rafregt1 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 COULD SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME HELP I HAVE A LARGE DCC LAYOUT AND I AM HAVING A PROBLEM JOINING A PIECE OF TRACK TO THE END OF A POINT, EVERYTHING WORKS ALRIGHT UNTIL I TRY TO JOIN A PIECE OF TRACK TO THE POINT, ONE END HAS A PLASTIC FISHPLATE AND THE OTHER IS A METAL FISHPLATE AS SOON AS THE METAL FISHPLATE TOUCHES IT TRIPS THE CONTROLLER, AS SOON AS I TAKE IT AWAY AND RESET IT IS ALRIGHT,. I HAVE ALREADY DONE THE POINT TO DCC , BUT I DON,T KNOW WHAT I AM DOING WRONG, CAN ANYONE HELP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pharrc20 Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Sounds like you need to put at least one plastic insulated fishplate onto the end of the point rails linking to the piece of track. Try one on the rail that is beyond the V frog first see if it still shorts when joined up. If same try a insulated joiner on both rails linking to the new track piece. If still same you may have to put insulated joiners on both rails beyond the V frog. What sort of points are you using e.g. Peco Electrofrog or Insulfrog code 75 or 100?? HTH Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold imt Posted December 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2016 Well it might be a good idea not to SHOUT! We usually read lower case letters quite well, though I can understand that you would be disappointed with the situation. Firstly I would suggest you switch things OFF before you try to attach them together - or your hands will provide a great big earth run.I don't understand the "done the point to DCC" - there could be many ways of changing the electrical set up of the points. None of which are essential, I might add, but are recommended in some cases to increase electrical reliability - especially for display layouts. So maybe some more details, and maybe ask in the DCC questions thread? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philately Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Hi rafregt1. I was a penpusher at RAF Catterick - then the RAF Regt Depot - in the 1970s. 1. Are the fishplates fixed the correct way round, i.e. insulated one to the frog? (Sorry - I'm sure it is.) 2. Is the offending piece of track connected in any way to the rest of the layout, including being connected to other track AND being wired up to the controller output? If it is, isolate it and try again. 3. It is possible that the isolation on the other exit from the point is faulty, thereby causing a short. 4. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philately Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 4. (Finger trouble accidentally triggered previous post) It may be that the switch controlling the polarity of the frog (if you have one) is out of sync. 5. If you are powering the frog via the blades of the point, then that suggests that your rolling stock wheels may be causing the short. If none of these works, you'll need to give more specific chapter and verse! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold imt Posted December 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2016 This piece of track, is it already fixed down? Is it powered in some way, otherwise I am a bit lost as to how 2 pieces of inert rail can cause a short - unless it is hand made and the two rails are not insulated from each other? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 Sounds like you need to put at least one plastic insulated fishplate onto the end of the point rails linking to the piece of track. Try one on the rail that is beyond the V frog first see if it still shorts when joined up. If same try a insulated joiner on both rails linking to the new track piece. If still same you may have to put insulated joiners on both rails beyond the V frog. What sort of points are you using e.g. Peco Electrofrog or Insulfrog code 75 or 100?? HTH Paul yes it is peco electrofrog code 100 the piece of track is joined onto the other end to a other point which has one fishplate plastic and the other metal so I though doing the same at the other end would work the same Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 16, 2016 Author Share Posted December 16, 2016 Hi rafregt1. I was a penpusher at RAF Catterick - then the RAF Regt Depot - in the 1970s. 1. Are the fishplates fixed the correct way round, i.e. insulated one to the frog? (Sorry - I'm sure it is.) 2. Is the offending piece of track connected in any way to the rest of the layout, including being connected to other track AND being wired up to the controller output? If it is, isolate it and try again. 3. It is possible that the isolation on the other exit from the point is faulty, thereby causing a short. 4. yes I was a rockape 22 years . at raf cattrick in 1969 when I joined up Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCB Posted December 16, 2016 Share Posted December 16, 2016 Did you try insulated fishplates on both rails? Did it trip? Did the trains run or stop at this fishplate, if no and yes I reckon one of your droppers is soldered to the wrong bus bar. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Phil Bullock Posted December 16, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 16, 2016 Can I ask please - do you have a reversing loop or triangular junction in the vicinity? Phil Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 Can I ask please - do you have a reversing loop or triangular junction in the vicinity? Phil no phil what I have is a 28 ft by 2 ft complet all the way round with a main line running through a through station with branch to a freightliner terminal, and were I am having the trouble is when I am joining the last part of the loop by the station , everything else works ok , but this .,I have check the droppers from the bus bar also I have checked the fishplates are right , it is when I drive a loco across towards the point that it causes it to trip so I must be doing something wrong Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted December 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2016 Is it part of a crossover - two points connected frog to frog? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium njee20 Posted December 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2016 I have check the droppers from the bus bar also I have checked the fishplates are right , it is when I drive a loco across towards the point that it causes it to trip so I must be doing something wrong Is it when you drive a loco over the point, or as soon as you connect the point, which you said in the OP? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis32 Posted December 17, 2016 Share Posted December 17, 2016 How about seeing a track plan? That would enable us to figure out what is wrong rather than just guessing at common failures. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 Is it when you drive a loco over the point, or as soon as you connect the point, which you said in the OP? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 17, 2016 Author Share Posted December 17, 2016 i enclose some photos to try and help me explain the problem , if need and more will post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold imt Posted December 17, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted December 17, 2016 How very frustrating - we have all been there and have the T-shirt. However, sorry, but if when the loco wheels bridge that joint you get a short then the rail to the left of the joint is not the same polarity as that to the right OR you have your frog switching the wrong way. Please just get your multi-meter or line tester and run it over the area. It would still be better if you gave us a sketch showing the lines breaks and feeds. Mind you if you can do that you should be able to see why yourself, or to check you HAVE actually wired it the way you think you have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Ray H Posted December 17, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 17, 2016 Check the left most point at the centre bottom of the second image - the point where the frog isn't quite visible and where it looks as though the rails aren't connected to the next point. That should have insulated rail joiners on both the rails that only just visible. If the problem persists with that point disconnected then I'd say that you have an incorrect connection to either the adjoining left hand point (higher up in the image) or on the piece of straight track beyond that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 How very frustrating - we have all been there and have the T-shirt. However, sorry, but if when the loco wheels bridge that joint you get a short then the rail to the left of the joint is not the same polarity as that to the right OR you have your frog switching the wrong way. Please just get your multi-meter or line tester and run it over the area. It would still be better if you gave us a sketch showing the lines breaks and feeds. Mind you if you can do that you should be able to see why yourself, or to check you HAVE actually wired it the way you think you have. many thanks for you help I will try what you said Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafregt1 Posted December 18, 2016 Author Share Posted December 18, 2016 Check the left most point at the centre bottom of the second image - the point where the frog isn't quite visible and where it looks as though the rails aren't connected to the next point. That should have insulated rail joiners on both the rails that only just visible. If the problem persists with that point disconnected then I'd say that you have an incorrect connection to either the adjoining left hand point (higher up in the image) or on the piece of straight track beyond that. many thanks for help Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
diehard Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Yep, I would deduce that the current block or next block have different polarities through the metal rail joiner. If one rail is insulated then the short will happen immediately when you connect the two sections. If both rails are insulated, the short will happen when one set of trucks is in each section because each truck is connected to the same motor. So you know your getting power to the track from your feeders because there is a short, else there would be no movement of the locomotive. So it's a phase problem. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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