Realistic Speeds, starting and stopping etc.,

[Reorte]

Anyone got any steam-era shunting film in order to get a realistic impression? The bits I've seen never show the whole sequence, so don't give that good an impression of the overall operation (how long does it take to stop, reverse, and set off again even if no coupling / uncoupling / wagon brakes need touching?) I'm assuming that heritage railways don't give the same impression (and will be on the careful side). I've seen some interesting footage of 08s shunting, but not a lot from the steam era.

[Phil Bullock]

One of the deign factors in Abbotswood was to try and replicate the mix of operations as described by Coachmann

 

Freight pulls in to loop and slows to stop at signal - signals clear for main, express blasts past - signals on for main, loop clears then freight follows, leaving loop at suitable speed before accelerating away. But would take at least 5 mins for express to clear section in advance prototypically.

 

Is slow operation an issue with shunting layouts in that there is little scope for main line running I wonder?

 

And different ops will appeal differently to different groups of exhibition attenders - the General Public like to see main line trains at speed, the informed cohort will be much more appreciative of correct operations and the cognoscenti want accuracy to Nth degree.

Where does the compromise lie I wonder - and does it vary from show to show?

Phil
 

[Reorte]

One of the deign factors in Abbotswood was to try and replicate the mix of operations as described by Coachmann

 

Freight pulls in to loop and slows to stop at signal - signals clear for main, express blasts past - signals on for main, loop clears then freight follows, leaving loop at suitable speed before accelerating away. But would take at least 5 mins for express to clear section in advance prototypically.

 

Is slow operation an issue with shunting layouts in that there is little scope for main line running I wonder?

 

And different ops will appeal differently to different groups of exhibition attenders - the General Public like to see main line trains at speed, the informed cohort will be much more appreciative of correct operations and the cognoscenti want accuracy to Nth degree.

Where does the compromise lie I wonder - and does it vary from show to show?

It sounds like Abbotswood has that, well, I wouldn't even call it a compromise, with the goods train in the loop and the express blasting by, the only compromise needed there to keep everyone happy (ish!) would be to shorten the 5 minutes waiting for the section to clear.

 

High speed around curves is (to me) a reasonable compromise, I feel that there's often an unspoken acceptance to pretend that the curves aren't really as tight as they are (otherwise there would be a lot of checkrails on models), so they're part of the illusion, at least at the ends of roundy roundy layouts.

[beast66606]

Freight pulls in to loop and slows to stop at signal - signals clear for main, express blasts past - signals on for main, loop clears then freight follows, leaving loop at suitable speed before accelerating away. But would take at least 5 mins for express to clear section in advance prototypically.

 

 

Back in the good old days on Mostyn I wrote some instructions which decreed that the signals should only be cleared 2 minutes after a passenger and 3 minutes after a goods, so if a goods from the refuge was following another train it would trundle out of the siding and up to the starter at danger, which could be clearer after the appropriate time had passed and the train continue to the fiddle yard.

 

On Widnes the software panel enforces time delays to simulate movement of trains away from the modelled area.

[Phil Bullock]

Nice operating beast! The down main advanced starter on Abbotswood is less than an average train length ahead of the loop starter so a down freight never gets the starter out of the loop without getting the advanced starter off too. But not the distant! So take it easy in to the fiddle yard...

 

A bit more scope for tinkering in the up direction but same rule re distant...controlled by routes on ECoS, took a while to get them right but largely sorted except that some of the intervals between signals changing are a bit short... Especially if an up and a down route are selected simultaneously, that's one athletic bobby....

 

Phil

[250BOB]

That said, I much prefer the dial control on the Lenz LH90. Speed steps are 14, 28 and 128 on DCC. It is easy to spot where the system is set for 14 and 28, as the train leaps forward most unrealistically at each speed step.

Not if you have CV3 set at about 250 like I do quite often.!!!! It doesn't matter which speed step system I choose, 14, 28 or 128. ( I actually use 28 steps)

 

Bob

[Chris M]

Whenever I see real manoeuvring on the railway the locos always seem to be going faster than I expect. It could of course be that because I am close they seem to be going faster. The further away something is the slower it appears to be going. For instance planes always look as they are going slowly.

 

The other thing is that there is always quite a gap between each manoeuvre because the signalman has to be sure that a manoeuvre has been fully completed before he can change a the points and signals in the correct sequence ready for the next manoeuvre. At exhibitions I would not be entertained by waiting between each manoeuvre.

 

I also don't really want to see unfitted freight trains going at scale speeds on layouts; they would be boringly slow.

[roger440]

Im afraid im in the "why is everything operating so slowly" camp.

 

Not all shunting takes place at 2mph. 

 

Whenever i see these threads, this always comes to mind! 

[coachmann]

I wouldn't call that typical. I filmed a lot on the North Wales line and one driver in particular played ot the gallery. Looks like I wasn't the only one filming haha. Made for great footage and i wasn't complaining.  The Rhyl turn-back from Cardiff  in 1989 was the same with fast run-round work aplenty, but as often as not it was necessary to make up for lost time. But was this kind of "shunting" what people had in mind on this thread? 

[The Stationmaster]

Im afraid im in the "why is everything operating so slowly" camp.

 

Not all shunting takes place at 2mph. 

 

Whenever i see these threads, this always comes to mind! 

 

I'm afraid the expression which immediately comes to mind is 'what a pr*t'  - breaking Rules too while being filmed so an even bigger pr*t.  And to be honest I wouldn't really regard a sloppily conducted run-round followed by a simple propelling move as 'shunting'.

[Chris M]

What rules were being broken?

Whilst that is exceptionally fast I do think run rounds are often faster than you see on some models while the waiting time between movements for points and signals are often well less than real life.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

...I also don't really want to see unfitted freight trains going at scale speeds on layouts; they would be boringly slow.

Dependent on the line and traction, they could be seen bowling along. But variety is the spice in this, as in much else in life.

[250BOB]

What rules were being broken?

Whilst that is exceptionally fast I do think run rounds are often faster than you see on some models while the waiting time between movements for points and signals are often well less than real life.

 

And of course run rounds these days would be faster than in steam or transition era.

 

But it is really the retro rocket starts and stops with heavy freights and passenger trains that really makes it unrealistic for me.

[Chris M]

Dependent on the line and traction, they could be seen bowling along. But variety is the spice in this, as in much else in life.

Fitted freights might well bowl along but I'm pretty sure unfitted went pretty slowly. I know they always stopped at the top of gradients to have brakes put on some of the wagons and then continued down the hill with a lot of squealing from the brakes. The big concern was avoiding too much push from the wagons on the loco. At other times the brake van was used to keep all the couplings taught and avoiding any sharp snaps that would break the couplings. Even on fairly level track the train would have to be going slow enough to stop at the next signal or go into the next loop using just loco and guard's van brakes.

Unfitted freights must have been hard work.

[The Stationmaster]

What rules were being broken?

Whilst that is exceptionally fast I do think run rounds are often faster than you see on some models while the waiting time between movements for points and signals are often well less than real life.

 

Driving from the back cab with nobody visible in the leading cab and no one at the leading end of the propelling movement to give handsignals on the Driver's side.  Driver was a pr*t - as I've already said - and carrying on like that while being filmed was downright stupid.

 

Fitted freights might well bowl along but I'm pretty sure unfitted went pretty slowly. I know they always stopped at the top of gradients to have brakes put on some of the wagons and then continued down the hill with a lot of squealing from the brakes. The big concern was avoiding too much push from the wagons on the loco. 

 

Not exactly - the whole idea was that the engine would have to actually apply power in order to move the train in the first place (even once all of it was standing on the falling gradient as handbrakes were being pinned down) and ideally that the train would not move on the falling gradient unless power was applied so it would be easy to halt by simply closing the regulator/controller and applying the brake.  In practice I doubt if power was always applied to move the train in the first place and that it then simply rolled with a hope that the engine (and tender handbrake on steam engines) would be sufficient to stop it.  The theory was the very low speed would allow stopping without too much trouble - and I emphasise 'the theory'.  In reality going down a steep falling gradient with the brakes pinned down on the entire train at a speed of 40 mph (which I have experienced ) you soon realise that no brake opn earth is going to bring that to a sudden halt.

[tender]

O2 Push-Pull service arriving/departing on Camel Quay during testing prior to exhibition.

We spend quite a bit of time trying to get this right using DCC sound fitted loco's and macro controller to control the whole sequence so it's always repeatable with no user intervention required.

Feel free to comment.

 

[Steven B]

This video shows the same run-around and propelling movement at Bangor at slightly less than warp-speed:

https://youtu.be/k88_lFQY5wk?t=23

 

It's still quite a brisk movement and much faster than the below walking pace you'll often see on a model at exhibitions.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[roger440]

I'm afraid the expression which immediately comes to mind is 'what a pr*t'  - breaking Rules too while being filmed so an even bigger pr*t.  And to be honest I wouldn't really regard a sloppily conducted run-round followed by a simple propelling move as 'shunting'.

 

whilst that may well be, its what happened. And is it not a representation of real life we are attempting to emulate?

 

Ive seen more back cab propelling moves in days gone by then i care to remember. Also seen a handful that have come to grief mind!

This video shows the same run-around and propelling movement at Bangor at slightly less than warp-speed:

https://youtu.be/k88_lFQY5wk?t=23

 

It's still quite a brisk movement and much faster than the below walking pace you'll often see on a model at exhibitions.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

 

Shame you cant see which cab the driver was in at the end.

[great central]

Fitted freights might well bowl along but I'm pretty sure unfitted went pretty slowly. I know they always stopped at the top of gradients to have brakes put on some of the wagons and then continued down the hill with a lot of squealing from the brakes. The big concern was avoiding too much push from the wagons on the loco. At other times the brake van was used to keep all the couplings taught and avoiding any sharp snaps that would break the couplings. Even on fairly level track the train would have to be going slow enough to stop at the next signal or go into the next loop using just loco and guard's van brakes.

Unfitted freights must have been hard work.

GC line unfitted freights are often quoted as running at speeds well into the fifties. 

 

Edit: First hand accounts here: http://bigkris21.tripod.com/id4.html

Average speeds calculated as 30mph loaded and 33mph empty

[great central]

And of course run rounds these days would be faster than in steam or transition era.

 

But it is really the retro rocket starts and stops with heavy freights and passenger trains that really makes it unrealistic for me.

 

At Leicester Central I understand it was quite normal to have a train run into the platform at nearly 50mph, stop, uncouple, move clear and have another loco coupled, brake tested and away in around 4 minutes.

[250BOB]

At Leicester Central I understand it was quite normal to have a train run into the platform at nearly 50mph, stop, uncouple, move clear and have another loco coupled, brake tested and away in around 4 minutes.

 

50mph would be fast, but ok if the platform is long enough..........but 4 mins seems very quick to do all you say, especially if you are talking steam engines.

[250BOB]

O2 Push-Pull service arriving/departing on Camel Quay during testing prior to exhibition.

We spend quite a bit of time trying to get this right using DCC sound fitted loco's and macro controller to control the whole sequence so it's always repeatable with no user intervention required.

Feel free to comment.

 

Hi Ray,

I'll make a comment.

I could sit and watch realistic movements like yours shown on Camel Quay , all day long.  Its so right.!!!   Gently in and gently out, not too fast and not too slow.  Spot on in my book.

But all helped, or made easier with DCC too.

Let me know when your next out with the layout Ray.

Have a good Christmas

Bob.

[great central]

50mph would be fast, but ok if the platform is long enough..........but 4 mins seems very quick to do all you say, especially if you are talking steam engines.

 

The normal routine if I remember correctly was to stop the train with the buffers already compressed, fireman off the loco as it came to a stop. Unhook, move clear, fresh loco ready and waiting, back straight on compressing buffers, re-couple, brake test and ready to go. Need a decent bit of co-operation from the signaller as well of course. Pretty sure it's written up in one of the Colin Walker books. We are, of course, talking pre H&S days as well

[Chris M]

GC line unfitted freights are often quoted as running at speeds well into the fifties. 

 

Edit: First hand accounts here: http://bigkris21.tripod.com/id4.html

Average speeds calculated as 30mph loaded and 33mph empty

 

I calculate the average speed from the point to point table to be 26mph which is about what you might expect from what appears to be one of the fastest unfitted freight trips in the country. The Trains Illustrated run is probably a reasonably typical run and accurately timed. This shows a maximum of 41mph but generally speeds of high twenties or low thirties with an average speed for the run of 25mph. I think this would be about as fast as it got for unfitted freight in the UK. The stories of much higher speeds may well have happened but only very occasionally. There wouldn't have been many drivers regularly going at a speed where a distant signal against him meant "God help us".

[Chris M]

These are my calculations of speed for models in various scales. The last four columns show how many seconds it should take to travel 10ft, 3ft,20ft or 1 metre at the various trains speeds. Gives you an easy way of working out what is about right.