London Festival of Railway Modelling, Alexandra Palace, 25/26 March 2017

[sharris]

If I ever get to exhibit Willington (Bedford to Cambridge line) I might run an accurate Sunday service:

 

1 Morning train each direction. 

1 Afternoon train each direction. 

 

Visitors can be thankful I'm not modelling the modern version of the Bedford to Bletchley line - no Sunday service. 

[5050]

 a well modelled layout does not necessarily need trains running continuously to attract viewers, (Or they didn't 40 years ago, maybe attitudes have changed).

 

I don't necessarily think it is solely attitudes.  A lot of people today have been brought up in the 'instant fix' society where a wait of more than a few seconds is interminable to them.  Attention spans also seem to have diminished considerably.  It would be interesting to discover how old the 'negative comment' makers are?  Given the above, I reckon considerably younger than me!

 

But that's not difficult these days.................

[TEAMYAKIMA]

I think the issue for me is whether there is anything interesting to look at where there are no trains running.

 

There was a big 4 track mainline (prototypical) 4mm BR(W) roundy roundy at Warley a couple of years back that I've seen praised highly here on RMweb but when I stood and waited and waited there were no trains moving. And because most of the scenery was just grassy embankments there was nothing to keep my interest during these long gaps, so I didn't personally enjoy looking at it.

 

On the other hand, my layout has an urban theme and there will (hopefully) be plenty of detail to interest the viewer in the brief period that trains are not moving.

 

My point is that people like looking at interesting scenery just as much as moving trains - 20 ft of plain grass may be prototypical but is not particularly interesting.

[bertiedog]

On slow operation, Yes, I have seen many layouts over the years from 1956 to now, that are run on a timetable, or to a rota that stops the layout looking as if something is going on. I am not going to fall for naming particular layouts, thank you.......There were plenty of  other issues that cause delays at shows that are entirely beyond the operators control.

 

This is not complaining about it, it's purely constructive comment, I have seen many times the operators concentrating on a movement and at the end of it, relax and even turn away or get up for a short break, probably well needed,  and the layout is then appearing idle to the public viewer. I have often arrived at a layout and waited up to 5 minutes for any  movement at all, but I am willing to wait, I do not bleat about it on here.

 

What I did, and some others, was to have a "host" in front of the layout, or the man in charge behind it,, who after the "session", introduced the operators to the viewers, thanked them, and explained the next part of the timetable or procedure. It was done in a discrete way, not on a megaphone!, and gives a chance for the operator to have a short rest, check the locos and stock are ready to go again.

 

The whole thing can be automated on any PC these days, or triggered by a smartphone, by the operator, it just helps smooth over the gaps and keeps peoples interest, they feel more involved. I kept a finished building in a perspex case, which was shown, and handed around, to the viewers in the "dead" moments.

 

With an American layout I printed out a batch of US vintage style Railroad Passes, (in the days before printers on PC) to be given out to the viewers every few minutes, as stock was sorted and checked over. It smoothed over the operation of a difficult to operate end to end line.

 

Some partisan positions are creeping in to these comments, these wonderful shows are for everybody, and not confined to British outline, unless specified by organisers for specialist shows. But I did stand near the Dublo Layout and heard one modeller say it should not have been allowed in, more suited to Toy Fairs....!

 

Stephen.

Edited March 30, 2017 by bertiedog

[Stubby47]

More cake, less negativity. Sounds perfect.

 

Don't forget - Cake will be available at the SWAG members Day event in Taunton, on 30th April.

 

But, be warned - we will not be having any negative comments about things not running, crowds too deep, poor catering or any other types of moaning - right !?!

[bertiedog]

Don't forget - Cake will be available at the SWAG members Day event in Taunton, on 30th April.

 

But, be warned - we will not be having any negative comments about things not running, crowds too deep, poor catering or any other types of moaning - right !?!

What, ....no West Country Brexit?

[de Selby]

Don't forget - Cake will be available at the SWAG members Day event in Taunton, on 30th April.

 

But, be warned - we will not be having any negative comments about things not running, crowds too deep, poor catering or any other types of moaning - right !?!

 

I think you just need some simple ground rules:

 

1) Anyone wishing to post negative comments about a layout on Social Media must first bring along cake.

2) They must divide the cake into two equal portions.

3) They must give the portions to the layout operators.

 

Then they can half their cake and tweet it.

 

Hat > Coat > Voom!

[t-b-g]

Running to timetable doesn't have to mean two trains an hour. We used to run Narrow Road to a timetable which only lasted 1 hour but in that time there were over 50 arrivals and departures, plus various light engine and shunting moves around the station plus locos moving around the shed yard and shunting in the goods yard.

 

It was common for between 2 and 5 locos to be moving at once and if there was ever nothing moving it was a coincidence that overlapping moves finished at the same time and it was no more than a few seconds before something else moved.

 

It was hard work operating it but very rewarding and we usually had a good crowd round us.

 

That was on a double track main line terminus with 4 platforms.

 

I have seen that sort of running on a tiny number of layouts at shows and on none recently.

[EmporiaSub]

I was at Manchester when Heckmondwyke ran to a prototypical timetable and there was no shortage of interest there. Quite the contrary, people waited for ages to see a train appear. Often it was timetabled half an hour away. Folks were checking the timetable and coming back when the next train was due. I don't think they ever repeated the experiment and ran to a sequence at subsequent exhibitions but it showed that a well modelled layout does not necessarily need trains running continuously to attract viewers, (Or they didn't 40 years ago, maybe attitudes have changed).

One of the things that always puzzles me with this argument about always having something moving is the case of the ever popular model subject, the single-line branch terminus. How often do we see layouts where the train departs up the single line and no sooner has the brake van disappeared through the hole in the sky than the next arrival pops up, ignoring the fact that in reality there would be several miles at least before those two trains could pass each other. Should there be a break to represent that fact or not? I suppose some would call such a break as "nothing running" and say, "No" whereas I would consider it a part of realistic operation.

 

Probably find that there is actually more movement on the branch terminus layout than a large continuous run....!

[bourneagain]

There been a fair amount of comments here with regard to the lack of trains running, but I`ve yet to read any gripes stating; that this layout was supposed to represent a X-Y Branch Line, but there were TOO many trains running, it was utterly ridiculous the intensity of the service being shown. It was never like that, it spoilt the whole illusion!

On the other hand if there isn`t too many trains to be seen on a layout, the Layout Operators could always post a notice stating  -

That due to a technical difficulty, the train service(s) at the moment is being supplemented by a “Rail Replacement Bus Services”.

Apologies for the delays, we hope to restore normal service as soon as possible.

In the meantime your tickets are being accepted to view all other layouts in the vicinity and you are able to return to us by all acceptable routes, once the problems have been resolved. Thank you.

[Legend]

I think it's quite important to have something running as much as possible. What surprises me is large roundly rounds DCC layouts that seem to have to wait for a train to complete a whole circuit before launching a second one. I thought DCC was all about two trains on one track. While obviously not suggesting a stream of trains one after the other, I'm quite surprised more is not made of this.

[roundhouse]

One of our operators on Banbury often has three moving at once but that does lead to more mishaps if he gets distracted so that's one reason there may only be one train moving per line on a larger layout even if DCC

[Legend]

One of our operators on Banbury often has three moving at once but that does lead to more mishaps if he gets distracted so that's one reason there may only be one train moving per line on a larger layout even if DCC

Thanks for the explanation and I can understand that. But I thought you controlled the train by the address . So I thought you could have three guys each controlling their own train on a large circuit. Certainly it's too much to expect one guy to control all three.

 

Other than sound , which is a bit like Bovril, there seems to be little reason for going DCC on a large roundy round.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Legend

[roundhouse]

Thanks for the explanation and I can understand that. But I thought you controlled the train by the address . So I thought you could have three guys each controlling their own train on a large circuit. Certainly it's too much to expect one guy to control all three.

Other than sound , which is a bit like Bovril, there seems to be little reason for going DCC on a large roundy round.

 

Yes you can but that does mean more expenses for the organisers so just depends on how many operators each layout can either find or the show afford the travel and accommodation if it's a long distance show for the layout.

[jamie92208]

Yes you can but that does mean more expenses for the organisers so just depends on how many operators each layout can either find or the show afford the travel and accommodation if it's a long distance show for the layout.

Thanks for the explanation and I can understand that. But I thought you controlled the train by the address . So I thought you could have three guys each controlling their own train on a large circuit. Certainly it's too much to expect one guy to control all three.

 

Other than sound , which is a bit like Bovril, there seems to be little reason for going DCC on a large roundy round.

On an 0 gauge layout each train can be worth a sum into 4 figures. They are also heavy, several pounds weight for a loco. Often the stock may belong to several people some of whom may have lent it to the layout owner. Thus it does really make sense to have only one train moving under the guidance of one controller. However there may be other movements such as locos in a shed yard or shunting in a goods yard. I once had an experienced operator tail end a freight train with another on a previous layout, several wagons ended up the floor. Fortunately they all belonged to me but it wasn't pleasant to watch.

 

Jamie

Edited March 30, 2017 by jamie92208

[RANGERS]

I was at Manchester when Heckmondwyke ran to a prototypical timetable and there was no shortage of interest there. Quite the contrary, people waited for ages to see a train appear. Often it was timetabled half an hour away. Folks were checking the timetable and coming back when the next train was due. I don't think they ever repeated the experiment and ran to a sequence at subsequent exhibitions but it showed that a well modelled layout does not necessarily need trains running continuously to attract viewers, (Or they didn't 40 years ago, maybe attitudes have changed).

One of the things that always puzzles me with this argument about always having something moving is the case of the ever popular model subject, the single-line branch terminus. How often do we see layouts where the train departs up the single line and no sooner has the brake van disappeared through the hole in the sky than the next arrival pops up, ignoring the fact that in reality there would be several miles at least before those two trains could pass each other. Should there be a break to represent that fact or not? I suppose some would call such a break as "nothing running" and say, "No" whereas I would consider it a part of realistic operation.

 

I remember that, although I thought it was Central Hall around 1979-80.

The layout was fully signalled with prototypical block bell communication. A chap stood next to me was losing patience and after an extended lull in train movements, he turned to me and said "its just like the real thing, the bells ring but b****r all runs!"

[john new]

1) Timetabling - I recall researching for setting up the timetable for Evercreech Junction on a big club layout many years ago as we thought summer Saturdays would be busy and modellable authentically. Found fairly quickly it was a tidal flow, logically north in the morning, south in the afternoon/evening so had to be adapted to a sequence. If we ran it right the fiddle yards would be huge and the viewing boring.

 

2) Attention span - from taking my recent media degree I know there is a phenomenal amount of research relating to advertising that relates to what grabs a viewers eye in that vital first second or two of viewing. The problem with most of us as layout designers/builders is that we don't think about it as a display intended to catch the eye in the way an advert does we think about it as representing the prototype and operational interest. Rice's book helps in that but there is far more to be researched than just view blockers etc.

 

Copenhagen Fields is my favourite layout and has been for years, I rarely watch the trains. It works as an eye-grabbing spectacle. Someone remarked earlier it is not N, presumably it is some variant of 2mm, (a) does it matter? and (b) I didn't notice the trains long enough to spot the difference I was too enthralled in the buildings and market etc.

Edited March 30, 2017 by john new

[Enterprisingwestern]

I reckon it's the rucksacks wot done it, we never had negativity until they were invented.

 

Mike.

[jetmorgan]

I reckon it's the rucksacks wot done it, we never had negativity until they were invented.

 

Mike.

I'd have to add the smart phone to that....never seen so many people standing at the barriers and checking out their facebook status and emails etc etc stopping other people getting a look at the layouts and what was moving and going on.

[40F]

Never mind after Brexit we will not be bound to EU laws re running of trains at exhibitions

[queensquare]

1) Timetabling -

 

Copenhagen Fields is my favourite layout and has been for years, I rarely watch the trains. It works as an eye-grabbing spectacle. Someone remarked earlier it is not N, presumably it is some variant of 2mm, (a) does it matter? and (b) I didn't notice the trains long enough to spot the difference I was too enthralled in the buildings and market etc.

Just a couple of points worth noting. It is 2mm, I'm not sure how many variants there are but this is the one that's been around for sixty years plus.

Does it matter? Yes, but ironically the fact you didn't notice is an indicator of how successfull the standards are. Many N layouts are spoilt by the crudeities of the scale, particularly the clumpy track and girder rail. This, certainly for me, jars on the eye and detracts from the overall scene. Where 2FS really scores is that nothing jars, the railway blending into the landscape, in the case of CF, an urban one. The fact that you and many others don't notice it's 2FS can be seen as job done.

 

Jerry

[Clearwater]

I'd have to add the smart phone to that....never seen so many people standing at the barriers and checking out their facebook status and emails etc etc stopping other people getting a look at the layouts and what was moving and going on.

Harsh - I'm often updating the relevant rmweb thread;)

[Geep7]

I wonder if this need for constant movement of trains at exhibitions is, in part, down to YouTube effect. The number of videos of exhibitions that appear on YouTube is staggering, and almost all of them focus on the trains running on all the layouts, and very few seem to focus on the scenics of the layout.

 

Now that is not meant as a complaint, it's just an observation, as I think the videos on YouTube serve a huge purpose of getting more people interested in model railways. But perhaps it could be a reason why some exhibition visitors think there should be constant running?

 

Now, I have helped exhibit layouts, or exhibited my own layouts, for more years than I can remember, and one thing I have always strived to do, is to ensure there is at least one train moving, in the scenic area of the layout, however this isn't always possible.

 

Also, regarding technical gremlins, I think it's nothing more frustrating to the exhibitor if these happen, especially in the middle of a show day.

[Guest]

Re: Copenhagen Fields, to me it's N. Everything EM and P4 is OO. Everything bigger than that (such as O), I just categorize as "unaffordable", as nice as it might be! No disrespect intended to the finescale modellers who are no doubt at pains to point out the nuances of their chosen scale. When viewing layouts, my brain just tends to look at the size and think "N, OO or O". The one exception is HO, which I recognize as such by the fact that it's either European or American, and often worth a much longer look than those that just tut at the "foreign" stuff and walk on. I do admire those that work to finer standards, but sadly, quite often I just don't notice the difference. Sorry!

[40F]

Harsh - I'm often updating the relevant rmweb thread;)

 

Not really common sense dictates to move out of the way. The other grievance is punters who stand in front of trade stands and hold a committee meeting