London Festival of Railway Modelling, Alexandra Palace, 25/26 March 2017

[40F]

well I found it quite disappointing compared to pervious shows. Whilst there were some lovely layouts (for example, Towcester, Leysdown, Fen Drove, Blackwells Brewery, North Bridge, Kirkmellington, Kettlewell and others) there were some pretty crude and wasteful ones. Some layouts needed no introduction - Copenhagen Fields and Canada Road.

 

I don't do continental stuff much but since there was so much of it, I had a look. Chelma Canyon and Prospect Point were very nicely modeled and were running well.

 

I will get shot down on here but Crewelisle isn't a premier league exhibition layout but in fariness, it was running trains which some others seemed to struggle with.

 

The Freemo American layout was a total waste of time, probably 150ft of running line and if you were lucky, you might see one train moving and a switcher dithering. Simply not good enough and the lack of spectators watching it all day tells its own story. I overhead one of the operators telling a member of the public that they had been robbed of 2ft of space by BRM/MRC and they didn't have enough operators to run it!!! Blinking Heck, it was the biggest layout in the show and to blame a missing 2ft board is ridiculous. If they can't get operators then why are they turning up to a major show where people pay a huge sum to see trains run.

 

Lancaster Green Ayre looked like it was built by school kids in a class project, and not sure that would grace the conference league, scenery was unfinished, some places already showing signs of wear and damage and the station building had a 10 degree list. The less said about the catenary the better.

 

Binns Road isn't my cup of tea but it drew a decent crowd and worked which some of the above should take lessons from.

 

Come on MRC, your standards are usually so much higher.

 

On the plus side, the weather was great and sitting outside in the sun with a pint whilst looking down over little London village and its pointy topped buildings was very relaxing.

 

 

When will your free running and perfect layout be ready for exhibiting ?

[john new]

well I found it quite disappointing compared to pervious shows. Whilst there were some lovely layouts (for example, Towcester, Leysdown, Fen Drove, Blackwells Brewery, North Bridge, Kirkmellington, Kettlewell and others) there were some pretty crude and wasteful ones. Some layouts needed no introduction - Copenhagen Fields and Canada Road.

 

I don't do continental stuff much but since there was so much of it, I had a look. Chelma Canyon and Prospect Point were very nicely modeled and were running well.

 

I will get shot down on here but Crewelisle isn't a premier league exhibition layout but in fariness, it was running trains which some others seemed to struggle with.

 

The Freemo American layout was a total waste of time, probably 150ft of running line and if you were lucky, you might see one train moving and a switcher dithering. Simply not good enough and the lack of spectators watching it all day tells its own story. I overhead one of the operators telling a member of the public that they had been robbed of 2ft of space by BRM/MRC and they didn't have enough operators to run it!!! Blinking Heck, it was the biggest layout in the show and to blame a missing 2ft board is ridiculous. If they can't get operators then why are they turning up to a major show where people pay a huge sum to see trains run.

 

Lancaster Green Ayre looked like it was built by school kids in a class project, and not sure that would grace the conference league, scenery was unfinished, some places already showing signs of wear and damage and the station building had a 10 degree list. The less said about the catenary the better.

 

Binns Road isn't my cup of tea but it drew a decent crowd and worked which some of the above should take lessons from.

 

Come on MRC, your standards are usually so much higher.

 

On the plus side, the weather was great and sitting outside in the sun with a pint whilst looking down over little London village and its pointy topped buildings was very relaxing.

 

I think the above is wrong.

 

1) A good range of trade and Society stands, not everyone attends solely to view layouts.

2) A good cross section of layout types, as in big, small, straight, circular, etc.

3) A good cross section of themes - as in nationality and eras

4) A range of quality - personally I see it AS ESSENTIAL for organisers to have one or two layouts that look like a beginner moving on from a train set could achieve something if they get involved.

 

Finally a general observation, not everyone goes to an exhibition for the same reasons, for example I like researching the project, making things and operating. I look at layouts for inspiration in ideas not just to watch passing trains. Copenhagen Fields has trains on it, but are people actually looking at those or the stunning vista?

Edited March 28, 2017 by john new

[45156]

In response to Geoffwinter's dismissive post about various layouts, I can only respond about the one layout which I know from those on show, and that it Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

My comments are based on having set up and dismantled it and also of operating it.   So I have been up close, and spent more time with this layout than many of the casual observers at an exhibition.  It is made up of about 14 boards.

 

It is, and will be for years to come, work in progress.  The layout owner, Jamie, is working hard to ensure accuracy on the various buildings which need to be erected.  To that end, he has received much useful information from Lancaster residents, and also a number of ex Green Ayre staff.  Many of these commented on the accuracy of the model as it now stands to the prototype locations.   His approach of using mock ups for the others until the models can be made accurately has a lot of merit, and does not beg the question of "that doesn't look right".

 

The OHLE appears to me to be 100% accurate to the prototype, and to that end, I have also seen the original MR plans of the masts etc. which Jamie has on loan, and have been used to make the etches.

 

The era and scale mean that there is no possibility of running RTR, or using ready to plant buildings.  All of the buildings are scratch built, and the rolling stock and locos are all scratch built or kit built. 

 

The layout is analogue, which does mean that there will be more wiring (I've seen inside the panels and under the boards) than DCC, but DCC would be a non starter for a number of reasons. 

[Mike Arnold]

well I found it quite disappointing compared to pervious shows. Whilst there were some lovely layouts (for example, Towcester, Leysdown, Fen Drove, Blackwells Brewery, North Bridge, Kirkmellington, Kettlewell and others) there were some pretty crude and wasteful ones. Some layouts needed no introduction - Copenhagen Fields and Canada Road.

 

I don't do continental stuff much but since there was so much of it, I had a look. Chelma Canyon and Prospect Point were very nicely modeled and were running well.

 

I will get shot down on here but Crewelisle isn't a premier league exhibition layout but in fariness, it was running trains which some others seemed to struggle with.

 

The Freemo American layout was a total waste of time, probably 150ft of running line and if you were lucky, you might see one train moving and a switcher dithering. Simply not good enough and the lack of spectators watching it all day tells its own story. I overhead one of the operators telling a member of the public that they had been robbed of 2ft of space by BRM/MRC and they didn't have enough operators to run it!!! Blinking Heck, it was the biggest layout in the show and to blame a missing 2ft board is ridiculous. If they can't get operators then why are they turning up to a major show where people pay a huge sum to see trains run.

 

Lancaster Green Ayre looked like it was built by school kids in a class project, and not sure that would grace the conference league, scenery was unfinished, some places already showing signs of wear and damage and the station building had a 10 degree list. The less said about the catenary the better.

 

Binns Road isn't my cup of tea but it drew a decent crowd and worked which some of the above should take lessons from.

 

Come on MRC, your standards are usually so much higher.

 

On the plus side, the weather was great and sitting outside in the sun with a pint whilst looking down over little London village and its pointy topped buildings was very relaxing.

Geoff,

 

As an operator on the American FreeMo layout I would like to offer some insight from our perspective.

 

Firstly your comment about the two feet was taken totally out of context - we simply had difficulty squeezing in the final leg of the branch line which could not be delivered until 8.00 am Saturday.  The person who made the comment was the said module owner.  We planned ahead by siting the entire layout hard against the barrier line at the other end.

 

Secondly operators. Two were unfortunately unable to attend at the last minute due to illness.  We had no reserves - perhaps we should have planned better on that but there is a limit on the number of passes that, in fairness, Warners/MRC could allow us.

 

The whole layout suffered a complete control system meltdown on Saturday which meant we could not run any trains at all for about an hour. Anyone enquiring about the lack of running trains was apprised of the situation.  We as operators were as frustrated as you were, albeit from a different perspective.  Many of us had spent hours not only getting our contributions ready but also setting it up and making sure it was running perfectly. We started set up at 11.45am Friday on delivery and successfully completed it all including testing all tracks and setting up the trains to run by 6.30pm.  At 8.00am it was still working and was with the additional branch line modules shortly thereafter. The pressure on our technical guy to not only identify the problem but also find a solution (luckily he had invested in a booster available only direct from the manufacturer) was immense.  We as owners/operators only get a chance to do this kind of set up (75 ft by 25 ft) once in a blue moon and please trust me when I say we have invested far more in the successful running of the set up than anyone else.  Our tekkie was a true hero.  Other problems like dry solder joints and board movement are symptoms of time and the atmospheric conditions of the hall. We cannot, I think, plan for that.  Operator error is something else of course! DCC is very unforgiving if you run a set of points against you.

 

The last member of our crew got to bed at 1.00am Monday (not checked with the guy from Devon); many of us were still putting away our contributions to the set up yesterday - I spent two hours repairing the gears on two very expensive locomotives that failed running around the main part of the set up.

 

We all like to see trains run - some at scale speeds and others at somewhat greater speeds.  Each to their own.  We try to cover as many bases as we can with what we put on display.  We hoped that the quality of the modelling would entertain while waiting for a train.  Notwithstanding Ian Lampkin's comments previously about FreeMo being an operator experience (which it is at FreeMo events where the public are not invited), our FreeMo modules were there to show what individuals can achieve in a small space.  Seven individual set ups within the branch lines are operated as switching layouts at home.  But bringing them all together from Essex, Kent, Sussex, Surrey and Devon means that we cannot truly test them all out together until they get to the venue.

 

As an operator I know that at times there were up to four trains operating simultaneously on the branch - there is testimony in numerous videos now on YouTube to that fact. I am just sorry you found our offering a waste of a large space. We put in so much effort to get this there and run it well.  However, your points are not lost on us - there are some aspects we can take away and incorporate in planning for the next time.

 

None of us invests all our time and money to waste the opportunity to entertain but sometimes circumstances dictate otherwise.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Mike Arnold

[The Stationmaster]

I enjoyed seeing this layout, it was of an unusual subject and was well modelled. It certainly ran well.  One point I'd like to make was that there was a very good description in the guide of why this subject was chosen, and the technical details of the layout.  That was very engaging with your viewers. 

 

Apart from which it had some of the best model railway sound I have yet come across - not too loud (a major plus in my book) and actually 100% fitting what was happening with the right sounds at the right times. What really impressed me too was that if you were near the action you heard the sound - if you were at the other end of the layout you didn't hear it which added to the impression of openness and distance.  Overall an object lesson in how to add sound to a layout.

[exet1095]

You have just lost me with that statement.

 

Terry.

 

Sorry to lose you.  If it helps to clarify...

 

The vehicle on the right of your top picture, 12KK41, is a Fuchs six-wheeled AFV, used for Chemical Recce on operation Telic.  It just happens to be the one of the 11 in the Army that was used by our Squadron back in 2003.

 

Warriors  (the AFV on the left)are used by armoured infantry battalions - and we did not spend any time parked-up in their company, although we did get rather close to a the Duke of Wellington's Regiment's vehicles whilst they were having a fairly major firefight.  The Land Rover Wolf in the second picture resembles most of ours, except all of them had twin VHF radio fits, and therefore had TUAAM boxes and antennae on each wing.  Additionally, we had HF antennae on the bracket you see next to the driver's side of the wagon.  We named ours after our favourite pubs - mine was the "John O'Gaunt at Horsebridge" - something that got me a couple of free pints on my return!

 

Paul

[The Stationmaster]

In response to Geoffwinter's dismissive post about various layouts, I can only respond about the one layout which I know from those on show, and that it Lancaster Green Ayre.

 

My comments are based on having set up and dismantled it and also of operating it.   So I have been up close, and spent more time with this layout than many of the casual observers at an exhibition.  It is made up of about 14 boards.

 

It is, and will be for years to come, work in progress.  The layout owner, Jamie, is working hard to ensure accuracy on the various buildings which need to be erected.  To that end, he has received much useful information from Lancaster residents, and also a number of ex Green Ayre staff.  Many of these commented on the accuracy of the model as it now stands to the prototype locations.   His approach of using mock ups for the others until the models can be made accurately has a lot of merit, and does not beg the question of "that doesn't look right".

 

The OHLE appears to me to be 100% accurate to the prototype, and to that end, I have also seen the original MR plans of the masts etc. which Jamie has on loan, and have been used to make the etches.

 

The era and scale mean that there is no possibility of running RTR, or using ready to plant buildings.  All of the buildings are scratch built, and the rolling stock and locos are all scratch built or kit built. 

 

The layout is analogue, which does mean that there will be more wiring (I've seen inside the panels and under the boards) than DCC, but DCC would be a non starter for a number of reasons. 

 

Speaking as somebody who actually travelled to Lancaster Green Ayre on an electric train (albeit only from 'the other station' in Lancaster) the one thing it very definitely does is capture the look and detail of the place and the overhead system.  It is unfinished and there is clearly much still to be done - that is obvious to even the most casual of observers who actually look at the layout with their eyes open and it is equally obvious (if you open your eyes) that some very skilled modellers are involved in developing the layout.

 

And like '45156' I'm totally flumoxed about the comment regarding the catenary - which actually looks like the stuff which was there.  Presumably the 'problem' with it is that it doesn't look like the stuff on the WCML, or the ECML, or even the GWML - which should hardly come as a surprise if you bother to think about it for a couple of minutes.

[Ravenser]

Speaking as somebody who actually travelled to Lancaster Green Ayre on an electric train (albeit only from 'the other station' in Lancaster) the one thing it very definitely does is capture the look and detail of the place and the overhead system.  It is unfinished and there is clearly much still to be done - that is obvious to even the most casual of observers who actually look at the layout with their eyes open and it is equally obvious (if you open your eyes) that some very skilled modellers are involved in developing the layout.

 

And like '45156' I'm totally flumoxed about the comment regarding the catenary - which actually looks like the stuff which was there.  Presumably the 'problem' with it is that it doesn't look like the stuff on the WCML, or the ECML, or even the GWML - which should hardly come as a surprise if you bother to think about it for a couple of minutes.

 

The problem with the catenary was that some of the masts were visibly wonky - though it's a layout under construction, and they will no doubt be straightened out when the actual wires go up. I'm sure the design is accurate to the MR's high-tension OHLE

[black and decker boy]

Missed that - must look harder next time!

There are so many Warners websites for the show, it may not be visible on all

 

This is where I found it

 

http://www.warners-shows.co.uk/indoor-shows/the-london-festival-of-railway-modelling/the-london-festival-of-railway-modelling-trade-plan/

 

Cheers

[sharris]

There are so many Warners websites for the show, it may not be visible on all

 

This is where I found it

 

http://www.warners-shows.co.uk/indoor-shows/the-london-festival-of-railway-modelling/the-london-festival-of-railway-modelling-trade-plan/

 

Cheers

 

That'll be why - it looks like the page was intended for exhibitors rather than visitors.

[adrianmc]

I enjoy the mix of layouts, though some don't really interest me, especially the earlier eras. However, I did enjoy Leysdown!

 

 

Glad you enjoyed the layout - it was its first time out in three years!

 

Considerable time was spent in the run up to the show correcting a few problems, putting in the signals and adding a few details here and there. 

 

As it has a fairly simple track plan the operators were quite pleasantly surprised at how much satisfaction could be gained by running the three trains - two passenger, one pick-up goods - on the layout. The sound fitted locomotives and background seagulls/waves, pitched at a suitably quiet and subtle level, we hope added to the atmosphere.

 

 

[bertiedog]

Good show, good trade support, what more do you want? The problem comes from preaching to the already converted, who are of course only interested in their own area of interest......ever shown a Southern layout to a GWR enthusiast?..

 

A general point is lack of motion on some layouts, but this is best addressed with signage on the layout explaining the nature of the operations involved. Too many layouts still do not have enough information placed before the viewer.

 

In  general, and there are exceptions, the bigger the layout on display, the more it should feature general display running, the more dedicated operation type of layout should be smaller, and give a more intimate look at the niceties of operation to exact timetables or fast clocks.

 

You cannot please every viewer, nothing can, but it is the non enthusiast who can get very bored with a, to his eyes, dead layout. The whole exhibition scene is just that, an exhibition for the general public, as well as the experienced modeller, and it is up to the organisers to find out what is offered before the show, and blend in a mix of layout types that will entertain and please, with proper signage, PC presentations, and if possible a layout "host" who  can deal with queries on the spot with the larger layouts.

 

The trade side was well represented generally, there were a few very plain displays, but these are after all, very specialist suppliers selling to a fixed market. Personally I still think the biggest RTR suppliers do not  show enough items, or have stands that are class leaders. I know the costs come into it, but they could be better than some who look like an up market boot fair sales point.

 

Stephen.

[newbryford]

 

 

In  general, and there are exceptions, the bigger the layout on display, the more it should feature general display running, the more dedicated operation type of layout should be smaller, and give a more intimate look at the niceties of operation to exact timetables or fast clocks.

 

 

Stephen.

 

Something to bear in mind for those that are impatient.

 

A large-ish double track roundy-roundy will inevitably have a delay before the next train appears.

Although the operators can work together so that as one disappears off scene, another shortly appears from the that end travelling the other way.

 

However, it often looks good with two trains passing on the main line with the consequent delay until the next appears.

 

My new layout is 24 feet by 10 - it can take quite some time before the next appears on the same line, as one train has to travel round to the storage yard, stop, select the next road and train and drive it round to the front.

 

Until anyone has exhibited a layout, I don't think they can fully grasp the full picture of loading, setting up, testing, operating, dismantling and unloading over a number of days. All whilst (in my case) trying to manage 6-8 people to be in the right place at the right time before/during the weekend that are freely giving up their time to try and entertain the visitors.

 

I rarely try to use the "show us what you can do?" as a retort, but in the case of a poster a few pages back.................

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

Edited March 28, 2017 by newbryford

[t-b-g]

As a general rule, the bigger and more complex a layout is the more challenging it is to keep something running on all parts of a layout becomes. In my view this is why The Gresley Beat always has such a big crowd at shows. 4 separate but easy to operate circuits plus the carriage sidings give many opportunities to see several trains moving at the same time. It is busier than any prototype that I know and in that respect probably unrealistic but that doesn't stop it pleasing the crowds.

 

Operation on a layout means many things to many people but I tend to agree that interesting, prototypical and realistic operation is something that many exhibition layouts fall down on. Whether it is technical limitations, lack of knowledge or laziness, perhaps all these combined I don't know but many a highly attractive layout is let down by it.

 

Edited for spelling.

Edited March 28, 2017 by t-b-g

[KevinWalsh]

Just my 2p worth,

 

I always enjoy going to ally pally show, it's a chance for me to catch up with friends who are spread around the country and see a good mix of layouts (from the work-in-progress to the sublimely finished top drawer, all of which have their place in the hobby).

 

The sheer size of Essex Beltlines blew me away and my first thought on seeing the fiddle yard was that my bank balance would have a major coronary trying to fill a FY of a similar size.

 

I hope that when I/we finish building the new UMRC 'N' gauge layout (see link at bottom of my signature) there might be the possibility of an invite.

 

It was also rather nice to have a sociable chat with Mr Y when he was outside having a crafty burn

[Andy Y]

Personally I still think the biggest RTR suppliers do not  show enough items, or have stands that are class leaders. 

 

How much bigger do you want the Bachmann stand to be and what didn't they have on display?

[newbryford]

 what didn't they have on display?

 

158s......

 

Coat, hat etc................

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Andy Y]

I'm going to bring a 'slap' button in soon.

[AndrewC]

I'm going to bring a 'slap' button in soon.

Groan button first.

[Orange Cat]

Glad you enjoyed the layout - it was its first time out in three years!

 

 

 

 

I have long thought Leysdown would make an attractive subject for a model. It seems I was right. 

[radsolution]

I went to the show with a couple of friends.

 

We were all of the opinion that many of the layouts looked superb, but were marred by the abysmal operation.

On more than one occasion we stood for several minutes and waited - and absolutely nothing moved anywhere.

 

I know some layouts operate to prototypical timetables, but this is taking it to extremes.

 

We all want to admire the fantastic scenery and workmanship, but we also want to watch model trains....

[45156]

I once assisted with an exhibition which was more geared to the public than the enthusiast fraternity.  Some layouts were roundy roundy, but one was a GWR BLT, which was set up and operated by one man.  The main features were the layout - which was scenically beautiful, the stock - a 0 4 2 tank and an auto trailer, and a pannier with a few goods vehicles, the owner's deck chair, and a clock with the words "next train will run at" - and that was advanced by about 40 minutes, train ran out and back, then clock was advanced again, and operator settled down.

 

Needless to say, the paying public just walked past unless they were actually there when something moved.  Rsundy roundys saw attention all day.  So I can see the point.

However, from what I've read here, and elsewhere, some of the layouts were suffering with electrical issues, and of course, no electric feed = no trains running.  I can sympathise with that as it is the most frustrating thing in the world to test, test, test, set up, test, then wallop.  No more movement.

[Huw Griffiths]

How much bigger do you want the Bachmann stand to be and what didn't they have on display?

- US outline On30 - especially the trams, domed clerestory coaches / combines and 0-4-0 Diesels.

 

- Returns stand - to visitors familiar with shows up to 2015, no major show seems complete without the Bachmann scrum and associated chance for people's rucksacks and steel toecapped boots to get a serious workout.

 

Seriously though, the lack of "returns" stands has been commented about in the past - as has their quoted reason for this (not as many returns).

 

A number of people will also have things they'd like to see reinstated, or added, to their range (preferably at affordable prices):

 

- "Junior" and "Underground Ernie" ranges (or some other toy range using the same motor chassis).

 

- AGEIR 60 ton boxcab (a number of people in the US have been agitating for this - and it could be built to use the UE multiple unit chassis - fit a double ended motor and all wheel drive would also be available).

 

In practice, of course, it's doubtful if they could ever please everyone. Even if they could, stand space at shows doesn't come cheap (neither does venue hire), so there's always going to be a balancing act.

 

 

There's also the fact that, at any show, not everyone will be buying RTR. I certainly wasn't at "Ally Pally". I'm one of those show visitors who intend to something really shocking - that's right - BUILD SOMETHING!!

 

I know - some people probably need to lie down in a darkened room after reading that - and they probably expect me to wash my mouth out with soap. We'll, I'm not going to.

 

And, on that bombshell, it's time to end. Thanks for reading. Goodbye.

 

 

Huw.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Just to repeat (more or less) something already posted.

 

If you are going to run a big exhibition like this, it is only viable with a large percentage of attendees being the "general public". The choice of layouts has to reflect that or they won't come next time. Included in that is some layouts that are perhaps less than perfect but do give these guys the impression that railway modelling is something that they can do - not just for some small elite of highly-skilled folk. But nor do you want all the layouts to be like that, because they also want to see the best that can be done. It sounds to me as though the MRC guys did a pretty good job in selecting a wide variety.

 

If you don't want to see these more "basic" layouts, stick to visiting the specialist shows such as Scaleforum, Railwells and the EMGS.

[bertiedog]

How much bigger do you want the Bachmann stand to be and what didn't they have on display?

Number one, I did not mention the size of the stands at all, nor any maker in particular, all I say is that as major suppliers you would expect superb displays of the engines and stock both together and individually for all items currently made, in typical consists, and if space allows, the trains running on a well finished layout, which most do have.

 

Most of the commercial items had very minimal signage about the product displayed, and some items had none at all, in good grace maybe displaced in moving things to show customers.

 

I have seen better displays in the past, and far, far worst than at Alexandra Palace this year. Some dating back to Central Hall days were very poor indeed. As exhibitors I always stood in the crowd to hear what people thought, not the more public polite comments they made to the stands staff.

 

Purely the comments are in passing, things that struck me, after almost  60 years in the business and hobby. I have organised shows in the past, and  know the difficulties and costs of commercial displays, with shows on railways, model engineering, hi-fi, and hobby electronics, and the rule we worked to was to be aspirational, to display the very best aspects of the goods your retailing.

 

My thought was that some makers, who remain unnamed, do not really understand both salesmanship and showmanship, trying hard, but could do better.

 

Stephen.