London Festival of Railway Modelling, Alexandra Palace, 25/26 March 2017

[Jol Wilkinson]

 

Re: Copenhagen Fields, to me it's N. Everything EM and P4 is OO. Everything bigger than that (such as O), I just categorize as "unaffordable", as nice as it might be! No disrespect intended to the finescale modellers who are no doubt at pains to point out the nuances of their chosen scale. When viewing layouts, my brain just tends to look at the size and think "N, OO or O". The one exception is HO, which I recognize as such by the fact that it's either European or American, and often worth a much longer look than those that just tut at the "foreign" stuff and walk on. I do admire those that work to finer standards, but sadly, quite often I just don't notice the difference. Sorry!

Interesting then, that the nuances of "finer" trackwork., etc. aren't visible or of interest to you. If so, does the effort that goes into exhibition layouts of any scale/gauge matter?

 

On the subject of timetable, schedules, etc. on London Road we operate a schedule because it's the only way we can get the maximum variety of stock on the layout and in the fiddle yards without a traffic jam.  I believe that the variety of stock adds some interest for the viewer and the operators are able to work at their own speed to maintain some action. Even so, we have found especially at the more general, as opposed to specialist, hows, that the viewers tend to want to see trains moving to keep them amused, rather than look at the static modelling.

 

It is not unknown  to get negative comments such as "when's the next train, then?" when the last one has just gone off scene. Once, when answering by saying the slight delay would give the questioner the opportunity to liik at the detailed modelling, the replay came "that he wasn't interested in any of that".

 

For those that don't know London Road (we only get invited to a few shows, it must be something I said), the attached photo shows the amount of detail on display.

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Jol Wilkinson

[chrisf]

Re: Copenhagen Fields, to me it's N. Everything EM and P4 is OO. Everything bigger than that (such as O), I just categorize as "unaffordable", as nice as it might be! No disrespect intended to the finescale modellers who are no doubt at pains to point out the nuances of their chosen scale. When viewing layouts, my brain just tends to look at the size and think "N, OO or O". The one exception is HO, which I recognize as such by the fact that it's either European or American, and often worth a much longer look than those that just tut at the "foreign" stuff and walk on. I do admire those that work to finer standards, but sadly, quite often I just don't notice the difference. Sorry!

 

Would you like to meet my optician?

 

Chris

[Glorious NSE]

Thanks for the explanation and I can understand that. But I thought you controlled the train by the address . So I thought you could have three guys each controlling their own train on a large circuit. Certainly it's too much to expect one guy to control all three.

 

In addition to the crew size issue (I suspect exhibition managers would definitely get annoyed if our crew size went from 8 to 16 just to save 20 seconds per move!) - Just how big is your intended oval - and how small are your trains?

 

The best I'd expect to achieve on almost any 'roundy' I've ever worked (and that includes a few fairly big ones over the years, both pre and post DCC) not to mention most i've seen over that time, is one train poised ready to leave the fiddle yard as the first one clears into it - you might save a handful of seconds whilst the first train clears and the road is reset, but it won't change much. (It could arguably even make it harder to achieve a slick change, as you would be unable to work both ends of the staging track together with one button.)

Most of them, whilst 'big' in model terms, just don't have the real length of track modelled to justify two trains so close to each other.

 

It'd look utterly silly if you had multiple trains chasing each other in close succession in the same signal block, and the vast majority of what we'd think of as 'big' roundy layouts won't have much more than one complete signal section modelled.

 

Only one exhibition layout I've worked on (and it's been gone a good few years now) had several consecutive signal blocks modelled in their entirety - even two operators on that would result in no trains ever seeing a green light, though it'd have made it much easier to recover those times when we'd had a fault and we'd 'stacked' the trains back up on every block!

 

And ultimately, on a relatively simple double track roundy concept I'd not expect it to take any longer than 30 seconds to get one train in, stopped, the tracks changed and a second train rolling, is that really too long to wait? Especially given there's two circuits and there's a fair chance of a train having travelled in the other direction in that time.

 

And no offence intended, but if the answer is that you can't wait 30 seconds for another movement, you're probably best off not going to exhibitions. You will be disappointed.

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2017 by Glorious NSE

[Glorious NSE]

On slow operation, Yes, I have seen many layouts over the years from 1956 to now, that are run on a timetable, or to a rota that stops the layout looking as if something is going on. I am not going to fall for naming particular layouts, thank you.......There were plenty of  other issues that cause delays at shows that are entirely beyond the operators control.

 

Thanks for that, wasn't asking for names.

 

I think what we have is a breakdown in terminology. When you start using phrases like "Strict timetable" I (and I suspect others on this thread) read that comment as referring to trains being run at specific times. Actual times. As in 'the 11.35 has just departed, next train will be at 12.15."

 

You would appear to be talking about what I'd call schedules - 'rota' is a good term also - I.E. running trains in a pre-planned order - that's not the same thing as what critics are suggesting.

 

From the other comments - we seem to have a count of 3 layouts that have used a "timetable" - spread across about 40 years of shows. Not especially common.

 

Is it okay to write off as a myth that you don't see much action at shows as layouts are all running to strict timetables?

 

 

 

[Guest]

Would you like to meet my optician?

 

My interests are eclectic despite the fact that I may not know the difference (at first glance) between 9mm N gauge and finescale.

 

I've deleted the rest of the post. Just not worth it...

Edited March 31, 2017 by Pete 75C

[chris p bacon]

My interests are eclectic despite the fact that I may not know the difference (at first glance) between 9mm N gauge and finescale. 

It's easy to tell the difference, one has more derailments than the other..............Oh hang on.......that just might be our club.......

[bertiedog]

Thanks for that, wasn't asking for names.

 

I think what we have is a breakdown in terminology. When you start using phrases like "Strict timetable" I (and I suspect others on this thread) read that comment as referring to trains being run at specific times. Actual times. As in 'the 11.35 has just departed, next train will be at 12.15."

 

You would appear to be talking about what I'd call schedules - 'rota' is a good term also - I.E. running trains in a pre-planned order - that's not the same thing as what critics are suggesting.

 

From the other comments - we seem to have a count of 3 layouts that have used a "timetable" - spread across about 40 years of shows. Not especially common.

 

Is it okay to write off as a myth that you don't see much action at shows as layouts are all running to strict timetables?

 

 

 

I am afraid there really is a breakdown in  communication here, I did not complain about lack of action on layouts, I  commented on what can be a problem to other people, read the posts more carefully. I have no problem with it, the show had no issues to me, it was a good show.

 

Exactitude about Rotas, Strict timetables, or schedules has been brought in by others, not me. I never condemned or concurred with the use of such as causing delays. It can slow the action to the audience, however it does not bother me.

Sort out reading a comment and a complaint please, and my input is only suggestions. People can and do run layouts as they please, and the Alexandra show was pretty good, got that?

Edited March 31, 2017 by bertiedog

[newbryford]

I reckon it's the rucksacks wot done it, we never had negativity until they were invented.

 

Mike.

 

 I blame 'tinterweb

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Stubby47]

I reckon it's the rucksacks wot done it, we never had negativity until they were invented.

 

Mike.

 

Too right !!

 

[Glorious NSE]

I am afraid there really is a breakdown in  communication here, I did not complain about lack of action on layouts,

 

<snip>

 

Sort out reading a comment and a complaint please

I don't believe I said you were complaining? I was just unpacking the comments you had made. (Or more accurately - shared).

Edited March 31, 2017 by Glorious NSE

[Orange Cat]

 

 

For those that don't know London Road (we only get invited to a few shows, it must be something I said), the attached photo shows the amount of detail on display.

 

 

 

More likely it's because you don't have the same rtr stock circling endlessly past the same card kit buildings and the same diecast road vehicles that the 'entertaining' layouts have. I mean, just look at that photo, you haven't got a church with a wedding, there's no house on fire with "realistic" flickering flames and fire engines with flashing blue lights. Heck you haven't even got that bloke arc welding. 

[bertiedog]

Well it looks as if it is not worth constructing sentences with if's, buts and maybes that are not noted by the reader, and the wrong interpretation is accidentally placed on the comment.

 

"

On slow operation, Yes, I have seen many layouts over the years from 1956 to now, that are run on a timetable, or to a rota that stops the layout looking as if something is going on. I am not going to fall for naming particular layouts, thank you.......There were plenty of  other issues that cause delays at shows that are entirely beyond the operators control.

 

 

The first part says that I have seen layouts that have had problems with schedules, rotas and timetables that have caused delays, it does not say that schedules, rotas, or timetables cause delays.

It merely refers to having observed... "seen"... many layouts (large number out of thousands) that has nothing happening because of the method of operation being badly applied, and because of the bad method gives an impression of slow or no action. This does not condemn or even comment on the use of timetables, rotas, etc.

 

It is perfectly fair to respond to any posting of mine, but please read the words.

 

Stephen.

 

 

[The Stationmaster]

London Road setting up.jpg

Interesting then, that the nuances of "finer" trackwork., etc. aren't visible or of interest to you. If so, does the effort that goes into exhibition layouts of any scale/gauge matter?

 

On the subject of timetable, schedules, etc. on London Road we operate a schedule because it's the only way we can get the maximum variety of stock on the layout and in the fiddle yards without a traffic jam.  I believe that the variety of stock adds some interest for the viewer and the operators are able to work at their own speed to maintain some action. Even so, we have found especially at the more general, as opposed to specialist, hows, that the viewers tend to want to see trains moving to keep them amused, rather than look at the static modelling.

 

It is not unknown  to get negative comments such as "when's the next train, then?" when the last one has just gone off scene. Once, when answering by saying the slight delay would give the questioner the opportunity to liik at the detailed modelling, the replay came "that he wasn't interested in any of that".

 

For those that don't know London Road (we only get invited to a few shows, it must be something I said), the attached photo shows the amount of detail on display.

 

London Road setting up.jpg

 

I reckon London Road closely approaches (if not exceeds) my 'ideal exhibition layout' - loads to look at and gradually soak in and then a train arrives or passes to add a bit of icing on a very nice cake.  But it's still worth looking at even if nothing moves as it's one of those layouts where you can start at one end and gradually move along to the other end with something to see as you go.

 

Fortunately it's not alone in meeting that ideal.

[Clearwater]

Not really common sense dictates to move out of the way. The other grievance is punters who stand in front of trade stands and hold a committee meeting

Of course it does. However, I think it was pretty clear I was joking....

[AndrewC]

More likely it's because you don't have the same rtr stock circling endlessly past the same card kit buildings and the same diecast road vehicles that the 'entertaining' layouts have. I mean, just look at that photo, you haven't got a church with a wedding, there's no house on fire with "realistic" flickering flames and fire engines with flashing blue lights. Heck you haven't even got that bloke arc welding. 

Agreed. The best way to please the punters and gain mega number of invites. 

 

One more thing you missed: dozens of die cast busses on bridges. Just have to have those. 

[bertiedog]

Let's be more positive, the art of presenting a layout is a complex business, that requires, artistry, and a degree of showman ship that not all the layouts have, in some peoples minds.   For myself, I do think there is room for a bit more showmanship.

 

You cannot please everybody, but I find most exhibits highly entertaining and worthwhile to watch.

 

In the days long past it had caused surprise to organisers that my layout was equipped with lighting!! or a proper frontage with signage, things that are pretty standard now. I did not start it, merely following a trend that has lead towards today excellent show standard layouts. Assaid before, the Alexandra show was excellent, top class.

[newbryford]

 

You cannot please everybody,

 

 

It's taken 19 pages to get to that conclusion...............

 

 

 

Cheers,

Mick

[Glorious NSE]

 

The first part says that I have seen layouts that have had problems with schedules, rotas and timetables that have caused delays, it does not say that schedules, rotas, or timetables cause delays.

I don't believe I attributed specifically to you the idea that schedules, rota's or timetables are things that cause delays. If you can point out where I did so, I'll be happy to apologise for misrepresenting you. 

 

I did however respond, as part of this discussion which is clearly wider than the two of us, to the issues the comments you posted raise.

 

Is that clearer?

 

It is perfectly fair to respond to any posting of mine, but please read the words.

 

 

 

Likewise I'm sure.

[298]

 

For those that don't know London Road (we only get invited to a few shows, it must be something I said), the attached photo shows the amount of detail on display.

 

London Road setting up.jpg

Clearly because the photo shows too many operators stood around drinking tea and playing with their phones....

[john new]

Not really common sense dictates to move out of the way. The other grievance is punters who stand in front of trade stands and hold a committee meeting

 

Annoying for the trader/society involved too.

[bertiedog]

Thanks for the clarification, and the number of pages involved is an indication of interest in the comments,... however many took them somewhat wrongly, but which were stated clearly at the beginning, as full support and praise for the Show.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Annoying for the trader/society involved too.

There is no answer too this age old problem, it is human behaviour to gather and chat, and as it is highly entertaining to them, they forget where they are, and stop others from getting to the stand, or the exhibit or sales stand.

 

But it is sometimes driven by the stand holder as well, as they unconsciously join in, and cold shoulder others waiting to speak to them, or make a purchase.

 

If you have been in retail you should know how to keep al the customers happy, and respect those who patiently wait. It is a skill that has to be learnt, in respect to our exhibitions, the exhibitor must try to move on, and not dally with one customer, or at worst a meeting of several people, it is up to his skill to prompt them, in a nice way to move on.

 

Tell them the refreshment room is open, ...giving un-asked for directions to it,... say your about to go for a break,... get an assistant to start tidying up the display, thus moving them,.......say in a loud voice we really must talk about this after the rush is over,....  there are hundreds of ways of subtly moving on the people blocking access to stands.

 

Regrettably there are few things the organisers can do, apart from more seating away from exhibits at some shows. Gangway sizes etc., are governed by regulations and cannot be altered easily. Show Stewards can intervene if they spot gatherings of people blocking access, but this is dangerous ground for causing offence if not handled very carefully.

 

This is a general comment and not about the London Show, where access to most stands was quite good, except at peak times, where nothing much can be done in any really busy show.

 

Stephen.

[Castlefinn]

Re: Copenhagen Fields, to me it's N. Everything EM and P4 is OO. Everything bigger than that (such as O), I just categorize as "unaffordable", as nice as it might be! No disrespect intended to the finescale modellers who are no doubt at pains to point out the nuances of their chosen scale. When viewing layouts, my brain just tends to look at the size and think "N, OO or O". The one exception is HO, which I recognize as such by the fact that it's either European or American, and often worth a much longer look than those that just tut at the "foreign" stuff and walk on. I do admire those that work to finer standards, but sadly, quite often I just don't notice the difference. Sorry!

Point of order  00 is a gauge not a scale EM P4 and 00 are all 4mm just different widths between the rails,Andy.

[gr.king]

Clearly because the photo shows too many operators stood around drinking tea and playing with their phones....

 

....too many operators standing....

[Eaton]

One thing appears certain and that being that peoples expectations from any exhibition are different, and rightly so, after all this is

why the hobby is so special as it is a very broad church. As a consequence I do not expect every exhibit to appeal to me, rather it is up to me to find those that do. If I can't find any then it probably a case of me not looking hard enough. No Exhibition Manager deliberately presents a 'bad' show as no exhibitor deliberately sets out to build a poor layout and if you except that premise then you also need to except that there must have been something in the exhibit that prompted the Exhibition Manager to offer an invitation. The search for that elusive factor may encourage closer looking. If it turns out that the invitation was offered on the strength of the spectacular scenery then to criticise slow running or the movement or lack of movement is rather missing the point. Every layout is different and not all layouts will have everything, if they did would they not be a little similar. I for one like variety.