London Festival of Railway Modelling, Alexandra Palace, 25/26 March 2017

[tc]

the main sponsoring mag is BRITISH Railway Modelling

 

It is, but the title of the show is the London Festival of Railway Modelling, so the brief is wider. There is a different flavour to all of the BRM shows, and the London show has always had a strong non-UK influence. The space also allows us to try some different things rather than following a formula, and does mean some years there are fewer of some scales / periods / types than 'average'.  Clearly not everything is going to be to everyone's taste but across the two halls I hope more than enough to provide sufficient entertainment and most importantly for me inspiration.

 

Tom

(MRC Exhibition Manager)

[EmporiaSub]

It is, but the title of the show is the London Festival of Railway Modelling, so the brief is wider. There is a different flavour to all of the BRM shows, and the London show has always had a strong non-UK influence.

 

(MRC Exhibition Manager)

After all, remember how London generally voted 'remain'........as he ducks for cover now!!

[Ravenser]

Hello

 

      John, Paul and I had a good weekend at Ally Pally with Towcester. we had a couple of minor glitches on Saturday but they were sorted  and Sunday was a trouble free day. There were the odd  operator errors, mostly by me, for which I apologise. However if any-one on here had an issue with the operation of the layout I would welcome their input on how we can improve things. I am very much in favour of constructive face to face comments not hiding behind the anonymity of the web. I'm sure this goes for all the other owners/operators of layouts who give up their time delight and entertain people. Also if we are having a problem with the electrics please feel free to pop round the back and show us what the problem is. Finally if you have nothing better to do you can always go get the teas in for us as we don't have time ourselves; three a day is our normal average. Belatedly thanks to Warners for inviting us, to their staff for making it possible and to the MRC  and Ally Pally stewards for making it such a pleasurable experience. See you all again in 2019 when we return with Fenchurch St Peter.

 

                                                                                                                                     Cheers

 

                                                                                                                                              George

 

A few things worth pointing out.

 

Firstly dehydration is actually an issue - don't laugh. The show was open 7.5 hours on the Saturday and 7 hours on the Sunday. (Some shows are open even longer) Exhibitors will  expect to be in the hall an hour or more before it opens to sort out stock, attend to minor issues etc etc - some folk were trying to get in at 8:00 for a 9:30 start. A bottle of coke at lunch and nowt else between breakfast and 7pm is not enough. Remember all that stuff about a human being requiring 4 pints of water a day?

 

A mildly dehydrated operator is not a sharp operator. As for the chap who has to drive a 3.5ton hired lorry back to the North of England that evening....

 

(And by the way the same, in a slightly milder form, applies to the show visitor. Even felt tired and losing focus by about 2:45pm plodding round a big show? Have you considered how few drinks you've actually had since you left home that morning? A quick cuppa may bring a surprising revival of attention and interest in the show)

 

I am perfectly capable of operating a layout with a cup of tea at my elbow . Shock, horror, I may even take a couple of swigs of tea between movements. It seems like Best Practice for the operator being relieved to offer to get a drink for the operator coming on duty.

 

Secondly, time, and the perception thereof. A lot of people will spend no more than 5-10 seconds looking at a layout before moving on. I'm made painfully conscious of just how long 2 minutes actually is every time I have to shake an aerosol can of paint. It seems like for ever. I strongly suspect that the people who say they were watching a layout for ages and nothing seemed to run actually spent no more than 20-40 sec watching. Time it with a watch - you'll be shocked how long 40 sec feels

 

I doubt I personally spent more than a minute looking at Essex Belt Lines - how long would it take to walk slowly round the frontage, as I did?

 

Even at busy locations like Doncaster there are frequent periods of 5 minutes inactivity. 30-60 seconds between moves is hardly outrageous on a layout operating for 7.5 hours continously

 

Hence comments that "nothing was running" on layouts that were being operated are likely to be wide of the mark.

 

(And if the power supply to the block goes out, don't blame the layouts for not running)

 

Thirdly , security - as someone who was seriously concerned about whether his stock would be safe overnight (to the extent that nearly all of it went home with me in the holdall on Friday night) the fact that the halls were locked overnight was a great relief - though personally I would have very much have preferred it if they'd thrown us out at 6pm not 5:30 on Saturday

 

Attendance was an odd pattern this year, especially on the Sunday . Sunday morning was utterly dead - from 9:30 to 10:05 the total number of punters within 15' of the layout was - zero (I know 'cos I was operating). By noon, I doubt if we'd had more than 20 visitors - and 5 of those were small boys , one of whom must have stayed watching for 20 minutes. Despite not being a continuous circuit and trains running slowly they were very interested, even fascinated, watching the trains - possibly because we were front operated and at that point unbarriered and the layout was more or less at their eye-level.

 

By Sunday afternoon the halls were crowded

[009matt]

Hi all, I attended ally pally on Saturday. I hadn't been for a couple of years due to commitments elsewhere. I have to say, I was not disappointed. I quickly scanned around the hall, butterflying from trader to trader, picking up some bargains (£35 manors on the Dapol stand ) and grabbing a front row view of Copenhagen fields enforce it was 10 deep. I then managed to tick off every layout. I think I saw movement on almost all layouts. If I didn't, I didn't care, because I enjoy looking at the quality of the scenic work, often with the chat about how it was made. My favourite layouts were, in no particular order, the North American HO/HOn3 timber/logging zig zag layout, leysdown and Eaton Gomery. I also enjoyed the impressive might of the American modular. Hats off to that team, it is nice to see a modular layout that doesn't look like modules. I have exhibited layouts (not at ally pally mind) and it is great fun to show them off, but sometimes it is hard to balance a cup of tea, a chat with a member of the public, running trains without derailments, overcoming electrical faults etc. I had no qualms about any of this on Saturday. Well done to all for a fantastic show

[298]

Having a spectrum of all types of layouts is a good thing. Whilst layouts such as Crewlisle do not set new standards in fine scale modelling they fulfil two important functions.

1. They provide movement and entertainment, something sorely lacking on too many layouts across the exhibition circuit.

2. They are likely to encourage visitors to finally get down to building their layout, because they can see something that does not look beyond them.

20 years ago it would have appealed to me (being room sized and OHLE and all that), but kind of led me to start looking at other prototypes because I realised I didnt have the space to build a layout that didn't involve such compromises such as short trains, those gradients and tailchasing.

 

Sorry, but in the nicest possible way I wouldn't call that layout or any other "Premier", not least because I've been searching since the Nottingham Show and still not found it or a list of qualities that those layouts are supposed to have, but instead consider it along the lines of a themed display from Pecorama or a curio alongside rattling tinplate or an old model of Ashburton.

[JohnDMJ]

When does the Ally Pally 2018 thread start?

 

Whenever you start it!

[Glorious NSE]

Secondly, time, and the perception thereof. A lot of people will spend no more than 5-10 seconds looking at a layout before moving on. I'm made painfully conscious of just how long 2 minutes actually is every time I have to shake an aerosol can of paint. It seems like for ever. I strongly suspect that the people who say they were watching a layout for ages and nothing seemed to run actually spent no more than 20-40 sec watching. Time it with a watch - you'll be shocked how long 40 sec feels

I was thinking about this on my walk home - I totally agree. 

 

Not to mention 'there's nowt so queer as folk' - I've had folk complain of nothing moving whilst there's a train rolling past right under their nose just because the loco happens to be out of view, or on another occasion, apparently because a train shunting 'doesn't count as moving' - folk can be utterly fickle, and days after the event nothing is certain.

 

It's unfortunately very plausible to me that folk could glance at a layout as they walk past, maybe whilst a train is temporarily off-scene, or behind a structure, or in a station stop (or yes, even whilst the operator is having a 5 second long swig of tea heaven forbid!) and conclude in that length of time that 'nothing ever moves...' - and they have come to that conclusion with little more than a second or two's glance. 

So - here's a challenge for anyone that wants to say that nothing moves on layouts at exhibitions, i'm going to give this a try next time i'm at a show. 

 

1. Give a layout at least 3 minutes of your time - that's three whole, complete, minutes of your time. Not 'that felt like ages so it must be more than three minutes' - Three actual minutes. Seriously. Count them, chances are you've got a little timer on your phone or your watch if you need help with that. Three, scientifically verified, minutes. If you think that's a lot - remember the folk the other side of the layout have probably given up 3 or 4 whole days to bring this layout to you - so is 3 minutes too much to ask? They aren't generally going to be asking for donations* or inviting you to their church, or asking whether you are happy with your gas supplier, or telling you about this great new property development in Spain. These are not generally scary people out to take something from you. It's fine to hang around that long.

 

Now - I appreciate that not everybody likes everything in the sphere of model railways, that's fine. I don't like everything either. So...

 

2. If you're not interested enough in any layout to do that  (wrong era/locale/country/prototype/perceived quality level/completeness level/fascia colour/wrong brand of operators jeans or whatever) don't waste your time - just walk on and find one you do like enough to do that. At any decent sized show there will be one - don't waste your valuable time looking at it and don't waste your valuable time whingeing about the ones you were never going to like anyway on the internet! You didn't like it - but somebody else there probably loved it. Get over it and move on.

 

3. On the ones you like enough to invest 3 minutes in - if you get to 2 minutes and nothing has moved (and you haven't already done so by then) - talk to the crew on the layout, ask if they have a problem. At least you'll know what the issue was (or wasn't) when you start talking about it on the internet.

 

My guess is though, unless a layout has some kind of a serious issue - you will not find any layouts that haven't run a train in 3 minutes.

 

(*Unless - did you bring cake? We accept cake.)

 

 

 

Edited March 29, 2017 by Glorious NSE

[cp409067]

..... straight out of Alex Bowie. [Who he?  An inspirational writer in and sometime editor of the Model Railway Constructor in 1959-60 and possibly John the Baptist to the Messiah that is Iain Rice.]   .....

 

Chris 

 

*

 

Hmm, an interesting parenthetical (and none the worse for being so) remark. Thank you.

 

I recall the impact of seeing those early "Pictorial Layout" articles (MRC 1959) with the perspective drawings, and how refreshing they were at the time when elsewhere the prolific CJF just offered track plans. Add to that the suggestions as to motive power and on many occasions links to construction articles to be found in the same issue, and it was inspiring material.

 

I had not previously thought of these articles being the precursor of the work of IAR. On the one hand that is a fair point, and on the other one might wonder how much he was influenced by material published in the USA and other parts of Europe.

 

 

CP

[James Makin]

This is all too true about the timings of watching a layout!

 

On the flipside (and usually at a smaller show) I find myself approaching a small layout and start looking at it for a while, then everyone else walks off just leaving you and the operator, they're busy operating for your pleasure and you've finished looking but it then becomes embarrassing to just walk away! I have stood alone at many layouts for longer just out of politeness haha! Is that just me?

 

When I used to operate my little old cliché depot layout years back at shows I'd love to see the people that did wander past, you get the 3 second look, a grimace ("ergh it's not steam") and then they walk on!

 

As for Ally Pally - great show, picked up some dirt cheap Hornby Intercity Mk2E's that will keep me off the streets trying to make look vaguely authentic over the next few months!

[Bluebell Model Railway]

It was a good show went on the Saturday, crowds were not too bad, started to clear about 3pm I took a series of videos so if anyone didn't go, you can see a few below:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0mqxhZ6TkI

 

 

I have just uploaded about 99 images from layouts, and manufacturers, hope this helps a few that couldn't make it.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRMpiq1

 

[alderson.eric.j]

Thanks to Bluebell Railway & the others for your photos & videos posted here & on the web.

Thanks to you I'll be able to see many a layout I was not able to see... As I was doing demos at the MRC stand, only had 30 min. to eat plus 30 min. for shopping each day as I detest leaving for more than that due to respect for the visitors who had to wait to ask advises on our techniques (CAD-CUT with Cameo cutter & lasercut...)

Eric, MRC London.

Edited March 30, 2017 by alderson.eric.j

[PaulRhB]

It's unfortunately very plausible to me that folk could glance at a layout as they walk past, maybe whilst a train is temporarily off-scene, or behind a structure, or in a station stop (or yes, even whilst the operator is having a 5 second long swig of tea heaven forbid!) and conclude in that length of time that 'nothing ever moves...' - and they have come to that conclusion with little more than a second or two's glance.

 

. . . .

 

Now - I appreciate that not everybody likes everything in the sphere of model railways, that's fine. I don't like everything either. So...

 

2. If you're not interested enough in any layout to do that (wrong era/locale/country/prototype/perceived quality level/completeness level/fascia colour/wrong brand of operators jeans or whatever) don't waste your time - just walk on and find one you do like enough to do that. At any decent sized show there will be one - don't waste your valuable time looking at it and don't waste your valuable time whingeing about the ones you were never going to like anyway on the internet! You didn't like it - but somebody else there probably loved it. Get over it and move on.

 

(*Unless - did you bring cake? We accept cake.)

 

 

Unfortunately some people seem to focus on what they don't like rather than what they did. If a layout seems dead I usually pop round again if the general modelling catches my eye. If it doesn't then I just move on. What I dislike more than the negativity on here is those who feel they need to loudly say such things at a show.

 

As to cake I have twice been handed a rather fine cake by people who came specially to see my layout and had noted my numerous references to it, so you might be in luck Martyn

 

I take a motley assortment of crew who get on well and generally take the mick when it goes wrong so they continue to entertain the visitors. Several times it's been noted we appear to be enjoying ourselves and it's especially great when you're backing onto similar groups. Tools being loaned back and forth when it goes wrong, borrowing spare leads etc and the fun is infectious to the punters too.

Exhibiting is tiring, ooh me back, but having enough helpers, chairs and refreshments to hand keeps you happy and that is picked up by those watching.

At the last two shows I was so pleased that a couple of people from Germany at each one liked it because it looked right and then the numerous people who liked the HSB from steam trips. With the Swiss layout it was often the holiday memories that got people chatting too. I was quite happy that those people really enjoyed it, rather than a few who turned their noses up, and it makes it all worth while.

[Mark Dickerson]

Unfortunately some people seem to focus on what they don't like rather than what they did. If a layout seems dead I usually pop round again if the general modelling catches my eye. If it doesn't then I just move on. What I dislike more than the negativity on here is those who feel they need to loudly say such things at a show.

Yes, criticism doesn't have to be critical. For example I find Copenhagen Fields a rather lovely depiction of the North London Line, only hampered by the appearance of some minor-branch-or-other. And I'm writing to the police 'cos I didn't see the Oerlikon EMU at alllll...   

 

Next year may Ally Pally be a tough call - I like the bargains early on Saturday, but Sunday this year was so much more pleasant.

[stewartingram]

Whenever you start it!

 

When will it be locked?

 

Stewart

[Chris M]

20 years ago it would have appealed to me (being room sized and OHLE and all that), but kind of led me to start looking at other prototypes because I realised I didnt have the space to build a layout that didn't involve such compromises such as short trains, those gradients and tailchasing.

Sorry, but in the nicest possible way I wouldn't call that layout or any other "Premier", not least because I've been searching since the Nottingham Show and still not found it or a list of qualities that those layouts are supposed to have, but instead consider it along the lines of a themed display from Pecorama or a curio alongside rattling tinplate or an old model of Ashburton.

My point was that exhibitions need to have a mix of layout types, not just "premier layouts" whatever those are. It is highly likely that my view of what makes a premier layout is different to yours. For instance some people love Copenhagen Fields but others don't.

 

My own little N gauge layout is not premier league but I think it is interesting and it represents my best efforts. It has been to Warley, Stafford, Swindon Steam and other exhibitions and has been very well received by some but totally ignored by others. At nearly every show some visitors have said my layout is the best one at the show for them, mainly because it provides a lot of interesting operation in a very small space. I very much hope that my little layout has inspired individuals to build a layout in a way that "premier layouts" such as the brilliant Holiday Haunts can't. That's the value of a mix of layouts.

[Orange Cat]

 My favourite layouts were, in no particular order, the North American HO/HOn3 timber/logging zig zag layout, leysdown and Eaton Gomery. 

 

Funny, isn't it? Given the comments about people wanting to see trains moving, that one of the favourite layouts at the show appears to have been Leysdown which, according to its operator, only had three trains altogether. I can't imagine there was a constant furry of movement on there.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Orange Cat

[Chris M]

Funny, isn't it? Given the comments about peope wanting to see trains moving, that one of the favourite layouts at the show appears to have been Leysdown which, according to its operator, only had three trains altogether. I can't imagine there was a constant furry of movement on there.

Maybe its not the quantity, its what you do with them!

[black and decker boy]

We only have 4 trains on Kirkmellington but we can usually achieve constant movement as we have over 40 mineral wagons which must be sorted and shuffled to extract the loaded ones and move them to the exchange siding and send empties in the opposite direction.

 

To run through this fully and despatch a rake of loaded coals can take over 40 minutes. On top of that we have 3 branch trains which amble past every now and again to add some variety for all concerned.

[roundhouse]

I recall at one show a year or so ago that a viewer walked away from my Banbury layout for waiting 10 seconds after the train disappeared off scene muttering nothing is happening despite another train that was just about to enter the scenic part of the layout. It's all relative to each individual

[Talltim]

This is all too true about the timings of watching a layout!

 

On the flipside (and usually at a smaller show) I find myself approaching a small layout and start looking at it for a while, then everyone else walks off just leaving you and the operator, they're busy operating for your pleasure and you've finished looking but it then becomes embarrassing to just walk away! I have stood alone at many layouts for longer just out of politeness haha! Is that just me?

Or when spend so long looking at a layout that they offer you the controller, then after a few minutes say "This is the most complicated bit of the sequence, I'mjust going to get a cup of tea"!

[iL Dottore]

Whilst I wasn't able to get to Ally Pally this year, it has a very fond place in my railway modeller's heart: it was at Ally Pally way back in 20nn that I re-caught the railway modelling "bug" (I was at Ally Pally simply because I had an afternoon to kill between business trips one Saturday in London) and I have been (sort-of) modelling ever since. Not only have visited the show a number of times, but I've also been an ersatz exhibitor one year, thanks to having constructed some buildings for Black County Blues and delivering them on the morning the show opened on the Saturday and got roped in to help run it. Great fun! (I've also constructed buildings for Lancaster Green Ayre - but that's another story).

 

I've always found the show to be very enjoyable, although by Swiss standards the toilets in Ally Pally and the catering for the exhibitors leave something to be desired (not so the catering provided to the public - which for the most part is quite good and not unduly expensive for London). I also like the huge variety of layout themes on show and I also find things to inspire my own modelling in all the layouts - from master works like Copenhagen Fields to works in progress like LGA to small 1 person/small group layouts (although - it pains me to say - it's occasionally inspiration on what not do).

 

Whilst I recognise a grain of truth in some of the less than positive comments about the show and venue, it must never be forgotten that "shows that are open for and to the general public" (such as Crufts, The Ideal Home Exhibition, The Clothes Show, The Geneva Motor Show, etc.) have budgets that make the budgets for shows like Warley and Ally Pally look like pocket money. In truth, Warners and Warley MRC (to name but two) have done sterling work in providing shows that hit 95% of "all the buttons" 95% of the time. And that ain't bad for a hobby that can be a fractious as railway modelling.

 

Personal situation permitting, I hope to make it to Ally Pally next year (I'd love to exhibit, but probably not in my lifetime...) and I'm very much looking forward to it.

 

iD

Edited March 30, 2017 by iL Dottore

[bertiedog]

I have just uploaded about 99 images from layouts, and manufacturers, hope this helps a few that couldn't make it.

https://flic.kr/s/aHskRMpiq1

 

Many thanks , it just confirms that it was a jolly good show,....... but does show one makers stand with no signage or labels on any model, look for yourselves. .......A minor point, a passing comment, it does not spoil the show,........... and others gripers about the amount moving are in relation to the intentions of the operators, who perhaps should make it more clear to the viewer what is going on, and how the layout is being run.

I feel that strict timetable or restricted running should not become the norm, it does risk boredom, but it is a balancing act that a lot of layouts do not quite get right.

 

The opposite, with fast multiple running can equally be dismissed as Toy Trains by a lot of enthusiasts who should know better.

 

Layouts generally need more signage, information, stock lists, builders, references and sources on display with the layout, it can so easily be done on a PC.

 

Also I have always favoured having a member of the team as "Host" in front of the layout, to give details, explain the operation and handle queries, it reduces the strain on the operators for a start. Yes, they can be a bit gimmicky, railway uniform dressed, but that's showmanship for the great public out there, who have to be attracted to the hobby in every way.

 

Seems we have a lot of members who have legitimate points, but are going a bit over the top on some, but that's life.....

 

Stephen

[Glorious NSE]

As to cake I have twice been handed a rather fine cake by people who came specially to see my layout and had noted my numerous references to it, so you might be in luck Martyn

 

More cake, less negativity. Sounds perfect.

[Glorious NSE]

and others gripers about the amount moving are in relation to the intentions of the operators, who perhaps should make it more clear to the viewer what is going on, and how the layout is being run.

I feel that strict timetable or restricted running should not become the norm, it does risk boredom, but it is a balancing act that a lot of layouts do not quite get right.

 

Is that really the case though?

• Was anyone there actually running "A strict timetable"?
• Was anyone there in fact deliberately restricting their train service?
• In essence - was anyone intentionally not running trains? If so - why on earth were they doing that?
• Which layouts told you that they were doing that?

   

I'm not being rhetorical - those are serious questions.

 

I think in all the exhibitions I've ever been to in 30+ years of going to exhibitions, I've only come across one layout that ran an actual timetable, rather than a schedule. (And curiously enough - I never saw it again! )

 

I've never, ever come across another that deliberately didn't run trains. (For what reason would they do that?)

 

I wasn't able to get there this year - but having seen the list of those involved and having seen some before, and knowing some of the folk behind others, and having by now watched quite a bit of video (warts and all) of many of the layouts, I didn't see anything that suggested that was going on.

 

For example - I don't recall long slow pans of empty layouts with nothing moving for example because the next train is timetabled to be half an hour away?

 

We've had one person claim up-thread that 39 layouts (based on the advertised 40 less the one that apparently was) were not operating at all? Again, I wasn't there, but that sounds vanishingly unlikely to me, short of a massive powercut affecting almost the entire venue, which nobody else seems to have reported! 

 

I'm convinced (and increasingly I'm deeply concerned) that we have an element of the viewing public who have somehow gained a highly unrealistic expectation of what to expect, or even what is even physically possible with most layouts. That's resulting in a toxic negativity that *is* affecting operators (not just me - that includes a lot of folk who are out there a heckuva lot more than I am and with some seriously good layouts between them).

 

So my post earlier was fairly serious - can folk objectify their claims please.

 

My way was just a suggestion - If folk have other, maybe better ways of objectively measuring layout activity then I'd love to hear them.

 

[Orange Cat]

I was at Manchester when Heckmondwyke ran to a prototypical timetable and there was no shortage of interest there. Quite the contrary, people waited for ages to see a train appear. Often it was timetabled half an hour away. Folks were checking the timetable and coming back when the next train was due. I don't think they ever repeated the experiment and ran to a sequence at subsequent exhibitions but it showed that a well modelled layout does not necessarily need trains running continuously to attract viewers, (Or they didn't 40 years ago, maybe attitudes have changed).

One of the things that always puzzles me with this argument about always having something moving is the case of the ever popular model subject, the single-line branch terminus. How often do we see layouts where the train departs up the single line and no sooner has the brake van disappeared through the hole in the sky than the next arrival pops up, ignoring the fact that in reality there would be several miles at least before those two trains could pass each other. Should there be a break to represent that fact or not? I suppose some would call such a break as "nothing running" and say, "No" whereas I would consider it a part of realistic operation.