shortened the second dock siding as suggested, would it make sense for this to have a dual use as a secondary access for the cattle pens (probably sheep in Airedale) and as an end loading siding with a ramp up to it?  Or would it be more likely to be end loading with no ramp so that carts etc could be backed up to it and be at the same level as the wagons?  I'm happy to have parcels / milk be handled at the platforms, I just had them at the dock sidings because I didn't know where else to put them, does handling them at the platforms mean they wouldn't detach from their trains but be (un)loaded while the train waited?

 

Thanks for all the pointers so far

 

Tim

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Just a minor point, and operationally i don't know if it would add anything, but looking at the latest plan i can't help but feel there should be a trailing crossing on the mainlines at the south end of the goods yard. The only connection between the 2 mainlines at the moment is at the station using the single slip, given the size of the location it may prove beneficial to have a second option.

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Just a minor point, and operationally i don't know if it would add anything, but looking at the latest plan i can't help but feel there should be a trailing crossing on the mainlines at the south end of the goods yard. The only connection between the 2 mainlines at the moment is at the station using the single slip, given the size of the location it may prove beneficial to have a second option.

 

The layout as drawn is typically Midland, the additional crossover would be untypical and operationally unnecessary. As it stands, the goods yard can be accessed from either up or down lines (for convenience let's suppose clockwise is down as it's heading north) - my understanding is that this would be running right past (the limit being the starter or outer home signal) and setting back. As the goods shed stands on its own loop, it can be shunted by either up or down trains. Only up trains can conveniently shunt the bay sidings and coal sidings - the additional crossover wouldn't change this. If a train is to reverse, this can also be done by setting back into the goods yard and running round via the down line and existing trailing crossing / single slip. The Midland wouldn't have repeated this layout ad nauseam if it hadn't been efficient!

 

That said, I recall reading in a Midland Record or LMS Journal of a location on the Leicester - Ashby line where it was necessary to run round by leaving the train and running forward to the next station to use the crossover there - presumably traffic had outgrown the length of the goods loop.

 

Signalling: I think the down (inner) home would be in the 10-foot way just before the connection from the refuge siding and the down starter (outer home) would be a train length beyond the crossover - if the entry to the north fiddle yard is a bridge, probably beyond this (allowing for sighting); if it's a tunnel (cf. Cromford) things get a bit awkward. (In fact at Cromford the goods yard was a good way south of the passenger station and tunnel and on the other side of the Derwent, so the problem didn't arise.) In the up (anti-clockwise) direction, the home would be in a similar location to the down starter - in Midland days, quite probably on the other side of the same post, given the curve! The up starter would be a train-length beyond the trailing connection to the goods yard, near the tunnel mouth entrance to the south fiddle yard. Again in Midland days this might have the down distant on the other side of the post. Midland signalling might well have survived until the mid-50s, to be replaced by standard LMS tubular posts, with the distants getting their own posts or perhaps even becoming electi lights? So you probably only need to model two signals: the up home and down starter.

 

The classic Midland signal box - probably two 10ft bays here like the Ratio model - could be either on the down side, tucked between the refuge siding trap and the platform, or on the up side, next to the pair of 3-ways. I suspect that being on the outside of the curve might be preferred for sighting?

 

You can tell I've thought through this layout on and off an one day may get sorted out to build it - I look forward to seeing your version take shape sooner! For me, it offers an ideal combination of watching the trains go by (you'll have Jubilee or two?) and a spot of gentle shunting. (a 3F? - but nothing smaller than a 4F in N yet?) 

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  • 1 month later...

Sorry for the late reply, I sometimes make a mental note to do something and think that I've already done it!

 

Thanks a lot for the further info Compound2632, the signalling in particular was helpful as it's an area I know very little about.  I agree about the combination of watching trains go by and shunting, there'll definitely be at least one Jubilee (Bahamas was in regular service on the KWVR when I was a kid), I'm also planning on having some form of Mid-day Scott as I love main line expresses and I'll justify it as a small station on a big route (plus rule 1).  As to freight I have a 4F which might have to stand in unless Union Mills still do the smaller locos, thanks for the heads-up on that Flying Pig, I'd never heard of them before and will definitely be sending off for a catalog.

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