Burneside Tramway in 7mm Scale

[NeilHB]

Neil, if you don't get fixed up with the china clay wagons offered in a previous post I see that Skytrex still show them as available on their website. As far as suitable locos go you might be lucky enough to get hold of one of the Motor Rail Simplex's that Impetus used to sell.  With some mods to the cab it could pass for the Burneside Tramway one. I seem to recall that the chap at Kalgarin models (who bought Impetus) still had some "etches only" a couple of years ago. FWIW I've attached a photo of my Simplex, built from the Impetus kit many years ago, for comparison.

Cheers,

Ray.

Thanks Ray. Have procured the last of Tim's clay wagon bodies, for collection at the pub later this week. The Skytrex ones are unfortunately the wrong era, as they wouldn't have had the hoods fitted when Burneside was still open. Believe there may be a couple of other issues such as a lack of the end door too.

 

Ah I have a cunning plan for the Simplex - we have a tame 3D printer in our group and I have drawings and rather a lot of reference photos, so hopefully there may be a Simplex trundling around.

 

Yours is a very, very nice model, thanks for sharing it :-)

 

The result of the last two nights doodling are shown below for your thoughts and feelings all, I present the proposed trackplan for the Cowan Head mill module, which would be two 2'6" x 2' boards, to make one 5' x 2' layout:

 

 

I've tried to make this one as operationally interesting as possible, with several different locations for wagons to be shunted to. From left to right we have:

 

Loco shed, with fuel tanks that will need to be replenished every so often.

The next siding will serve the boiler house, and is for oil tankers to be unloaded from

The two sidings at the front right are for loading and unloading of waste paper and the finished products

Finally the rear siding is also for loading/unloading, not sure what yet, possibly waste products, i.e. slurry for taking to the tip at Whitefoot Wood.

 

There's only four points to build on this module, oh and a single slip too...eep! I will be using very tight points of approx. 34inch radius, so all should fit I hope!

 

This is a photo of the actual mill at Cowan Head, which is what I've tried to reproduce at the lower right of the module, or at least loosely.

[Ramblin Rich]

I've been intrigued by the Burnesdie tramway since reading about it in a book on the Kendal & Windemere railway. The picture of the train going out of the goods yard past the curchyard is so evocative. 

I really do like the concept here with the various module combinations. I remember your previous ideas around this scheme, hope you can make it reality this time

One thought which occurred to me, if this is classed as a tramway, I wonder why the locos didn't need 'skirts' and cowcatchers? 

[Ramblin Rich]

Neil, I was looking on the NSL site tracing the route again and realised this version (OS six inch 1888-1913) does have the slurry siding at Whitefoot marked http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=54.3607&lon=-2.7728&layers=6&b=1

Edited December 15, 2016 by Ramblin Rich

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Thanks Andrew. I may end up incorporating aspects of my original plan into this one, possibly in one or other of the modules I have planned.

 

I have rough ideas for approximately 5 modules (including a FY one) which would various aspects of the Tramway:

 

1 - Cowan Head - the mill at the furthest end of the line, probably using the plan from post #1, or a modified version of it.

2 - Entrance to Bowston village (3rd photo down in post #1 - the Simplex and the 4 wagons) - this is the point that the Tramway rejoins the road, having run for the previous 1/2 mile or so on the verge from just before Whitefoot house.

3 - Whitefoot Wood slurry siding - there was a short siding here which served the slurry tip.

4 - Fiddleyard - 3-4 road traverser or cassettes? It would need to have an entrance at either end in order to connect to module No.5...

5 - St Oswald's churchyard, which is where the first photo in post #1 is. Given that this is out the other entrance to Burneside station goods yard, I've sited it the other side of the main FY - this does mean that this module would need another FY at its far end which would represent the mill complex at Burneside.

 

I have managed to track down a suitable OS map of the area from 1911, it shows the route of the Tramway as it was then:

http://maps.nls.uk/view/101105226 (you'll need to zoom in on Burneside and then you'll be able to follow the route of the Tramway)

The only bit missing is the slurry siding, but I have seen it located on a 1920s version of the OS map just to the left of the house marked Whitefoot, and below the 205 marker. You can see the site clearly on Googleearth and in the street view - there is a large cleared area of the wood adjacent to the route of the road and the Tramway.

 

Having found the OS map, I spent a productive lunch hour on Friday tracing the route on the line on Googlemaps, in the satellite view, and on the street view. The bit around Whitefoot is interesting as you can clearly see the route of the Tramway - the road climbs steeply, whilst the Tramway (now a footpath - The Dales Way) carries on the level through a cutting - you can see this from the photos below, one is an extract from a newspaper cutting which talked about the closure of the Burneside-Bowston section in 1965, and has a couple of nice photos of the Ruston out and about, firstly in Bowston village, and secondly just about to enter the cutting by Whitefoot house:

 

IMG_0405.JPG

 

Below is one of my photos from a visit to the area in 2010 - apart from being a bit more overgrown the view is still the same...just sadly minus one Ruston!

 

Photo 05-10-2010, 15 00 18.jpg

 

Traffic wise for the layout, it will mainly be coal and pulp inwards, and the finished paper products going out. Though the newspaper article referenced above mentions that the mill at Cowan Head converted to burn oil rather than coal in the mid-1950s - so I could in theory run an oil tank or two - would the new Dapol/ex Lionheart ones be suitable? If so, which one(s) would be suitable given that they are producing different variants?

Thinking about other goods inbound/outbound, this site talks about different materials used for finishing the paper products: http://mike.da2c.org/igg/rail/12-linind/papercard.htm - including China clay.

Various sources also mention chlorine/bleach being used - so any suggestions for how these would arrive by rail please? I am assuming tank wagons? Or barrels in open wagons?

 

Lastly, I was planning to use code 100 rail for the lightweight track work, which was approx 40lb per yard - would this be suitable, or would something like code 82 be better? If the latter, is there a supplier of this rail that would be suitable for use in 7mm scale?

 

Ta muchly in advance!

 

 

Hi Neil, just read your post and it looks really interesting, just the sort of modelling that appeals to me! regarding the chlorine/bleach deliveries, I worked on a chemical plant, Staveley Chemicals near Chesterfield, in the mid/late 70,s, early 80,s on a plant producing both Chlorine and bleach/caustic soda. At that time none of our products were sent out by rail but for the amount of chlorine that would probably been required by the paper mill I imagine it would have been delivered in very thick walled steel barrels similar to what we loaded and sent out on the back of lorries, roughly 3ft diameter, 7ft long with inwardly dished ends, I will see if I can find a photo of one, bleach would have been delivered in a normal tank but I have no idea of what they would look like, the products would most likely come from ICI at their Runcorn works.  

 

 

Cheers, Pete. 

[MarcD]

Just had a thought I have a drawing of a James Cropper PO wagon I will dig it out

 

If my memory is correct its a 5plk side door only, painted black with white lettering.

 

Marc

[NeilHB]

I've been intrigued by the Burnesdie tramway since reading about it in a book on the Kendal & Windemere railway. The picture of the train going out of the goods yard past the curchyard is so evocative. 

I really do like the concept here with the various module combinations. I remember your previous ideas around this scheme, hope you can make it reality this time

One thought which occurred to me, if this is classed as a tramway, I wonder why the locos didn't need 'skirts' and cowcatchers?

 

Neil, I was looking on the NSL site tracing the route again and realised this version (OS six inch 188-1913) does have the slurry siding at Whitefoot marked http://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=54.3607&lon=-2.7728&layers=6&b=1

Thanks Rich :-) Not sure they didn't need skirts and cowcatchers, I wonder if it was to do with it being a horse drawn Tramway to start with, and that as there wasn't much traffic it wasn't required? And good find on the slurry siding - nice bit of detective work - many thanks!

  

Hi Neil, just read your post and it looks really interesting, just the sort of modelling that appeals to me! regarding the chlorine/bleach deliveries, I worked on a chemical plant, Staveley Chemicals near Chesterfield, in the mid/late 70,s, early 80,s on a plant producing both Chlorine and bleach/caustic soda. At that time none of our products were sent out by rail but for the amount of chlorine that would probably been required by the paper mill I imagine it would have been delivered in very thick walled steel barrels similar to what we loaded and sent out on the back of lorries, roughly 3ft diameter, 7ft long with inwardly dished ends, I will see if I can find a photo of one, bleach would have been delivered in a normal tank but I have no idea of what they would look like, the products would most likely come from ICI at their Runcorn works.  

 

 

Cheers, Pete.

 

Many thanks Pete. Thanks for the info re the transportation of the chlorine, guessing I can stick a couple in an open wagon for carrying them. I'll have a scout round the internet for ICI tank wagons for the bleach, something's bound to turn up :-)   

 

Just had a thought I have a drawing of a James Cropper PO wagon I will dig it out

 

If my memory is correct its a 5plk side door only, painted black with white lettering.

 

Marc

Marc - thank you! I had seen a B&W photo (very grainy) of a Croppers wagon but couldn't obviously tell what colour it was! If you can find the drawing can I please be cheeky and ask for a copy of it?

[NeilHB]

Just as a quick alternative, after a suggestion from Andrew Young, below is an amended plan...see if you can spot the differences!

 

 

Thoughts and feelings appreciated as usual please all!

[Andrew Young]

Just as a quick alternative, after a suggestion from Andrew Young, below is an amended plan...see if you can spot the differences!

 

IMG_0421.JPG

 

Thoughts and feelings appreciated as usual please all!

I liked the previous plan and I like this one too. Depends on whether you want to build a single slip or not... :-)

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Mike Bellamy]

Just as a quick alternative, after a suggestion from Andrew Young, below is an amended plan...see if you can spot the differences!

 

 

Thoughts and feelings appreciated as usual please all!

 

 

So that's what you were doing at work yesterday whilst I was stuck on a minibus for 8 hours - next time I'll stay in Derby and you can have the pleasure of the M25 !!

 

.

[NeilHB]

I liked the previous plan and I like this one too. Depends on whether you want to build a single slip or not... :-)

Cheers,

Andrew

Thanks - not sure at the moment, it will probably be version 2 so I don't have to build the single slip, though I like the idea of having one for a bit of added interest!

 

So that's what you were doing at work yesterday whilst I was stuck on a minibus for 8 hours - next time I'll stay in Derby and you can have the pleasure of the M25 !!

 

.

Nope this is the results of an hours doodling last night - much quicker when you can trace the previous plan :-)

I'll pass on a trip round the M25 thanks!

[Ramblin Rich]

Second plan probably easier to build in terms of avoiding 'embedded' pointwork but still plenty of 'shuntability'

[Gordon A]

The second plan gives you a run round loop which is better for shunting.

 

Gordon A

[DLT]

Super project!

One thing that occurs to me with the latest plan, yes there's a lot more operational scope, but the radii look very sharp, will you get that much pointwork in the space?

I look forward to watching development.

All the best,

Dave.

[Andrew Young]

So that's what you were doing at work yesterday whilst I was stuck on a minibus for 8 hours - next time I'll stay in Derby and you can have the pleasure of the M25 !!

 

.

Steady on Mike, if you plan a layout whilst Neil drove the minibus, we might think you were about to build one...

 

Neil, think its a case of get the baseboard, or a piece of ply / table / desk at work, Mark it up for the size of board you'll have, get out the point templates and some wagons and see which looks best.

 

Andrew :-)

Edited December 15, 2016 by Andrew Young

[Andrew Young]

The second plan gives you a run round loop which is better for shunting.

 

Gordon A

Gordon, unless you're seeing something that I'm not, both plans have a run round loop...

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[Ramblin Rich]

The Cropper’s paper business is now concentrated at Burneside, but when all three mills were in use the transport problem was solved by the construction of a narrow gauge tramway linking the sites in 1879.

 

One of the scenes I would like to model is the short siding at WhiteFoot Tip Wood, which served the slurry tip, I have seen reference to an amusing incident in 1954 where the Simplex 'Rachel' ran off the end of the siding and ended up in the slurry...perhaps there could be a half submerged wagon and a couple of blokes standing around scratching their heads wondering what to do?!

 

Just re-reading this and the thought occurred - the wagon would have 'come a Cropper...!'

 

I'll get me coat.....

[Gordon A]

Hi Andrew,

 

Yes you are right, must clean my glasses. I was thinking of the plan on page 1.

 

Gordon A

[5050]

I prefer the second plan - but which is the viewing side?

[NeilHB]

Second plan probably easier to build in terms of avoiding 'embedded' pointwork but still plenty of 'shuntability'

Thanks Rich :-)

 

Super project!

One thing that occurs to me with the latest plan, yes there's a lot more operational scope, but the radii look very sharp, will you get that much pointwork in the space?

I look forward to watching development.

All the best,

Dave.

Thanks Dave! Don't worry, after a thorough review in the Brunswick on Thursday night, these modules have gained 2ft in length. Which should mean that the curves aren't quite so sharp, and there's room for more shunting and more stock too :-)

 

Just re-reading this and the thought occurred - the wagon would have 'come a Cropper...!'

 

I'll get me coat.....

Can someone pass Rich his coat please! Terrible but did make me chuckle :-)

 

I prefer the second plan - but which is the viewing side?

Thanks 5050, the viewing side is one with the engine shed nearest to you.

 

So, as stated above the plan was subjected to a thorough review in the Brunswick pub in Derby on Thursday night, with lots of suggestions and requests for running rights - seems there will be a lot of Ruston 48DS' on this layout!!!

 

Anyhow, after a nice works Christmas lunch on Friday, I came home and drew out the Mark 3 plan for Cowan Head:

 

 

Viewing side will be the lower edge, with the engine shed at the right hand end acting as a view blocker for the exit.

 

Having discussed the plan at length this Myron with Tim, there are a couple more revisions to make, so Mk4 should appear in the next day or so.

 

I also now have ideas for a further three modules (one single and a double) thanks to Tim (who is nearly as bad an influence as Mr Young...), so plans for these will follow shortly!

[NeilHB]

As mentioned in the previous post, further revisions were needed to the Mk3 plan for Cowan Head...so I now present Mk4!

 

As I also mentioned, Tim had been a bad influence and I can now present the trackplans for the extra two sections...

 

First up we have the section of line between Cowan Head and Bowston, where the private road to the mill crosses the line and leaves the line to run across the fields next to the River Kent before entering the mill at Bowston:

 

Next up is Bowston Mill and village scene, which has more sidings for shunting! There are two sidings entering the main mill building, the rear one crosses the mill race on a very tight curve, this was the siding for the bleach tankers (I think). The next one is the main siding for loading and unloading products etc., this also exits the mill at the far end, in real life it joined back up with the bleach tank siding, but space precludes this. This may end up as a dumping siding for older wagons that are no longer in use?

 

The siding serving the building at the very front of the layout is that which serves the waste paper building, which was where the waste paper was stored prior to reuse...who said recycling was a modern invention!

 

 

Hmmm, with all modules now designed, it appears that the layout may now be 28ft in length so far...(that's including the 3'6" module for the FY, with a 3' train table - enough for a loco and 5 wagons). Considering that maximum train length will be a loco and 4 wagons, there is a good length of run, and with the trains moving relatively slowly, it should take a while to get from one end to the other. I think there are enough sidings to shunt on the way, and at Cowan Head which has 5 destinations for wagons.

Edited December 18, 2016 by NeilHB

[Gordon A]

Does the five destinations include coal for the loco shed?

 

Gordon A

[Andrew Young]

Does the five destinations include coal for the loco shed?

 

Gordon A

Suspect that a liquid fuel would be more suitable for s 48DS and a Simplex...

 

Great plans Neil, going to be a cracker of a layout!

 

Cheers,

Andrew

[DLT]

This plan gets better and better!

[Ramblin Rich]

Liking even more Neil, but the Bowston module looks like the lower shed and other buildings are partly truncated on the viewing side - is that correct? Are you going to make them with the interiors visible...?

[NeilHB]

Liking even more Neil, but the Bowston module looks like the lower shed and other buildings are partly truncated on the viewing side - is that correct? Are you going to make them with the interiors visible...?

Hi Rich,

 

Yes that's correct - it was the only way to fit them in unfortunately. Not sure about interiors yet, need to have a think about it. For the waste paper shed I probably would do, as there wouldn't be much to see other than mounds of waste paper!

 

Cheers,

 

Neil